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James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#41 - 2014-10-19 03:16:50 UTC
Bullock Brawn wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

While multi-boxing is encouraged to a degree, having to push a "solution" to there being a gap in progression from l4 missions (designed as intermediate solo play, or beginner group play) and incursions (designed as direct competition for high end pilots with rewards commensurate to the SP and ship investment, i.e. one of the possible definitions of "end game play") being available in highsec (one of 4 primary space types, and the one which is least player driven, the tightest rules on the sandbox and thus the least risk, leading to lower possible isk rewards) is asking to be a special snowflake. If you want something PVE and more difficult and thus rewarding, leave highsec or step up and run incursions. Commitment + Barrier to entry + risk + investment (SP, ship/fit, and PLAYER SKILLS) are what determines how profitable an activity is designed to be.



That is very well said...


Keep in mind however, although I am framing more advanced HS combat from a Multibox point of view as that's my game play style. Many small groups of players (friends, family) with 4 or less could also benefit from an Incursion Lite (something real, not Scout) or lower pay level 5's.

To those who think a 5 minute PVP battle is a great time; I would disagree and suggest that is your play style. In a game as big as EVE regarding player base, you just don't get to decide what is fun for others. As is, the High Sec PVP mechanics are working well and there is no reason to change that; as is Low and Null mechanics. Adding value to small fleets PVE activity threatens no one in the PVP community, in fact it adds more profitable targets; if that's your fun zone.

Why does PVE have to be predictable or boring? The challenge is up to Dev's to make them a variable instead of a cheat sheet. Then perhaps all players would welcome more of this type of content.

You keep asking for things very very similar to things that exist.

Scouts just got rebalanced. payouts should now be ~60m/hr with a decent group of ABCs and t1 BS, with one logi and utility reps on the DPS.
Boxing as part of an established fleet is a thing.
10 man fleets are tiny and relatively easy to form.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Iain Cariaba
#42 - 2014-10-19 07:25:05 UTC
Bullock Brawn wrote:
How this thread quickly turns to defending PVP is so typical of forum vets.

This is not a nerf PVP thread, it's a make non-PVP combat more interesting as you progress in game.

1) Most games have levels as players progress through the ranks of game play.
2) Each level adds more dynamic and difficult content to the game.
3) Said levels have bosses that are more challenging to the player.
4) CCP encourages Multiple accounts (I get adverts all the time and buy into the deal)
5) CCP should have content that is not in PVP designated areas that allows the promoted multiple account player to progress and still be challenged.
6) They currently are lacking in this area; as there is a void between level 4 missions and Incursions for non-PVP oriented game play.

How is that threatening all that is right with the world..... ladies?

1) Any statement involving EvE that starts with the phrase, "Most games...," is usually automatically dismissed as utter nonsense. EvE is not "most games." You will find very heavy resistance to any idea you put forth using this argument, because most of the people who play this game do so because it is not"most games." Personally, I find "most games" to be utterly mind numbing repetitive bull****, and I will resist any and every attempt to bring further repetitive mindlessness into EvE.

2) Game play designed for you to solo against a computer is neither dynamic nor difficult. When all that is required to complete a task is something approaching a proper fit and shooting red crosses in a particular order every single time, it is neither dynamic nor difficult. When new content is added, and guides are written on how to most easily win at the new content before the patch is even released into the main server, this is neither difficult nor dynamic.

3) "Most games" have increasingly difficult bosses on paper, but when you actually arrive at said boss at the appropriate level, you find said boss is really no more difficult than the last boss you defeated. This is because "most games" are designed to utilize these bosses in combination with some sort of "level" system as a means to provide you with a meager sense of accomplishment. EvE, on the other hand, does not hand feed you goals to accomplish. It is up to you, the player, to determine how you are going to win EvE.

4) Of course CCP encourages multiple accounts. The more accounts there are, the more money they make. This is called "operating a business."

5) I must say no... wait not just no, but hell no. Even that isn't strong enough. **** no!!! I can honestly say that CCP introducing any form of non-PvP area into Tranquility would be the only thing that would make me biomass my characters and unsub forever. The instant CCP introduces any form of non-PvP area into Tranquility that is not being docked in a station is the instant that this will stop being EvE.

6) EvE is currently lacking in a lot of areas. This void you claim there is between level 4 missions and incursions isn't really a void. It is the representation of your own short sightedness and unwillingness to put yourself outside your comfort zone. EvE does not need more PvE added to it, nor does it need better rewards for what PvE is already there. What needs to happen is for you to decide to stop whimpering in highsec, grow a pair, and step out into the rest of the game. There are literally thousands of systems you can travel to in EvE. If you're unhappy where you currently sit, do what I've done at least a dozen times in 7 years. Go try something new.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#43 - 2014-10-19 08:06:11 UTC
Bullock Brawn wrote:
No EVE isn't a PVP-Combat core game, PVP as a whole = yes, but not combat...
No one said anything about combat only, we simply said it's a PvP game.

