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Humble request to revisit warp speeds for BS / BC's

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Maraner
The Executioners
#121 - 2014-10-23 20:13:33 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
There is nothing preventing you from accepting the tradeoffs currently inherent to the class. There is nothing preventing you from mitigating these problems. There is no reason not to use them when you know you are going in balls deep into a tough fight to engage enemy assets, be they close to home or far away. The issue is much more with the lack of willingness to attack the infrastructure of the enemy to pull them to you, and/or with the short sighted style of "roam for prey" rather than finding a suitable bit of prey close by and then jumping into the pwnmobiles as appropriate to the numbers and preferred ship.




No other ship type except BS and BC need to compromise their fits with warp speed mods / rigs to keep up.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2014-10-23 20:16:02 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.


Best part of this is that I am putting together a dreadnought capable of roaming with a cruiser gang while he laments over having to use a single rig slot to boost his battleships warp speed.
Maraner
The Executioners
#123 - 2014-10-23 20:17:49 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.



I'm asking for a buff from 2.0 to 3.0 or even to 2.5.

Not for a kidney or your moms addresss.

I also find it worrisome that CCP nerf a ships stats and then introduces modules to bring them back to what they were. We like to fly mixed ship fleet types. I can still do that at the moment, never said we couldn't

we just need to give up trimarks or slave sets to do it.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#124 - 2014-10-23 20:20:46 UTC
Maraner wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.



I'm asking for a buff from 2.0 to 3.0 or even to 2.5.

Not for a kidney or your moms addresss.

I also find it worrisome that CCP nerf a ships stats and then introduces modules to bring them back to what they were. We like to fly mixed ship fleet types. I can still do that at the moment, never said we couldn't

we just need to give up trimarks or slave sets to do it.

And if you need these to get comparable performance out of your ships, then your theory crafting and fitting teams are bad, or you straight up don't have them.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Maraner
The Executioners
#125 - 2014-10-23 20:21:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.


Best part of this is that I am putting together a dreadnought capable of roaming with a cruiser gang while he laments over having to use a single rig slot to boost his battleships warp speed.



Yes I do.

OFC comparing dreds and BS is completely relevant. They have so many simularities what with both being able to go into seige and jump etc.

This thread is about enabling BS to keep up with other sub cap ships whitout having to compromise their fits. It is also discussing the relative rarity of them.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2014-10-23 20:24:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Then you haven't met a good megathron pilot.


Do you think more people would fly them if they were to cost less? Talking about battleship in general, not only megathron of course. Following that, would more good BS pilots potentially emerge if the ship became more popular?


Unlikely. People will spend battleship money on t3 and pirate/faction cruisers right now. Its a mental issue rather than isk.


The learning process of cruiser basic flight is learned in 30 million fitted ships or something around that. The learning process of battleship flight start with a naked hull around 200 millions. This is why I ask if you think the process might be less prevalent. Learning to be good in any ships will obviously involve losses. Are people willing to write off 200 mill hulls + fitting cost into a learning experiment a part of the community even consider (rightfully or not) to be a waste?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#127 - 2014-10-23 20:25:25 UTC
Maraner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.


Best part of this is that I am putting together a dreadnought capable of roaming with a cruiser gang while he laments over having to use a single rig slot to boost his battleships warp speed.



Yes I do.

OFC comparing dreds and BS is completely relevant. They have so many simularities what with both being able to go into seige and jump etc.

This thread is about enabling BS to keep up with other sub cap ships whitout having to compromise their fits. It is also discussing the relative rarity of them.


And I just pointed out that dreadnoughts can keep up with cruisers and remain viable come November.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2014-10-23 20:26:56 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Then you haven't met a good megathron pilot.


Do you think more people would fly them if they were to cost less? Talking about battleship in general, not only megathron of course. Following that, would more good BS pilots potentially emerge if the ship became more popular?


Unlikely. People will spend battleship money on t3 and pirate/faction cruisers right now. Its a mental issue rather than isk.


The learning process of cruiser basic flight is learned in 30 million fitted ships or something around that. The learning process of battleship flight start with a naked hull around 200 millions. This is why I ask if you think the process might be less prevalent. Learning to be good in any ships will obviously involve losses. Are people willing to write off 200 mill hulls + fitting cost into a learning experiment a part of the community even consider (rightfully or not) to be a waste?


