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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1761 - 2014-10-23 22:38:24 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:

Let's pretend this is possible. So your cloaked scouts have calculated a direction a capfleet is heading in. Not the distance, just the direction. So you now have 5 minutes to get your fleet up, setup and moving to reach the first system the hostile capfleet might be heading towards, since you're 5-15 minutes closer using your gastroscopy travel system. So both fleets wait for an hour, and your fleet pops out in system and ... nothing. Turned out they went to the next system over, or the system after that, or the system after that ... (stuff)

Space is not 2D. Draw a vector in 3D space in you will find only one constellation that crosses it. They are coming to you so your distance is much less than theirs and it takes you much less time to travel in jump and your subcaps are ready and drooling for cap kills after the first 10 minutes. You are in friendly space, so caps take much less risk when traveling through gates with a ready subcap fleet all over the target constellation. And those attackers (like TGR) who hate the jump drive animation turns their monitor off/minimize the client with his cap and stops complaining about the travel time.

Lord TGR wrote:

Andy Landen wrote:
Gate travel is not a bonus. It is a huge risk, for the most part. It is a present to interceptors. Good luck getting any dread to track and hit a well-flown interceptor! Good luck getting a cap to lock an interceptor in under 50s. Good luck getting a cap to align fast enough to warp or make any progress back toward a stargate without getting bumped!

Bring a subcap support fleet, scrub.


Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1762 - 2014-10-23 23:07:31 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

Let's pretend this is possible. So your cloaked scouts have calculated a direction a capfleet is heading in. Not the distance, just the direction. So you now have 5 minutes to get your fleet up, setup and moving to reach the first system the hostile capfleet might be heading towards, since you're 5-15 minutes closer using your gastroscopy travel system. So both fleets wait for an hour, and your fleet pops out in system and ... nothing. Turned out they went to the next system over, or the system after that, or the system after that ... (stuff)

Space is not 2D. Draw a vector in 3D space in you will find only one constellation that crosses it. They are coming to you so your distance is much less than theirs and it takes you much less time to travel in jump and your subcaps are ready and drooling for cap kills after the first 10 minutes. You are in friendly space, so caps take much less risk when traveling through gates with a ready subcap fleet all over the target constellation. And those attackers (like TGR) who hate the jump drive animation turns their monitor off/minimize the client with his cap and stops complaining about the travel time.

I just love how you started this whole project with "I don't like CCP's solution, it takes a lot of time and is boring even if we're talking about, uh, 10 minutes to go 10LY (or a 5LY roundtrip)", so you came up with an idea about requiring caps to spend a full HOUR per 5LY. And if you're bored by the gastroscopy view, turn the monitor off/minimize the client. And that's before we even start talking about how to intercept them, or how your solution doesn't take away the requirement for quick reactions in getting your own capfleet moving (and in the right direction) to even have a chance of catching them, just like they do now etc, and I'm just left wondering ... are you even reading what you're suggesting and unironically thinking "yes, this is a great idea"?

Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Gate travel is not a bonus. It is a huge risk, for the most part. It is a present to interceptors. Good luck getting any dread to track and hit a well-flown interceptor! Good luck getting a cap to lock an interceptor in under 50s. Good luck getting a cap to align fast enough to warp or make any progress back toward a stargate without getting bumped!

Bring a subcap support fleet, scrub.

Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

I have no idea what you're trying to convey with this, but it sounds ridiculous enough to not spend much time on. Try again.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1763 - 2014-10-24 00:04:53 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

What?
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1764 - 2014-10-24 01:53:08 UTC
Byson1 wrote:
(shortened) "I want my SP back" post


No, not just no, but hell no...
you train stuff in EvE knowing that full well things could change tomorrow, that's a chance we all take.

trained max shield skills only to have inactive bonuses removed from our active modules...
Drake pilots (to use their terms) got screwed with the ship and weapon rebalances...
The NPC AI changes affected using drones so badly that the rattlesnake became basically useless in it's primary offense area...
reprocessing has been changed to where even with good skills and standings, you still don't get back what you used to with the same skills...


The list goes on and on and on and on...

The "only" time that SP should be reimbursed is if something is completely removed from the game and the skill has no value at all, not just because something got changed a little bit and moves someone out of "easy mode"



just saying...

o/
Celly Smunt



Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1765 - 2014-10-24 03:57:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Lord TGR wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Bring a subcap support fleet, scrub.

Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

I have no idea what you're trying to convey with this, but it sounds ridiculous enough to not spend much time on. Try again.

I think they're daring you to blob more.

And forgetting some of the great things about carriers... refitting for higher align, pretty ok max speed, and pretty nice weapons systems for dealing with a variety of subcaps.


Basically, why not call for ever bigger wreckingballs

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1766 - 2014-10-24 09:04:56 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Bring a subcap support fleet, scrub.

Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

I have no idea what you're trying to convey with this, but it sounds ridiculous enough to not spend much time on. Try again.

I think they're daring you to blob more.

And forgetting some of the great things about carriers... refitting for higher align, pretty ok max speed, and pretty nice weapons systems for dealing with a variety of subcaps.


Basically, why not call for ever bigger wreckingballs


That is a fantastic idea - since there are between 1500 and 1800 Titans in game they could be brought to good use.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1767 - 2014-10-24 11:42:26 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

What?

The point is that if subcaps were even remotely like caps and needed support fleets just to go through a single gate, then a subcap pilot has room to speak. A BS pilot does not have to ask for a cruiser fleet escort for a single gate jump. A cruiser does not have to ask for a frigate fleet escort, etc. Each class has its use but capitals lack most of the tools needed to burn through a bubbled gate, unlike the subcaps: mwd, mjd, etc.

Quote:
I just love how you started this whole project with "I don't like CCP's solution, it takes a lot of time and is boring even if we're talking about, uh, 10 minutes to go 10LY (or a 5LY roundtrip)", so you came up with an idea about requiring caps to spend a full HOUR per 5LY. And if you're bored by the gastroscopy view, turn the monitor off/minimize the client. And that's before we even start talking about how to intercept them, or how your solution doesn't take away the requirement for quick reactions in getting your own capfleet moving (and in the right direction) to even have a chance of catching them, just like they do now etc, and I'm just left wondering ... are you even reading what you're suggesting and unironically thinking "yes, this is a great idea"?

CCP's solution does not address B-R, insta-blob "easy mode" win, jump skill nerf, capital ship nerf, black ops buff or max jump distance nerf. Mine addresses and resolves all of those issues at once. PS, those 10 minutes assume that you do not intend to do any more jumping until after the jump fatigue is gone two hours later - Details of Fatigue.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1768 - 2014-10-24 12:13:48 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
CCP's solution does not address B-R, insta-blob "easy mode" win, jump skill nerf, capital ship nerf, black ops buff or max jump distance nerf.

CCP's solution makes it a hell of a lot harder to do a repeat of B-R, and if you thought about it you'd see that the "insta-blob "easy mode" win means that the guy you're getting hotdropped by aren't somewhere else in 30 minutes, so if they decide to blob together in one place, they're leaving another part of their space more vulnerable.

As for jump skill/capital ship nerf etc etc etc, did you actually look at your own ideas? Something which'll take, say, an hour with CCP's idea, will take 400-600% more. Most of that time'll be spent either visiting gastroscopy avenue, minimized client city or offline monitor county.

Andy Landen wrote:
Mine addresses and resolves all of those issues at once.

If EVE had been a strategy game like distant worlds, star ruler, soase, etc etc etc, then your idea would've had merit. Making people sit for 2-3 hours looking at intestine TV, only to blow up a POS in a single siege cycle and spend the next 2-3 hours looking at reverse intestine TV ... doesn't have merit.

Andy Landen wrote:
PS, those 10 minutes assume that you do not intend to do any more jumping until after the jump fatigue is gone two hours later - Details of Fatigue.

No, the next jump won't need to be delayed for 2 hours, he can jump much quicker than that. So he can still continue to help protect his region for a few more hours, while your system means that a cap pilot might not even get back the same day, if he even has time to arrive in the first place.

You keep saying how CCP's solution is nerfing jump skill, capital ships etc, and yet you seem unable to see just how utterly massive of a nerf your solution is. It's not even on the same order of magnitude, and that's even before we start talking about how to use caps to fight caps.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1769 - 2014-10-24 12:26:49 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Bring a subcap support fleet, scrub.

Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."

I have no idea what you're trying to convey with this, but it sounds ridiculous enough to not spend much time on. Try again.

I think they're daring you to blob more.

And forgetting some of the great things about carriers... refitting for higher align, pretty ok max speed, and pretty nice weapons systems for dealing with a variety of subcaps.


Basically, why not call for ever bigger wreckingballs


That is a fantastic idea - since there are between 1500 and 1800 Titans in game they could be brought to good use.

Yes, according to the isk on field theory if you just have enough titans...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1770 - 2014-10-24 15:19:43 UTC
Celly S wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I hear what you are saying, but to be fair - I don't think there are a lot of folks doing what you describe. Looking at the big picture (sorry for this) but I would be for ruining your way of mining to safeguard the intent of the long distance travel objectives. Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few sort of thing.

There are A LOT of folks pushing for 10LY and there are NOT a lot of folks jumping 9LY from HS to ninja fleet mine in null. I sense other motives. I think it's fair for me to point that mining doesn't magically 'get better' beyond the 5LY barrier.


I can't speak for everyone, but i have mining areas a little over 9LY apart, there's also one place about 7LY away, and one that's a little over 3LY away..
This is why I told Greyscale that the ability to jump is more important to me than a little bit of extra drone bonuses are.

A very good point was also made about the belts that we used to use the rorqual in being hidden and therefore using them "in space" there required some defense from at least the rats, but now that those anoms are no longer hidden, it is suicide to use them out there like we used to and because of that the drone bonuses are no longer needed.

o/
Celly Smunt




You'll just have to make 2J to that 9LY away mining area. As a suggestion to pass the time while you let fatigue/cooldown timers go down.... you could.... mine to pass the time.

I'm just not getting the need for 10LY jump range for mining ops. The timer reset time is in the mining, so who cares??
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1771 - 2014-10-24 15:22:20 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
There was good suggestion at some topic , that CJ should also lock gates for capital travel.
This way their function could be keept intact , and CJ certain systems could provide interesting options.


They provide options by denying options???? Let's just get rid of the little security blankets and get down to making explosions in eve. What do you actually NEED a cyno jammer for (things that can't be done without them). I'd like a list
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1772 - 2014-10-24 15:28:53 UTC
Sweet Times wrote:
i predict a 20% falloff in subs after pheobe . vetern players will leave in their droves, any bets

this patch is the start of the end of eve



OR

The bordom and generally sucky null play that is currently literally ending eve by loss of subscriptions will change.

As folks leave, it opens up options for those who stay. The pheonix will emerge from the flames stronger and more vibrant.

The first time I seriously heard that "change X will kill eve" was warp to zero. The second was the speed nerf. Perhaps the "blue donut stomping" change will kill eve just as slowly as these did.

I think only those that truely feel entitled will leave. I won't miss them.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1773 - 2014-10-24 15:34:24 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

Let's pretend this is possible. So your cloaked scouts have calculated a direction a capfleet is heading in. Not the distance, just the direction. So you now have 5 minutes to get your fleet up, setup and moving to reach the first system the hostile capfleet might be heading towards, since you're 5-15 minutes closer using your gastroscopy travel system. So both fleets wait for an hour, and your fleet pops out in system and ... nothing. Turned out they went to the next system over, or the system after that, or the system after that ... (stuff)

Space is not 2D. Draw a vector in 3D space in you will find only one constellation that crosses it. They are coming to you so your distance is much less than theirs and it takes you much less time to travel in jump and your subcaps are ready and drooling for cap kills after the first 10 minutes. You are in friendly space, so caps take much less risk when traveling through gates with a ready subcap fleet all over the target constellation. And those attackers (like TGR) who hate the jump drive animation turns their monitor off/minimize the client with his cap and stops complaining about the travel time.

Lord TGR wrote:

Andy Landen wrote:
Gate travel is not a bonus. It is a huge risk, for the most part. It is a present to interceptors. Good luck getting any dread to track and hit a well-flown interceptor! Good luck getting a cap to lock an interceptor in under 50s. Good luck getting a cap to align fast enough to warp or make any progress back toward a stargate without getting bumped!

Bring a subcap support fleet, scrub.


Only if subcaps have the same disadvantages and ship build and fit costs, and have to call for subcap fleets to protect them every time that they have to take a stargate. Change all subcap ships: price tag to 2 bill ISK, align time to 40s, max speed to 80m/s, no prop mods, no micro jumps, no warp bubble immunity, no tracking, etc Then we'll see if you go ahead and tell cap pilots to /just/ "bring a subcap support fleet, scrub."


Dude, me and a few folks on comms have been following this back and forth. Your idea is just bad. That you can't accept that you have a bad idea is worse. He's the only one pointing out it sux, but that doesn't mean he's alone. Between your stubborn refusal to cope with your wrongness and the blatant bad in your idea, most folks are just eating popcorn and enjoying the show on this one. (I'm trying to help you here)
Chaibat
Amarr Cosa Nostra
#1774 - 2014-10-24 15:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Chaibat
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Lots of words

Thanks,
-Greyscale


[edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]



As much as I like the idea of nerfing jump drives so it's not easy to move from one end of the map to the other in 30 minutes, there are some issues that you should still consider. A number of the regions that will open up to new blood are far far away from the nearest empire entry point. Places like Omist were already pretty barren but now they'll be close to emptied as nobody's logistics will make the 15 jumps or more though half a dozen or more hostile regions.

You can at least partly address this by bringing those regions closer to empire. Perhaps tying each of them to a few systems in each of the NCP null space and then making NPC null more easily accessible to high/lowsec. Some of these regions are already close to empire space and wouldn't require anything. Others (Stain, Curse, etc) can be pulled in and used as jumping off points to deep null. Obviously, it's too late to do this now but please keep this in mind when you revamp sov in the later patch.

Definitely keep jump lag. It's awesome. I'd just like to think small, unsupported alliances can move into the wastelands created by this patch.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1775 - 2014-10-24 15:53:46 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The point is that if subcaps were even remotely like caps and needed support fleets just to go through a single gate, then a subcap pilot has room to speak. A BS pilot does not have to ask for a cruiser fleet escort for a single gate jump. A cruiser does not have to ask for a frigate fleet escort, etc. Each class has its use but capitals lack most of the tools needed to burn through a bubbled gate, unlike the subcaps: mwd, mjd, etc.

Huh. How the hell did I miss this one?

What the hell do you think would happen if we were to take out a full fleet of nothing but BSes? That's right, they would get raped by anything even remotely resembling a proper fleet. Same with BCs or frigates, etc. Subcaps need support too.

And what the hell are you talking about caps needing support for travelling through a single gate? I wasn't talking about just taking any single gate, I was talking about taking a hostile gate. You know, one with actual hostiles on the other side. I mean, I've taken a ******* freighter and derped around in deklein, the only support I had there was I used a second account to scout. Doesn't mean I would even consider taking it through a gate I knew had hostiles on it.

Caps aren't supposed to be run solo in hostile waters without support, at least not without either being part of a side that's so superior it's not even funny or without risk, so bring a subcap support fleet and stop whining like a little *****.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1776 - 2014-10-24 16:10:36 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
There was good suggestion at some topic , that CJ should also lock gates for capital travel.
This way their function could be keept intact , and CJ certain systems could provide interesting options.


They provide options by denying options???? Let's just get rid of the little security blankets and get down to making explosions in eve. What do you actually NEED a cyno jammer for (things that can't be done without them). I'd like a list

I see no problems with cynojammers as they are implemented today. They let the defenders afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them, except if they take down the jammer. Again, that's an added tactical option.

I'm not so sure about allowing or denying caps from taking gates when there are jammers up. On the one hand the way things have worked so far wrt the jammer has been okay, on the other hand the defender should be able to have the upper hand since they're already in system and can setup whereever they want. On the third hand, if I understand CCP correctly, fights in and of themselves shouldn't be as important in determining sov in the future as it is now, so it might very well be that it doesn't matter all that much anyways. Time'll tell.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1777 - 2014-10-24 16:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
Lord TGR wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
There was good suggestion at some topic , that CJ should also lock gates for capital travel.
This way their function could be keept intact , and CJ certain systems could provide interesting options.


They provide options by denying options???? Let's just get rid of the little security blankets and get down to making explosions in eve. What do you actually NEED a cyno jammer for (things that can't be done without them). I'd like a list

I see no problems with cynojammers as they are implemented today. They let the defenders afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them, except if they take down the jammer. Again, that's an added tactical option.

I'm not so sure about allowing or denying caps from taking gates when there are jammers up. On the one hand the way things have worked so far wrt the jammer has been okay, on the other hand the defender should be able to have the upper hand since they're already in system and can setup whereever they want. On the third hand, if I understand CCP correctly, fights in and of themselves shouldn't be as important in determining sov in the future as it is now, so it might very well be that it doesn't matter all that much anyways. Time'll tell.


I'd like a list of what they are needed for. Concrete things. I want facts not feelings and opinions. Once we get the facts down, then it will be easier to discuss opinions and what not.

EDIT: So far I see 'afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them' which isn't really a need. It may be a 'nice to have' for some folks, but it's not a need.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1778 - 2014-10-24 16:52:38 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
There was good suggestion at some topic , that CJ should also lock gates for capital travel.
This way their function could be keept intact , and CJ certain systems could provide interesting options.


They provide options by denying options???? Let's just get rid of the little security blankets and get down to making explosions in eve. What do you actually NEED a cyno jammer for (things that can't be done without them). I'd like a list

I see no problems with cynojammers as they are implemented today. They let the defenders afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them, except if they take down the jammer. Again, that's an added tactical option.

I'm not so sure about allowing or denying caps from taking gates when there are jammers up. On the one hand the way things have worked so far wrt the jammer has been okay, on the other hand the defender should be able to have the upper hand since they're already in system and can setup whereever they want. On the third hand, if I understand CCP correctly, fights in and of themselves shouldn't be as important in determining sov in the future as it is now, so it might very well be that it doesn't matter all that much anyways. Time'll tell.


I'd like a list of what they are needed for. Concrete things. I want facts not feelings and opinions. Once we get the facts down, then it will be easier to discuss opinions and what not.

EDIT: So far I see 'afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them' which isn't really a need. It may be a 'nice to have' for some folks, but it's not a need.

The biggest reason I'd want cynojammers, especially if caps can take gates, is to force them to funnel through a chokepoint I control, instead of just cynoing directly in to a system, siege and blow up something, then GTFO. So basically, added strategic depth, and a defensive bonus.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1779 - 2014-10-24 17:17:40 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
There was good suggestion at some topic , that CJ should also lock gates for capital travel.
This way their function could be keept intact , and CJ certain systems could provide interesting options.


They provide options by denying options???? Let's just get rid of the little security blankets and get down to making explosions in eve. What do you actually NEED a cyno jammer for (things that can't be done without them). I'd like a list

I see no problems with cynojammers as they are implemented today. They let the defenders afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them, except if they take down the jammer. Again, that's an added tactical option.

I'm not so sure about allowing or denying caps from taking gates when there are jammers up. On the one hand the way things have worked so far wrt the jammer has been okay, on the other hand the defender should be able to have the upper hand since they're already in system and can setup whereever they want. On the third hand, if I understand CCP correctly, fights in and of themselves shouldn't be as important in determining sov in the future as it is now, so it might very well be that it doesn't matter all that much anyways. Time'll tell.


I'd like a list of what they are needed for. Concrete things. I want facts not feelings and opinions. Once we get the facts down, then it will be easier to discuss opinions and what not.

EDIT: So far I see 'afford to wield caps without too much fear of the other side being able to drop on them' which isn't really a need. It may be a 'nice to have' for some folks, but it's not a need.

The biggest reason I'd want cynojammers, especially if caps can take gates, is to force them to funnel through a chokepoint I control, instead of just cynoing directly in to a system, siege and blow up something, then GTFO. So basically, added strategic depth, and a defensive bonus.


Sounds like a reasonable thing to want. I will counter that with it helps to stagnate null. It's too easy to build a system that has an unreasonable defensive capability. Especially with the jump changes. I'm feeling they may start to outlive thier purpose.

As far as tactical cyno jamming, and given I haven't studied eve for exploitation areas, I'm sure there as some key systems that could be cyno jammed to greatly limit cyno travel across eve. My reasoning is that if you can make a choke point, then you damn sure can make a wall ships can't cyno past. I'm all about limiting power projection, but we need to be reasonable and allow cap ships to do what cap ships were meant to do.

As far as cyno in - blow something up - GTFO. I'm not seeing it. Even getting rid of all but the final timers... a POS and an outpost still have RF timers. You have a built in time to mount a defense before something gets blown up.... heck at present you have multiple timers to blow most things up. I guess I hear what you're saying, but I'm not seeing it.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#1780 - 2014-10-24 17:41:48 UTC
And i repeat myself - its a CYNOjammer - not a jump/warp/gate whatever jammer. Its meant to stop a fleet from entering a strategical system via directly cynoing into it - not more not less.

Back in 2012 or so there was a suggestion for mobile cyno jammers - refresh that idea in the probably still existing thread if you want more mobile options to stop a fleet but dont try to make a perfectly fine module into something completely perverted again.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty