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GamerGate Part 1: The Path We've Taken 9/28

First post
Author
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#121 - 2014-10-21 21:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurydia Vespasian
I feel compelled, as a female video game player, that while tired and cliched, being portrayed in an objectified manner or the use of damsel in distress plot lines don't offend me in the slightest. And even if it did...guess what? I have the power to simply not buy the game. Nor would I ***** about it. Because, while I might not personally be a fan of such a game...someone else may be. And they should be able to have the ability to game how they like.

If you don't like the content just don't purchase it. I don't like beets. So when I go to the store, I don't get any. I don't complain to beet farmers about being offended by their disgusting produce and that they should stop growing them.
Souxie Alduin
Anarchy in the Eve
#122 - 2014-10-21 21:43:17 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Souxie Alduin wrote:
Maybe half the worlds population are sick of being portrayed as either boobs-with-legs or damsels in distress.


Which is a fair argument to make in the year 2014 where we like think of ourselves as a "progressive species". The damsel in distress trope has been along for centuries and have been the quick and dirty way to tell a story.

I do agree though that these days we need to look in different directions for ways to tell our stories than to build a story around a damsel in distress. Using a damsel in distress as a sub-plot (rescue Leia from the Deathstar) is fine though, in my book.

Souxie Alduin wrote:
And what are these lapses in ethics you mention? Saarkesian sleeping around for reviews? If so, you know that's not actually true, right?


Professional ethics. And to my knowledge, Sarkeesian was not the one that allegedly slept around for reviews, it was Zoey Quinn. Which had nothing to with Gamergate or Sarkeesian' original video " Tropes vs Women", that is on Zoey Quinn alone and regardless if Zoey Quinn did, or did not, sleep around for reviews, is at this stage irrelevant when you have two sides so utterly hell-bent of shutting up the other that the original conversation about sexism in games and women in these two industries have largely been lost.

Look no further than twitter to witness the toxicity between the two.


I don't have a problem with the occasional Damsel in Distress plot-line. I do have a problem with it always being a Damsel.
There's never a Dude in Distress. It reinforces the stereotype that men are heroes and women are victims.

And yeah, I meant Zoey Quinn (who dated a reporter who never reviewed her game). My bad.
So many women in gaming have received horrible death and **** threats lately I get them mixed up.

And what about professional ethics? Examples?
Souxie Alduin
Anarchy in the Eve
#123 - 2014-10-21 21:51:39 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Souxie Alduin wrote:
A quick question for the Gamergate supporters: If this is all about ethics in journalism, why are you going after female developers and critics, and not the journalists?

The only logical answer I can come up with is that you really just don't want women talking about games.

a question from the third side:

will this argument will finally stop or will you people will build hate upon hate on each other for an eternity?


seeing people screaming "MISOGYNY!" at people screaming "MISANDRY!" and vice-versa for the last 2+ months is akin to beating a dead horse.

also, it stopped being funny long ago.


It was never funny in the first place. "I'm coming to your house to **** you with a K-bar" is not funny.

Also, from your argument you seem to think that misogyny and misandry are equal. They're not. There is a LOT more misogyny in gaming (and everywhere else) than misandry. Being threatened for pointing that out is not cool (see: Saarkesian).

And finally, if by "third side" you mean "people who don't care", why are you here commenting?
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2014-10-21 22:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alpheias
Souxie Alduin wrote:
There's never a Dude in Distress.


I disagree as I recall Han Solo was a dude in distress.

Souxie Alduin wrote:
So many women in gaming have received horrible death and **** threats lately I get them mixed up.


Again, I am of the mindset that gender is irrelevant when a person receives a death threat and no, I don't think it is much much worse if it is a girl that is being threatened. I make no distinction between genders when it comes to the sheer amount of stupidity going on. Threats directed at someone, regardless of their gender, is just as condemnable.

Souxie Alduin wrote:
And what about professional ethics? Examples?


Ars Technica
Kotaku
Polygon
Gamastura
RPS
etc.

I call it a lapse of professional ethics when journalists are influenced by their personal opinion on something that has devolved into little more than raging for the sake of raging. Adding to that, there is no reporting to speak of because as far as I know, no one seems interested in even talking about this subject like civilized people and addressing it like civilized people.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2014-10-22 04:52:10 UTC
Souxie Alduin wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Souxie Alduin wrote:
A quick question for the Gamergate supporters: If this is all about ethics in journalism, why are you going after female developers and critics, and not the journalists?

The only logical answer I can come up with is that you really just don't want women talking about games.

a question from the third side:

will this argument will finally stop or will you people will build hate upon hate on each other for an eternity?


seeing people screaming "MISOGYNY!" at people screaming "MISANDRY!" and vice-versa for the last 2+ months is akin to beating a dead horse.

also, it stopped being funny long ago.


It was never funny in the first place. "I'm coming to your house to **** you with a K-bar" is not funny.

Also, from your argument you seem to think that misogyny and misandry are equal. They're not. There is a LOT more misogyny in gaming (and everywhere else) than misandry. Being threatened for pointing that out is not cool (see: Saarkesian).

And finally, if by "third side" you mean "people who don't care", why are you here commenting?



it was funny at the beginning, seeing people from both sides running like headless chickens trying to make a "holier than thou" argument. it stopped being funny when people started to spew death threats, that is true.

also, it doesn't matter who has more than the other or who is more than the other. In this case, it's like people trying to show off who's being more bullied. The discussion has stopped being relevant long ago since all there's now is bile in each word being said, with both sides screaming death and murder to any voice of reason that tries to break out this cycle.

and while the "third side" doesn't care that much, they can still have opinions in the matter.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Malaclypse Muscaria
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2014-10-23 14:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Malaclypse Muscaria
So what would it be like if you had a feminist analyze "sexism and misogyny" in videgame culture, as Anita Sarkeesian tried, but observing the following points:


- Having a PhD instead of some random humanities degree

- Properly citing peer-reviewed academic studies to support your points

- Properly handling "facts" and their subtleties, instead of distorting, cherry-picking, or simply making sh*t up to support your pre-conceived narrative

- Properly use reason and perspective to construct your points, instead of cheaply appealing to emotion and basing your entire narrative around victimizing women (and yourself)

- Not swindling your supporters out of $160.000 to make your video


Well, here it is, the video that should put this whole Anita Sarkeesian / "Gamers are dead" nonsensical scam to rest: "Are videogames sexist?", by Christina Sommers.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#127 - 2014-10-23 15:22:52 UTC
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
I might be inclined to care more if I had ever, at any point, in my life gave a crud about game reviews. This girl behaved badly. That alone I can empathize with. Turning it into a massive spectacle for attention, I can not. Men are pretty much ruled by their schlongs. At least indirectly Smile. Louis C.K said once that humans **** up and across. They never **** down. Unless they are lid to and somehow get convinced they are ******* up.


Damn that's nasty.
Souxie Alduin
Anarchy in the Eve
#128 - 2014-10-23 19:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Souxie Alduin
Chris Kluwe has harsh words for Gamergaters (And yes, I agree completely with what he says, minus some of the hyperbole):

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-****-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6 Edit: replace **** with p i s s, or the link won't work.

Felicia Day was doxxed literally minutes after talking about gamergate for the first time:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/23/felicia-days-public-details-online-gamergate


Still haven't seen any examples of bad professional ethics. A list of websites doesn't count unless you can point to specific things they said that were wrong/bad. The only thing those websites have in common is being critical of gamergate, and you all react by trying to boycott them and get advertisers to pull out. You're trying to censor opinions you don't like.

And finally - I've been gaming for 34 years. For the first time in my life I'm truly ashamed to call myself a gamer, and that's because of gamergate. You're dragging us all through the mud and destroying the small amount of goodwill and mainstream acceptance we were finally getting. You seriously need to change your M.O.


Extra Edit: No one doxxed Chris Kluwe after his hit-piece. Felicia Day was doxxed simply for mentioning gamergate. I suspect a trend...
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#129 - 2014-10-23 19:58:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Souxie Alduin wrote:
Chris Kluwe has harsh words for Gamergaters (And yes, I agree completely with what he says, minus some of the hyperbole):

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-****-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6 Edit: replace **** with p i s s, or the link won't work.

Felicia Day was doxxed literally minutes after talking about gamergate for the first time:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/23/felicia-days-public-details-online-gamergate


Still haven't seen any examples of bad professional ethics. A list of websites doesn't count unless you can point to specific things they said that were wrong/bad. The only thing those websites have in common is being critical of gamergate, and you all react by trying to boycott them and get advertisers to pull out. You're trying to censor opinions you don't like.

And finally - I've been gaming for 34 years. For the first time in my life I'm truly ashamed to call myself a gamer, and that's because of gamergate. You're dragging us all through the mud and destroying the small amount of goodwill and mainstream acceptance we were finally getting. You seriously need to change your M.O.


Extra Edit: No one doxxed Chris Kluwe after his hit-piece. Felicia Day was doxxed simply for mentioning gamergate. I suspect a trend...


So I don't actually follow gamergate, but reading Kluwe's article did manage to catch me up pretty quick. I have to say, my local gaming circles were pretty tame, so I wasn't really exposed to a lot of what he's talking about. Once I had dwelled in a few online gaming communities for a while, the unfortunate reality of what Kluwe is conveying became readily apparent. Gaming has come a long way in the past ten years, but it certainly does not feel that way.

As for not doxxing him: He's a 193cm 98kg duder. They don't have the balls to show up at his door.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-10-23 21:26:47 UTC
Souxie Alduin wrote:
And finally - I've been gaming for 34 years. For the first time in my life I'm truly ashamed to call myself a gamer, and that's because of gamergate. You're dragging us all through the mud and destroying the small amount of goodwill and mainstream acceptance we were finally getting. You seriously need to change your M.O.



I'm not, because I don't even identify myself with either side. I'm a gamer. I play games, and I couldn't care less about some internet discussion about who has a ****, who hasn't, and who's better off with/without one.


why am I posting tho? well, I also like to state my opinion.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2014-10-23 21:31:36 UTC
Souxie Alduin wrote:
Chris Kluwe has harsh words for Gamergaters (And yes, I agree completely with what he says, minus some of the hyperbole):

https://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-****-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6


As he seems utterly incapable of delivering a statement without the hyperbole or insults, his words becomes less and less valid as he goes on. This statement of his will largely fall on deaf ears because he *chooses* to attack people rather than to address them like fellow human beings.

Souxie Alduin wrote:

Felicia Day was doxxed literally minutes after talking about gamergate for the first time:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/23/felicia-days-public-details-online-gamergate


How is this any worse from any other famous person having their info leaked online, it being a actor, singer or whatever? Because she speaks up against gamergate?

But speaking of crazies, people critical of gamergate threatens gamersgate.com (https://imgur.com/Cn9UT9i) and proves once more that people just as batsh*t crazy on your side.

Souxie Alduin wrote:

Still haven't seen any examples of bad professional ethics. A list of websites doesn't count unless you can point to specific things they said that were wrong/bad. The only thing those websites have in common is being critical of gamergate, and you all react by trying to boycott them and get advertisers to pull out. You're trying to censor opinions you don't like.


See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEMdf8D0lfw

I am actually quite surprised that you haven't done much research yourself on why gamergate exist, all you seem to think of gamergate is that it is nothing but misogyny.

Souxie Alduin wrote:

And finally - I've been gaming for 34 years. For the first time in my life I'm truly ashamed to call myself a gamer, and that's because of gamergate. You're dragging us all through the mud and destroying the small amount of goodwill and mainstream acceptance we were finally getting. You seriously need to change your M.O.


I don't feel ashamed for being a gamer or calling myself a gamer for playing games and enjoying them at the same time. And nor should you.

Repeat after me: "I am a gamer. I demand transparency in the gaming press. I want the industry to hire people with the right skill set, regardless of their gender, skin color or beliefs. I do not agree with nor will I support misogyny, bigotry and racism."

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Souxie Alduin
Anarchy in the Eve
#132 - 2014-10-24 17:52:16 UTC
I'm just going to copy-paste a comment from Ars Technica which pretty much sums it up:

I oppose GamerGate because it started with a misogynist lie (the Zoe Quinn conspiracy theory), because professionals with a private list-serve is NOT corruption, because games reviewers choosing to discuss social themes of a game as well as its gameplay is NOT corruption, because being a feminist is NOT corruption, because publishing a story about how video games are so popular now that the stereotype that gamers are a bunch of pasty social outcasts is outdated and dead is NOT corruption, and most of all, because I'm sick of how everyone who both is targeted by GG as "corrupt" and simultaneously is female gets **** and death threats mixed in with their run-of-the-mill GG hatemail (or hate tweets, as it were).
Anslo
Scope Works
#133 - 2014-10-24 17:56:55 UTC
Bad Nerds gonna Bad vOv

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Souxie Alduin
Anarchy in the Eve
#134 - 2014-10-24 18:02:09 UTC
And one more thing - Let's not forget that Vivian James is a r a p e joke.
Not posting a link (very NSFW), google it.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2014-10-24 18:25:49 UTC
Souxie Alduin wrote:
I'm just going to copy-paste a comment from Ars Technica which pretty much sums it up:

I oppose GamerGate because it started with a misogynist lie (the Zoe Quinn conspiracy theory), because professionals with a private list-serve is NOT corruption, because games reviewers choosing to discuss social themes of a game as well as its gameplay is NOT corruption, because being a feminist is NOT corruption, because publishing a story about how video games are so popular now that the stereotype that gamers are a bunch of pasty social outcasts is outdated and dead is NOT corruption, and most of all, because I'm sick of how everyone who both is targeted by GG as "corrupt" and simultaneously is female gets **** and death threats mixed in with their run-of-the-mill GG hatemail (or hate tweets, as it were).


Yet, when individuals who is critical of Gamergate doxxes and threatens someone (there are women too) who is pro-Gamergate, it is just dandy? Why doesn't media report on that?

The cognitive dissonance is mind-boggling.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Anslo
Scope Works
#136 - 2014-10-24 18:54:42 UTC
Sorry but what does it mean to be pro-gamergate and anti-gamergate? I don't think I'm getting the context correctly here.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2014-10-24 19:44:05 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Sorry but what does it mean to be pro-gamergate and anti-gamergate? I don't think I'm getting the context correctly here.


That depends who you ask really, because everyone has their own opinion on what Gamergate is.

One might say that pro-Gamergate are people who are okay with women in the tech/games industry being doxxed (having private info leaked). being threatened with **** and murder to silence her.

Another one would be that pro-Gamergate is about consumer advocacy, calling an end to the corruption (the rosy relationship between games journalists and game developers). That games websites like Kotaku is rapidly becoming a thing of the past in the age of youtube personalities like TotalBiscuit, which they are fully aware of and they have chosen to fight back. Using whatever methods that are available to them.

As someone that has remained as an quiet observer to this debacle since it started, I have looked at both sides and all I can say is that there are more rabid people on a soapbox with a twisted agenda, that picks apart everything that is being said, than there are sane people.

Like in all wars, there are no winners here.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Anslo
Scope Works
#138 - 2014-10-24 19:52:19 UTC
So basically my thinking was right and this is now turning into a blob of No you, no you, grrr topic here by people with an agenda, versus any actual debate of substance. Welp.

Thanks for the info!

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2014-10-24 20:03:07 UTC
Anslo wrote:
So basically my thinking was right and this is now turning into a blob of No you, no you, grrr topic here by people with an agenda, versus any actual debate of substance. Welp.

Thanks for the info!

remember those aliens from sesame street? those that went "YIP YIP YIP!" and "NOP NOP NOP!"?

yeah, add a "GRR TRAITOR TO THE CAUSE!" when someone decides to go rational.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Anslo
Scope Works
#140 - 2014-10-24 20:05:54 UTC
Figured as much. Kinda sad.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]