That's up to them. For me its worth every penny and has provided me with 4 years of content.
Maraner
The Executioners
#129 - 2014-10-23 20:28:14 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.



I'm asking for a buff from 2.0 to 3.0 or even to 2.5.

Not for a kidney or your moms addresss.

I also find it worrisome that CCP nerf a ships stats and then introduces modules to bring them back to what they were. We like to fly mixed ship fleet types. I can still do that at the moment, never said we couldn't

we just need to give up trimarks or slave sets to do it.

And if you need these to get comparable performance out of your ships, then your theory crafting and fitting teams are bad, or you straight up don't have them.



It amazes me that you feel you need to defend so stridently a ship class that has become less and less relevant over the last few years. I undertand how the hyperspatial rigs work, even use them on some of my BS fits. PLus those clone things, yep know about them as well.

This thread has been discussing BS warp speeds because at the moment they tend to be the only ship type that HAVE to fit them to warp around at reasonable speeds. This is an effective nerf to either their EHP or DPS output.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#130 - 2014-10-23 20:30:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Then you haven't met a good megathron pilot.


Do you think more people would fly them if they were to cost less? Talking about battleship in general, not only megathron of course. Following that, would more good BS pilots potentially emerge if the ship became more popular?


Unlikely. People will spend battleship money on t3 and pirate/faction cruisers right now. Its a mental issue rather than isk.


The learning process of cruiser basic flight is learned in 30 million fitted ships or something around that. The learning process of battleship flight start with a naked hull around 200 millions. This is why I ask if you think the process might be less prevalent. Learning to be good in any ships will obviously involve losses. Are people willing to write off 200 mill hulls + fitting cost into a learning experiment a part of the community even consider (rightfully or not) to be a waste?

If you start by learning the basics of how to make such a ship perform in PVE (yes, incursions) and then move to learning the basics of PVP with the smaller ships, and vice versa, many many of these losses can be avoided, and done in this order, a pilot should be capable of earning the isk for the fittings back in a relatively short period of time, not to menition PVP ships ought to be insured, covering most of the cost of the hull anyway.

Between these two things, it is easily possible to get pilots trained into battleships for PvP in a period not much longer than it takes to make a decent cruiser PvPer at only marginally higher sustained cost, with only 2-4x the initial investment of isk.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#131 - 2014-10-23 20:31:47 UTC
Maraner wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.



I'm asking for a buff from 2.0 to 3.0 or even to 2.5.

Not for a kidney or your moms addresss.

I also find it worrisome that CCP nerf a ships stats and then introduces modules to bring them back to what they were. We like to fly mixed ship fleet types. I can still do that at the moment, never said we couldn't

we just need to give up trimarks or slave sets to do it.

And if you need these to get comparable performance out of your ships, then your theory crafting and fitting teams are bad, or you straight up don't have them.



It amazes me that you feel you need to defend so stridently a ship class that has become less and less relevant over the last few years. I undertand how the hyperspatial rigs work, even use them on some of my BS fits. PLus those clone things, yep know about them as well.

This thread has been discussing BS warp speeds because at the moment they tend to be the only ship type that HAVE to fit them to warp around at reasonable speeds. This is an effective nerf to either their EHP or DPS output.

Which should be addressed as concerns for those issues. The underlying false assumption of "we must keep up in warp out of the box" is what baltech and I are trying to combat here, not better battleships.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Maraner
The Executioners
#132 - 2014-10-23 20:32:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.


Best part of this is that I am putting together a dreadnought capable of roaming with a cruiser gang while he laments over having to use a single rig slot to boost his battleships warp speed.



Yes I do.

OFC comparing dreds and BS is completely relevant. They have so many simularities what with both being able to go into seige and jump etc.

This thread is about enabling BS to keep up with other sub cap ships whitout having to compromise their fits. It is also discussing the relative rarity of them.


And I just pointed out that dreadnoughts can keep up with cruisers and remain viable come November.



So?

This is about BS not Dred. why dont you talk about titans as well.


The point that I have made is that BS and to a lesser extend BC are REQUIRED to fit warp speed mods, no one else is. Fit your dreds as you wish, my arguement is about the base line of BS being way too low and the sacrifices made to move them quick greatly diminshes their role.


Why the arguement? are you worried about change?
Maraner
The Executioners
#133 - 2014-10-23 20:34:42 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
This thread gives me the mental picture of the last time I was in walmart, with Maraner as the screaming two year old throwing a tantrum because mommy wouldn't buy him candy.

Claiming that BS are broken because they warp slower than smaller ships is utter BS. If you use any tool outside it's intended purpose, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn' work out right. Stop trying to use a sledgehammer to swat a mosquito.



I'm asking for a buff from 2.0 to 3.0 or even to 2.5.

Not for a kidney or your moms addresss.

I also find it worrisome that CCP nerf a ships stats and then introduces modules to bring them back to what they were. We like to fly mixed ship fleet types. I can still do that at the moment, never said we couldn't

we just need to give up trimarks or slave sets to do it.

And if you need these to get comparable performance out of your ships, then your theory crafting and fitting teams are bad, or you straight up don't have them.



It amazes me that you feel you need to defend so stridently a ship class that has become less and less relevant over the last few years. I undertand how the hyperspatial rigs work, even use them on some of my BS fits. PLus those clone things, yep know about them as well.

This thread has been discussing BS warp speeds because at the moment they tend to be the only ship type that HAVE to fit them to warp around at reasonable speeds. This is an effective nerf to either their EHP or DPS output.

Which should be addressed as concerns for those issues. The underlying false assumption of "we must keep up in warp out of the box" is what baltech and I are trying to combat here, not better battleships.



Feel free to go off and start a thread of the other problems with BS.

THIS thread is about trying to roll back an unwanted nerf
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2014-10-23 20:37:32 UTC
Maraner wrote:



So?

This is about BS not Dred. why dont you talk about titans as well.


The point that I have made is that BS and to a lesser extend BC are REQUIRED to fit warp speed mods, no one else is. Fit your dreds as you wish, my arguement is about the base line of BS being way too low and the sacrifices made to move them quick greatly diminshes their role.


Why the arguement? are you worried about change?



When it messes up ship balance yes I am.

As for why the dread, it has even lower warp speeds and much longer align times than a battleship, yet I am getting it to do exactly what you want out of a battleship. If I can get a dreadnought to do this then you can get a battleship to do it too.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#135 - 2014-10-23 20:39:36 UTC
Maraner wrote:

Feel free to go off and start a thread of the other problems with BS.

THIS thread is about trying to roll back an unwanted nerf


And if/when I have the time to actually do a reasonable job of crunching sufficient numbers of possible fits, in possible outcomes for tweaks to these ships, which are in a usable spot, but not liked by several styles of player, I will. This thread is about doing things that break several intended mechanisms for game balance as proposed, and which does not address the issues which underpin the problems you have with them directly, i.e. that you think it is required to run slaves to be effective, and/or that you refuse to fit warp speed mods and then depot-ditch them when you are ready to engage, or shuffle them into a carrier/orca/rorqual/station/pos/nestor etc.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Maraner
The Executioners
#136 - 2014-10-23 20:45:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:



So?

This is about BS not Dred. why dont you talk about titans as well.


The point that I have made is that BS and to a lesser extend BC are REQUIRED to fit warp speed mods, no one else is. Fit your dreds as you wish, my arguement is about the base line of BS being way too low and the sacrifices made to move them quick greatly diminshes their role.


Why the arguement? are you worried about change?



When it messes up ship balance yes I am.

As for why the dread, it has even lower warp speeds and much longer align times than a battleship, yet I am getting it to do exactly what you want out of a battleship. If I can get a dreadnought to do this then you can get a battleship to do it too.



I realise as I have stated multiple times that I can get a BS to already align and warp very quickly. Can we all just move on from that point. I get it ok.

My problem is that it is at the cost of trimarks or slave clones.

The baseline of 2.0 AU is too low.

PLEASE dont tell me that I can fit a BS to make it warp quick, or that you are able to do a ludicrous fit on your dred to get it to move along with cruisers, gratz on that btw.

My argument is that the BS / BC is the only subcap (which is what we are taking about ) that NEEDS to fit them to keep up with the other commonly seen sub cap fleet formations that are out there.

I also lol'd a bit when you talked about balance with dreds keeping up with cruisers in the same sentence. You can clearly mess with the 'balance' all you want already, or do I need to tell you that you can make your dred keep up with cruisers.... did you know that btw?


Thanks
Maraner
The Executioners
#137 - 2014-10-23 20:48:58 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:

Feel free to go off and start a thread of the other problems with BS.

THIS thread is about trying to roll back an unwanted nerf


And if/when I have the time to actually do a reasonable job of crunching sufficient numbers of possible fits, in possible outcomes for tweaks to these ships, which are in a usable spot, but not liked by several styles of player, I will. This thread is about doing things that break several intended mechanisms for game balance as proposed, and which does not address the issues which underpin the problems you have with them directly, i.e. that you think it is required to run slaves to be effective, and/or that you refuse to fit warp speed mods and then depot-ditch them when you are ready to engage, or shuffle them into a carrier/orca/rorqual/station/pos/nestor etc.



It is required. Apparently other BS can go at 3.0 already. Did you know that? Or are they unbalanced as well. Baltec there can make a dred keep up with a cruiser fleet and you are attacking me for wanting a lift of the AU to enable BS to keep up with BC gangs and other sub cap types.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#138 - 2014-10-23 20:52:04 UTC
Maraner wrote:



I realise as I have stated multiple times that I can get a BS to already align and warp very quickly. Can we all just move on from that point. I get it ok.

My problem is that it is at the cost of trimarks or slave clones.

The baseline of 2.0 AU is too low.

PLEASE dont tell me that I can fit a BS to make it warp quick, or that you are able to do a ludicrous fit on your dred to get it to move along with cruisers, gratz on that btw.

My argument is that the BS / BC is the only subcap (which is what we are taking about ) that NEEDS to fit them to keep up with the other commonly seen sub cap fleet formations that are out there.

I also lol'd a bit when you talked about balance with dreds keeping up with cruisers in the same sentence. You can clearly mess with the 'balance' all you want already, or do I need to tell you that you can make your dred keep up with cruisers.... did you know that btw?


Thanks


You don't have to you just want to, Battleships do not have to go 3au to be viable.The warp speed changes have had no impact on the number of battleships used in lowsec, the number has been low for a decade.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2014-10-23 20:53:17 UTC
Maraner wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:

Feel free to go off and start a thread of the other problems with BS.

THIS thread is about trying to roll back an unwanted nerf


And if/when I have the time to actually do a reasonable job of crunching sufficient numbers of possible fits, in possible outcomes for tweaks to these ships, which are in a usable spot, but not liked by several styles of player, I will. This thread is about doing things that break several intended mechanisms for game balance as proposed, and which does not address the issues which underpin the problems you have with them directly, i.e. that you think it is required to run slaves to be effective, and/or that you refuse to fit warp speed mods and then depot-ditch them when you are ready to engage, or shuffle them into a carrier/orca/rorqual/station/pos/nestor etc.



It is required. Apparently other BS can go at 3.0 already. Did you know that? Or are they unbalanced as well. Baltec there can make a dred keep up with a cruiser fleet and you are attacking me for wanting a lift of the AU to enable BS to keep up with BC gangs and other sub cap types.



Difference is that I am making fitting choices while you want those speeds for no sacrifices at all.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#140 - 2014-10-23 20:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Maraner wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Maraner wrote:

Feel free to go off and start a thread of the other problems with BS.

THIS thread is about trying to roll back an unwanted nerf


And if/when I have the time to actually do a reasonable job of crunching sufficient numbers of possible fits, in possible outcomes for tweaks to these ships, which are in a usable spot, but not liked by several styles of player, I will. This thread is about doing things that break several intended mechanisms for game balance as proposed, and which does not address the issues which underpin the problems you have with them directly, i.e. that you think it is required to run slaves to be effective, and/or that you refuse to fit warp speed mods and then depot-ditch them when you are ready to engage, or shuffle them into a carrier/orca/rorqual/station/pos/nestor etc.



It is required. Apparently other BS can go at 3.0 already. Did you know that? Or are they unbalanced as well. Baltec there can make a dred keep up with a cruiser fleet and you are attacking me for wanting a lift of the AU to enable BS to keep up with BC gangs and other sub cap types.



Machariels. Machariels are pirate battlships, which have no where near the raw DPS or WTF webs of a vindicator, cannot fit a full rack of t2 long range guns and an MWD without mods or implants for PG, have a lack luster drone bay for a pirate BS and also cost substantially more than t1 hulls, most of the difference is not insurable. They have their trade offs. No uber NOS like a bhaal. No 150% bonus to damage like a NM, no WTF sentries or shield resist bonus like a Rattler. No uber range scrams like a bhargest. Its big thing is speed and agility, and it does it well.

And before you bring up the nestor, please find me a fit that does something well other than incursion logi or mobile refitting service.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp