These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Out of Retirement.

Author
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#41 - 2014-10-15 17:19:47 UTC
3ll3 wrote:
Ms Kim, those that don't evolve are as I am sure you may or may not agree destined to grow extinct


In my experience intelligent design trumps evolution every time




Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

3ll3
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-10-17 04:23:05 UTC
Mr Blake what you say some times may appear true from your experience and prospective but from my own that not quite so.
Many a design has originated from nature, for example the ability to warp long distinctness would have been impossible with out the space flight which in turn originates from atmospheric flight.
As such Man/Woman invented artificial flight from watching and desiring to fly like those animals who possessed the ability of self powered flight and invented aircraft, and of course some animals evolved to fly through necessity so it boils back down to evolution.

BUT then as I said that's just my point of view
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#43 - 2014-10-21 01:49:20 UTC
3ll3 wrote:

Now as for the bias animal thing in regards to the subject matter of the Gallenteans I can only conclude that you look upon them as or the majority of them as being sub-human or inhuman?...why is this?
I do not mean what is the State creed in regards to the Federation But why YOU believe this to be so?

The State creed in regards of the Federation was rather soft before I became a capsuleer and the war has started. Of course, there was slight animosity towards them in the air, nonacceptance of their culture in general, and they were like unicorns among us, and they weren't as respectful as we wanted. Still, there were a lot of steps towards them to solve "problems", to make friends, to work together against common problems... I have even participated in training together with them, and they seemed... interesting.

However, later, I saw their true faces. And after I became a capsuleer, I wasn't busy 110% time anymore, and I had a lot of residual time, that I have used to contemplate, to think, and a lot about gallenteans, to study their behaviour, their history, ideas... I tried to understand, why they did all these things, and I came to conclusion... that everything about them was wrong. They weren't just humans, they are the filth, that contaminates our space and brings nothing but mischief.
And later events have just confirmed my point of view.


3ll3 wrote:

First off what one calls a terrorist another may well call a freedom fighter, it's all in what particular prospective you view it in.
As for the other part it falls again once more how your viewing it, to some its true to others it is not.

Personally, I would prefer to be named a terrorist, than a freedom fighter.
Terrorism is just poor man's war. Terrorists target to inflict fear by targeting non-combatants. This rarely works, and it is not professional approach to warfare, but still, it is a viable form of warfare.

Freedom fighters, on other hand... they are just savages, fighting for the most disgusting idea ever invented by humans. They are killing and destroying not just to inflict fear, like terrorists, or to achieve military objective like us soldiers, but to bring freedom, which is chaos and destruction itself. They are soulless animals, primitives and savages.

And to those, who want to get freedom, I can say only this: grab a shuttle, land on some indigenous life planet, leave all your clothes and posessions in that shuttle, self destruct it, and live with animals like an animal! Then you will get your freedom, and there is no need to kill anyone for this.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#44 - 2014-10-22 18:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Diana Kim wrote:
However, later, I saw their true faces. And after I became a capsuleer, I wasn't busy 110% time anymore, and I had a lot of residual time, that I have used to contemplate, to think, and a lot about gallenteans, to study their behaviour, their history, ideas... I tried to understand, why they did all these things, and I came to conclusion... that everything about them was wrong. They weren't just humans, they are the filth, that contaminates our space and brings nothing but mischief.
And later events have just confirmed my point of view.


Could you elaborate on these two points? First that "everything about us is wrong" and that we are "filth that contaminates your space and brings nothing but mischief" and second the "later events" that confirmed your point of view. I ask because these are normally the kinds of statements one qualifies if they intend to be taken seriously.

Also, before you respond, I warn you in advance that I will quite probably attempt a rebuttal to your statements so basing them in fact rather than opinion and conjecture would be greatly appreciated.


Diana Kim wrote:
Freedom fighters, on other hand... they are just savages, fighting for the most disgusting idea ever invented by humans. They are killing and destroying not just to inflict fear, like terrorists, or to achieve military objective like us soldiers, but to bring freedom, which is chaos and destruction itself. They are soulless animals, primitives and savages.


Actually, I think this might explain a lot and answer some of my questions. I am sorry you have this impression of "freedom" since clearly your definition of it and my definition of it differ greatly.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#45 - 2014-10-23 21:51:53 UTC
3ll3 wrote:

It's been so long since taking my leave to find a lost love, heh never did find her in the end, doubt any one even remembers who I am which is fine as it means I can start with a brand new clean slate might even try my hand at being a miner this time.
You know the simple life none of the high pace slaver pod popping action from the old days just me my ship and couple of mining lasers and a few drones to wind the time away witling away at space rocks.


I remember you. You abandoned the cause of terrorism for love?

Nobody ever starts with a clean slate. The best you can do is apologise and make amends for past actions.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#46 - 2014-10-24 04:09:52 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:

Could you elaborate on these two points? First that "everything about us is wrong" and that we are "filth that contaminates your space and brings nothing but mischief" and second the "later events" that confirmed your point of view. I ask because these are normally the kinds of statements one qualifies if they intend to be taken seriously.

Also, before you respond, I warn you in advance that I will quite probably attempt a rebuttal to your statements so basing them in fact rather than opinion and conjecture would be greatly appreciated.

I think I will retain from answering the first part, as it would require quite a lot of things to say about and would need a separate discussion, which I will probably do as I find a bit more time.

For "later events" I, however, can list well known facts. I hope that will saturate your interest.

1. Suicide attack of Federal Nyx-class supercarrier on Malkalen Station with peace conference between the State and the Federation. The Nyx was piloted by well-known Federal admiral.

2. Documented racism of Gallente citizens on Caldari Prime against Caldari peoples, with destruction of religious and historical centers, defacing of monuments, attacking citizens by racial bias, and even inscriptions and calls to "Exterminate all Caldari"

3. Biased Gallente police on Caldari Prime during these events, as no one of Gallente racists were detained, but Caldari protesters were beaten. This was depicted in news during that time.

4. Gallente hidden prison facilities, where they physically torture Caldari POWs of seven Caldari Megacorporations (Ishukone prisoners usually are mysteriously not present in these facilities) with incredibly anti-humane approach, without providing them life necessities like food. They destroy whole facility if you would succeed to release prisoners from one part of it, killing everyone to prevent Caldari from escaping.

5. Gallente death squads, operating in occupied Black Rise systems.

6. Operation "Highlander":
6.1 The operation has started with ground assault on Caldari Prime, that was outside of depicted boundaries of conflict
6.2 The gallente fleet attacked Caldari fleet only after the Caldari fleet entered low orbit to support ground fighting, so as many debris would fall on Caldari Prime as possible.
6.3 Open lies, that goal was just to destroy Shiigeru, and not to cause devastation to the planet, as the ship could have been attacked any time without ground operation, that would prevent crashlanding or firing of the ship to the planet.
6.4 If the gallente claims that the ship was to destroy peoples on Caldari Prime were true, instead of providing military support, then they deliberately tried to force it to fire on the planet to cause as many civilian lives as possible, by provoking it with all means necessary before actually attacking the ship itself.
6.5 The whole operation was a military crime and violation of a treaty

As you can see, I presented just facts with little to no of my opinion, allowing myself just to speculate to interpret facts about p.6, as they were following with lots of lies and false claims from Federal side.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that this media won't allow me to write clearly everything that I think about gallenteans, and what I would very like to say out loud about each of these facts. CONCORD have rather strict rules about that.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#47 - 2014-10-24 11:52:31 UTC
Thank you for the response, Mademoiselle Kim.

If you could provide me with GalNet reference links to the events you've sited, it would be appreciated. Not that I doubt your claims but simply that it would show me from where you are getting your information and allow me to review each incident fairly rather than counter with my own bias.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#48 - 2014-10-24 12:42:36 UTC
These events were widely described in the media. For some of them (like attack of Noir's ship FNS Wandering Saint on the Malkalen Station) there are even live footage.

As for 4, they are known only to the State, where they are situated. I guess their presence Federation hides even from its own citizens. But you, as a capsuleer, can check their existence yourself if you come to Black Rise and can operate probe launcher: they hide themselves just like most of pirates - in deadspace pockets. I myself has raided several of such facilities and recovered these peoples.

For p.5 you will have to look through the State media again, because the Federation media will definitely won't speak about it.

And besides depiction in the media, I was myself present in Luminaire during p.6, participated in the fight and saw what was happening first-hand, from the very start to the very end, that's why I allowed myself to speak a bit more than usual and list facts that weren't depicted in media for this "operation".

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#49 - 2014-10-24 13:00:36 UTC
I appreciate your candidness.

The FNS Wandering Saint and the Malkalen Disaster...

You've probably heard this before but the truth is that Admiral Noir was an avid supporter of peace between Gallente and Caldari for most of his career, it was the reason he was assigned to that position during the conference. His sudden betrayal of the peace initiative and assault on Malkalen blindsided the Federal Navy and many lives were lost on both sides. I am truly sorry that such a promising day was soured by the betrayal of one man and the lives lost because of his actions.

However, this event was in no way sanctioned by the Federation and many Gallente were as repulsed by those events as you are; myself included.

I will try and verify your reports on point 4. Anything known only by the State is obviously beyond my knowledge at this point in time but I will take your word on good faith and investigate it myself. I will also be investigating similar activities within Federation borders being practiced by State forces (if such activities are occurring).

Point 5 is...controversial, at best. "Death squad" is a pretty vague term and "occupied" territories would suggest that these are territories under Federal sovereignty that the State is occupying due to the war effort. If that's the case then hostility is to be expected, just as any occupying force would be opposed by the citizens of the State.

Operation Highlander...a dark day all around. I, myself, wasn't present. However, I've also never heard anyone state that the Federation was intentionally trying to cause as much civilian death as possible nor is there any concrete proof of many of the "facts" you've stated. As you stated, you allowed yourself greater liberty in discussing this even because you were present but that means these are largely your perspective and not necessarily the truth of the situation.

I do not mean to be dismissive as I am truly seeking to understand the truth of the situations you have reported, but given that your report involves mostly State media and your personal experience and opinions, it is difficult to accept the veracity of them. I will investigate on my end and see what turns up.

Thank you.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#50 - 2014-10-24 14:33:44 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
I appreciate your candidness.

The FNS Wandering Saint and the Malkalen Disaster...

You've probably heard this before but the truth is that Admiral Noir was an avid supporter of peace between Gallente and Caldari for most of his career, it was the reason he was assigned to that position during the conference. His sudden betrayal of the peace initiative and assault on Malkalen blindsided the Federal Navy and many lives were lost on both sides. I am truly sorry that such a promising day was soured by the betrayal of one man and the lives lost because of his actions.

Exactly this his behavior and lies, together with some personal experience with gallenteans make me feel about them what I feel now.

Liam Antolliere wrote:

However, this event was in no way sanctioned by the Federation

I don't have any means to verify or deny this. This is just your opinion, Mr. Antolliere, and my opinion contradicts yours.

Liam Antolliere wrote:

I will try and verify your reports on point 4. Anything known only by the State is obviously beyond my knowledge at this point in time but I will take your word on good faith and investigate it myself. I will also be investigating similar activities within Federation borders being practiced by State forces (if such activities are occurring).

I will look forward for results about amount of found Caldari and Gallente hidden prisoner facilities, as a comparison of treatment of POWs by Caldari and Gallente sides.

Liam Antolliere wrote:

Point 5 is...controversial, at best. "Death squad" is a pretty vague term and "occupied" territories would suggest that these are territories under Federal sovereignty that the State is occupying due to the war effort. If that's the case then hostility is to be expected, just as any occupying force would be opposed by the citizens of the State.

The Black Rise is Caldari region, and many systems are oppressed by Gallentean occupants.
There is a theory, that Gallente do racial clearing raid to repopulate region with gallentean colonists instead of Caldari. However, this is just a theory, even that I believe in it.
The existence of Death Squads is, although, was widely depicted in the State media for quite long period of time.

Liam Antolliere wrote:

Operation Highlander...a dark day all around. I, myself, wasn't present. However, I've also never heard anyone state that the Federation was intentionally trying to cause as much civilian death as possible nor is there any concrete proof of many of the "facts" you've stated. As you stated, you allowed yourself greater liberty in discussing this even because you were present but that means these are largely your perspective and not necessarily the truth of the situation.

Okay, let me list just pure facts about it:

1. There was a treaty, that Caldari Prime was going to the State autorities after we liberated it from gallentean occupants, thanks to our greatest Hero and former Executer Tibus Heth, let his name always shine future for us.
2. According to the CEWPA, Caldari Prime and Luminaire wasn't included in the conflict between the Federation and the State as disputed territories.
3. Our fleets in Luminaire didn't provoke or attack any Federal property after the treaty has been signed. The coexistence of Federal and State vessels was rather peaceful in this system disregarding war raging in low security systems.
4. The operation began with illegal transporting of Federal combat lifeforce on the planet, and the fighting started down there.
5. The ground operations forced the Caldari fleet took position in low orbit
6. Neither the Titan, nor other ships from Caldari group never fire on the planet surface, despite Federation claims that it was their purpose
7. Federals claimed they were just going to destroy CN Shiigeru
8. But no attempts were made, while the ship was idle with very small support fleet
9. Instead, attack on ship was executed when the huge ship as a titan entered low planet orbit and was supported by larger capital fleet
10. You can see consequences of the titan scaring our planet yourself, if you will fly to Luminaire.
11. The scar that you will see on our planet - it was done by hands of gallenteans and their "Highlander" operation.

And now, not so fact, but... just my perception, but can you see coincidence between the name of the operation and the Titan falling down on Kaalakiota peaks?..

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Liam Antolliere
Liberty Vanguard
#51 - 2014-10-24 14:57:33 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

1. There was a treaty, that Caldari Prime was going to the State autorities after we liberated it from gallentean occupants, thanks to our greatest Hero and former Executer Tibus Heth, let his name always shine future for us.
2. According to the CEWPA, Caldari Prime and Luminaire wasn't included in the conflict between the Federation and the State as disputed territories.
3. Our fleets in Luminaire didn't provoke or attack any Federal property after the treaty has been signed. The coexistence of Federal and State vessels was rather peaceful in this system disregarding war raging in low security systems.
4. The operation began with illegal transporting of Federal combat lifeforce on the planet, and the fighting started down there.
5. The ground operations forced the Caldari fleet took position in low orbit
6. Neither the Titan, nor other ships from Caldari group never fire on the planet surface, despite Federation claims that it was their purpose
7. Federals claimed they were just going to destroy CN Shiigeru
8. But no attempts were made, while the ship was idle with very small support fleet
9. Instead, attack on ship was executed when the huge ship as a titan entered low planet orbit and was supported by larger capital fleet
10. You can see consequences of the titan scaring our planet yourself, if you will fly to Luminaire.
11. The scar that you will see on our planet - it was done by hands of gallenteans and their "Highlander" operation.

And now, not so fact, but... just my perception, but can you see coincidence between the name of the operation and the Titan falling down on Kaalakiota peaks?..


First, I want to state that I am in no way trying to disregard the lives lost or the damage done to your home planet as a result of Operation Highlander. Quite the contrary, it saddens me when civilians pay the price for military actions and saddens me when soldiers sacrifice their lives for the whims of politicians.

I wish I could put into words why, even with a treaty, the presence of a Titan so close to our home planet created a sense of unrest and unease in civilians and how that had a major effect on public opinion of the situation. Public opinion which mandates government action in a democracy.

With that said, even if the public opinion was that of unrest and a desire to see the titan removed - civilians and even run-of-the-mill soldiers do not dictate the military operations and course of action. That the operation involved capsuleers on both sides and naval forces on both sides and was orchestrated in the manner that it was creates a series of questions and a situation that rapidly spirals out of control. I can personally state that many Gallente I know watched in silent horror as that titan fell toward the planet - that was never our desire. I do not know if it was the military's desire...I can only speculate.

What I can do for certainty is express my sincere sorrow that so much death and destruction was caused at the hands of the Gallente military forces - death on both sides of the battlefield and death of civilians who were helpless to prevent it.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

3ll3
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-10-25 19:48:23 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:

I remember you. You abandoned the cause of terrorism for love?

Nobody ever starts with a clean slate. The best you can do is apologise and make amends for past actions.


Apologise for what?
For following my heart?
For doing what in my view point is correct and true?

I would need first to feel ashamed before feeling the need to apologise, you say Terrorism where I call it protection of Minmatar borders form those who sought to perform acts that in the Minmatar are deemed illegal, and no I still help out from time to time by bringing aid to those slaves who sought and obtained freedom through their own means or the means of others.

I end my reply with this, if a man/Woman or Child wishes not to be a slave I see no reason why i should not aid them.
If they wish to be slaves then I will wish them luck in their chosen path, as such I see no acts of terrorism or shame worthy of asking any forgiveness.
I thank you for your words Mr Merdaneth and bid you good day sir.



Diana Kim wrote:
The State creed in regards of the Federation was rather soft before I became a capsuleer and the war has started. Of course, there was slight animosity towards them in the air, nonacceptance of their culture in general, and they were like unicorns among us, and they weren't as respectful as we wanted. Still, there were a lot of steps towards them to solve "problems", to make friends, to work together against common problems... I have even participated in training together with them, and they seemed... interesting.

However, later, I saw their true faces. And after I became a capsuleer, I wasn't busy 110% time anymore, and I had a lot of residual time, that I have used to contemplate, to think, and a lot about gallenteans, to study their behaviour, their history, ideas... I tried to understand, why they did all these things, and I came to conclusion... that everything about them was wrong. They weren't just humans, they are the filth, that contaminates our space and brings nothing but mischief.
And later events have just confirmed my point of view.


Which is your prerogative to think and feel as you wish to with your own perspective, many from the Federation would feel the same about the state though to be honest I feel that in my own view both sides are as bad each other, I 'd laugh if it where not the for the fact of so many lives being wasted on both sides by conflict.
Personally, I would prefer to be named a terrorist, than a freedom fighter.
Terrorism is just poor man's war. Terrorists target to inflict fear by targeting non-combatants. This rarely works, and it is not professional approach to warfare, but still, it is a viable form of warfare.

Diana Kim wrote:
Personally, I would prefer to be named a terrorist, than a freedom fighter.
Terrorism is just poor man's war. Terrorists target to inflict fear by targeting non-combatants. This rarely works, and it is not professional approach to warfare, but still, it is a viable form of warfare.

Freedom fighters, on other hand... they are just savages, fighting for the most disgusting idea ever invented by humans. They are killing and destroying not just to inflict fear, like terrorists, or to achieve military objective like us soldiers, but to bring freedom, which is chaos and destruction itself. They are soulless animals, primitives and savages.

And to those, who want to get freedom, I can say only this: grab a shuttle, land on some indigenous life planet, leave all your clothes and posessions in that shuttle, self destruct it, and live with animals like an animal! Then you will get your freedom, and there is no need to kill anyone for this.


For any race whose resources are not as great as their enemy I can see how some in the Minmatar perform such acts which I really don't condone, while mos others in the Minmatar rely on gorilla warfare instead which is more efficient, viable and effective against a strong better financed opponent.
As for your opinion about any one being a freedom fighter being mere savages I have to wonder if your opinion is biased because of the word Freedom is used in the description?..I ask this because you have shown a psychological tick in regards to this word and your own personal view of the words meaning which you have on more than one occasion demonstration.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#53 - 2014-10-26 04:38:27 UTC
3ll3 wrote:

As for your opinion about any one being a freedom fighter being mere savages I have to wonder if your opinion is biased because of the word Freedom is used in the description?..I ask this because you have shown a psychological tick in regards to this word and your own personal view of the words meaning which you have on more than one occasion demonstration.

Unfortunately, this is true.
I don't mind the "fighter" part, but with the word "Freedom" it becomes quite disgusting and repulsive combination.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

3ll3
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-10-27 19:27:15 UTC
Hmnn!....I see, well that's good to know for future references for further communications on the I.G.S. after all it is not my intent to cause disrespect to any one; as such I can now leave out or replace this particular Trigger Word with one more suitable as its.
Though I apologise for using the trigger word so many times previously and causing you to react negatively because of it.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#55 - 2014-10-28 01:44:35 UTC
3ll3 wrote:


... while mos others in the Minmatar rely on gorilla warfare...


Our Brutor brothers are not apes!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

3ll3
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-10-28 19:18:04 UTC
Mr Egivand it would appear you have misinterpreted what was said, the term gorilla warfare refers to style of military tactics that allow a military force to face off against an opponent who has either grater numbers, resources or technology in an efficient and effective manner via the use of irregular warfare in which the main stay of tactics such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility to fight a larger and superior military force.

Oh an d i should apologize to all for the typo, I belive the word I used
Quote:
mor
should have had an 'e' on the end.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#57 - 2014-10-28 20:03:07 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
3ll3 wrote:


... while mos others in the Minmatar rely on gorilla warfare...


Our Brutor brothers are not apes!

Lack of proof draws your claims void.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#58 - 2014-10-28 23:35:55 UTC
3ll3 wrote:
Mr Egivand it would appear you have misinterpreted what was said, the term gorilla warfare refers to style of military tactics that allow a military force to face off against an opponent who has either grater numbers, resources or technology in an efficient and effective manner via the use of irregular warfare in which the main stay of tactics such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, hit-and-run tactics, and mobility to fight a larger and superior military force.

Oh an d i should apologize to all for the typo, I belive the word I used
Quote:
mor
should have had an 'e' on the end.


Then it is spelled 'Guerilla'.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#59 - 2014-10-29 07:43:25 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
3ll3 wrote:


... while mos others in the Minmatar rely on gorilla warfare...


Our Brutor brothers are not apes!

Lack of proof draws your claims void.


Lack of disproof voids your claims.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Previous page123