But at least you now admit you were wrong and can now see that Eve is and has always been PvP centric. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#44 - 2014-10-19 11:04:13 UTC
Bullock Brawn wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Quote:
You're playing your own game boys, let others play theirs.

While that is a nice thing to say, it unfortunately doesn't work out too well in a game centered around conflict and competition. In EVE your PvE activities affect PvPers in some way... which means that the system must allow for PvPers to affect them back.

So yeah... EVE is a PvP game at its core. PvE is a way to facilitate it.



That is your point of view and how you enjoy the game. I could spin it the other way just as easy and say due to the fact that PVE content if far more used, it facilitates the ability to play the game period, no matter your career path. Non-PVP combat (of which I am only speaking; not indy or market) does mix well to conflict as it drives the sale of new ships, mods, loss (if they were more difficult), etc...... Half full or Half empty. The fact remains that non-PVP/PVE-combat in this game is in need of progression and or change, thus the post...

Another fact is if a player doesn't get his or her kicks off other players tears, there is no changing them and they just won't play any other way. Accept the fact that you share this sandbox with others who think differently. No EVE isn't a PVP-Combat core game, PVP as a whole = yes, but not combat... So few legit fights, no arenas, no sanctioned matchs for the solo players,, I can go on, but why, vets will just argue the glory of EVE pvp and bask in a High Sec station while they post.

Question



You refusing to engage in more advanced and challenging PVE doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This whole game is based on the idea of increased rewards with increased risks. Try capital escalations.

Also PVP doesn't have anything to do with "tears", it's simply people enjoying more challenging an advanced gameplay than AI can offer.

Multi boxing with bot software should be banned.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-10-19 15:53:35 UTC
Chipping away it ice belts is the endgame for multiboxerbears. As it should be.

No to level 5 missions in high-sec, the whole point is to make you go to low-sec. You are correct that EVE does not have to be strictly centered on PVP but PVP is always going to be a threat. There are many games where this is not the case and there's nothing wrong with that, it just isn't the model that EVE works with. It isn't a game built to suit every person's desire for what it should be.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-10-19 16:23:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Syn Shi
Iain Cariaba wrote:
OP, you need to realize two things.

First off, EvE is a PvP game. Note the most common way to type EvE is with two capital Es, like the two capital Ps in PvP. EvE stands for Everyone vs. Everyone. If you don't like PvP, you're playing the wrong game.

Secondly, highsec never has been, and probably never will be, considered part of the end game. Highsec PvE players, we'll call them carebears for convienence, who know what they're doing never actually risk their ship running missions. Just days after the burner missions were released, there were forum threads and youtube videos showing what fits and tactics to use to run them generally risk free.

Now, to cover your post:
Problems:
1. Define end game content. If you're looking for end game PvE content, then you're SOL, as no PvE in any game doesn't become a repetitive grind.
2. Highsec is the noob area, and therefore pretty much made to be maxed out by a 2 month old toon.
3. EvE is a MMO. The second M stands for Multiplayer. While it can be played solo, the more advanced gameplay is made to be run with multiple players.
4. See #3. If you need more players, get more players.
5. Yep, it is, and it does. This is intentional.

Fixes:
Level 5 missions were long ago removed from highsec, and should remain in lowsec rather than have their payout reduced.

More:
Even if you added burner missions for cruisers, it will still be but a matter of days before the theory crafters figure out which fits and tactics are best used to run them essentially risk free.

The rest of your post is just a whine demonstrating that EvE is not the game for you. This is fine, really. I know several people who tried EvE, realized it wasn't to their liking, and moved on to try something else. Actually, one of my closest friends won't play EvE because he doesn't like the lack of non-PvP areas in the game.

The bottom line remains that EvE is a PvP game at it's core, and the PvE aspect is just a way to get isk to spend on PvP.



Do you actually play Eve? You call it a pvp game. Do you not know that the devs have to step in because the fabled lawless null sec has become a safer version of high sec.

PvP in Eve is now dominated by large groups who never want any type of challenge or risk. Look at the facts. They all blued up to avoid pvp.

The devs even said there are more people in Eve who do not participate in PVP. Hence the change to looking at the pve side of things.

Saying Eve is only a pvp game is nothing more than trying to promote ones own playstyle.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#47 - 2014-10-19 16:33:05 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
There's progression in EVE too, after you are no longer a noob, you leave hisec.


And this progression as you call it is fail in the extreme, the only sections of space that are seeing a drop in player activity are low and nul. If players are supposed to "progress" into low and nul when they are no longer noobs why are low and nul experiencing this drop in player activity?

There are multiple answers possible but one of the biggest in general is that low and nul simply do not offer what the players want so they do not go there. I have no idea what the answers to this are but it is clear that both low and nul need some major changes if they are to become anything more than the forgotten wastelands that they are. Just to be clear any idea that tries to force players into low or nul will always get a no vote from me not that my vote would count for much. What low and nul need is a serious re-think and some major changes so that the risk vs rewards make them more attractive to players in general. And yes I will say it high sec does not need any nerfs to risk vs reward it is reasonably well balanced at this point so for low and nul they may need buff , add to or whatever you want to call it.

"EVE" vs "EvE". I find it hysterical, here we are on the official "EVE" forums and the heading at the top lists it as "EVE", the icon for the game launcher also lists it as "EVE" as does the logo in the upper left corner of the launcher screen and checking the main page for "EVE" http://www.eveonline.com/landing/ we find it spelled "EVE" in 7 different locations. Now I may be stupid but I can read and I can differentiate between upper and lower case letters and it seems to me that if CCP wanted it to be "EvE" then it would be that way. With this information the only conclusion that is possible is that CCP intends it to be "EVE" as in all capital letters.

PvP - ah back to that one again.
The long standing definition is that of player vs player or players in direct combat with one another as in blowing each other up, or at least attempting to. It is only in the last year or so that the expansion of the term to include all areas of the game has really gained in prevalence and it often leads to mis-undertandings in this and other forums. Perhaps it is time to come up with some other terms to use to describe these different areas of game play so we can avoid these mis-understandings.
Bullock Brawn
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-10-19 17:10:16 UTC
A hot topic for sure....

Thanks for the input, and points of view.


I truly think the forum is the true PVP zone in EVE.

Best




For the record.... I play HS, due to only playing an hour at a time here and there. I really like the game and just sub my accounts, I couldn't imagine spending 10 hours of play time getting the cool toy (nice ship), only to lose it in a low sec camp in two minutes... just have better things to do.... but it is what it is... I post because I can!
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#49 - 2014-10-19 18:59:14 UTC
Dude......
EvE is a pvp game....its a war game and IS meant to be played by a group of players coming together and creating something bigger than themselves!

The PVE aspects are simply mere tools......
Salvage to fund making rigs
ISK to help fund offices and corp/alliance bills, and getting better cache of supplies.
Loot to fund maybe assisting newbies in training or that cheap scout fit you need
other wise
Mining = resource gathering
Indy = Mass production
REAL COMBAT PILOTS = PVP Pilots for the military arm of things whether they are gankers, nullsec cap pilots, or what not
Transport Specialists, every empire needs people that move and store stuff to survive.

IF you dont want to be stuck in front of a screen for hours on end then dont do it.....be a casual, but my god quit QQ.

If you lack the gall or social skills or willingness to be part and parcel of a social group....to want to achieve higher aims or be part of something ( a story) that is much bigger than yourself.....then fine so be it.
Just please, things are fine the way they are for most part when it comes to PVE stuff......its more likely the PLEX p2w styles or ISboxer....and dare I say Carebears like you that are the problem here.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#50 - 2014-10-19 20:10:21 UTC
It's not old. I know that PvP is often equated to ship vs ship and I'm guilty of doing this myself but the truth of the matter is that PvP can be applied to all areas of EvE and not just ship vs ship.

While there may be an infinite supply of minerals/ice, it is time gated (waiting for it to spawn back after being mined out). This means that indy players do have to compete for resources. Thus pvp.

It may be hard to see the pvp in running missions but it's there. Running missions, incursions, combat sites, etc. are the primary isk faucets in the game. Bringing more isk into play will cause market inflation. The affordability of the higher prices are dependent on your personal income.

So if you can bring in lots of isk/hour while the next person can't, you have an advantage over the other wrt market affordability.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2014-10-19 21:40:49 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
There's progression in EVE too, after you are no longer a noob, you leave hisec.


And this progression as you call it is fail in the extreme, the only sections of space that are seeing a drop in player activity are low and nul. If players are supposed to "progress" into low and nul when they are no longer noobs why are low and nul experiencing this drop in player activity?

There are multiple answers possible but one of the biggest in general is that low and nul simply do not offer what the players want so they do not go there. I have no idea what the answers to this are but it is clear that both low and nul need some major changes if they are to become anything more than the forgotten wastelands that they are. Just to be clear any idea that tries to force players into low or nul will always get a no vote from me not that my vote would count for much. What low and nul need is a serious re-think and some major changes so that the risk vs rewards make them more attractive to players in general. And yes I will say it high sec does not need any nerfs to risk vs reward it is reasonably well balanced at this point so for low and nul they may need buff , add to or whatever you want to call it.


What drop in player activity? And why you don't mention wormholes?

Nobody has to leave hisec, you can spend your whole EVE life in noobzone, it's you who are missing out. Meanwhile the others are having fun out there.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#52 - 2014-10-19 21:45:17 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
There's progression in EVE too, after you are no longer a noob, you leave hisec.


And this progression as you call it is fail in the extreme, the only sections of space that are seeing a drop in player activity are low and nul. If players are supposed to "progress" into low and nul when they are no longer noobs why are low and nul experiencing this drop in player activity?

There are multiple answers possible but one of the biggest in general is that low and nul simply do not offer what the players want so they do not go there. I have no idea what the answers to this are but it is clear that both low and nul need some major changes if they are to become anything more than the forgotten wastelands that they are. Just to be clear any idea that tries to force players into low or nul will always get a no vote from me not that my vote would count for much. What low and nul need is a serious re-think and some major changes so that the risk vs rewards make them more attractive to players in general. And yes I will say it high sec does not need any nerfs to risk vs reward it is reasonably well balanced at this point so for low and nul they may need buff , add to or whatever you want to call it.


What drop in player activity? And why you don't mention wormholes?

Nobody has to leave hisec, you can spend your whole EVE life in noobzone, it's you who are missing out. Meanwhile the others are having fun out there.


Average concurrent user count is DOWN. Wormholes have no good, publicly viewable metrics.
highsec isn't exactly the noobzone found in most MMOs, its just a low-PVP zone where you have strong intel or strong protections against PVP (wardecs send a mail to everyone with the corp that dec'd you listed, other PVP has to be accepted or it causes a concordoken) which is good for casuals, noobs, newbies and industry (serious, you wanna call it a noobzone when most production of subcaps happens there? Just remember how empty most markets are that don't seed from jita at a markup)

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-10-20 03:55:29 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Bullock Brawn wrote:
3) Look up how much time is logged doing PVE activities vs PVP stuff... PVE has far more time spent.
Because a level 4 will take an hour whereas a low-sec small-gang fight is over in five minutes. Difference is that small-gang fight is a hell of a lot more fun. P

Problem is those choke points help the blob or be blobed mechanic. Small gang PvP is so beyond dead its not even funny. The risk is not worth the reward in that PvE content outside of hi sec.

Null sec PvP is so short it makes me cry cause all people do is blob and kill mail horde. Speaking of which there is WAY too much emphasis on kill mails.... What ever happened to just playing the game? Forget how your kill boards look holy crap.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-10-20 04:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Brigadine Ferathine
Jur Tissant wrote:
Chipping away it ice belts is the endgame for multiboxerbears. As it should be.

No to level 5 missions in high-sec, the whole point is to make you go to low-sec. You are correct that EVE does not have to be strictly centered on PVP but PVP is always going to be a threat. There are many games where this is not the case and there's nothing wrong with that, it just isn't the model that EVE works with. It isn't a game built to suit every person's desire for what it should be.

I am SICK of the corporate greed. What happened to one customer being enough.

If you own multiple cars you can only drive one at a time. Why should we HAVE to have multiple accounts to play eve?

CCP needs to stop favoring the big dogs and give little guys a chance.. stop being so greedy.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-10-20 06:31:51 UTC
I would be okay with the burner missions for cruiser hulls.

I´m not okay with bringing content from lowsec to highsec. If you wanna play some of them go to lowsec, there are already too much players living in highsec, we shouldn´t make it more comfortable as it is right now.
Dyexz
Comrades in Construction
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#56 - 2014-10-20 07:52:53 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
ISBotter is a plague. The last thing CCP should do is cater even more to the people who are infected with it.

Additionally, the game does not need to develop towards "forcing" or "encouraging" or in any other way making a player feel like they need to have multiple accounts in order to be competitive with anyone else.


ISBoxer (or ISbotter as you call it) has never been a "BOT" program it is a common misconception, ISBoxer and BOTs work in different ways. While Botting is against CCP's EULA, ISBoxer is not for the very simple reason: ISBoxer still require Human interaction with a game-client!

Any 3rd-party program that enables you to remove the human interaction part of the gameplay is violating the EULA.

additionally there are (to my knowledge) no game aspects that are "forcing" or "encouraging" players to need multiple accounts, well maybe 1 and that would be related to the Industry aspect of EVE. having multiple accounts has and will always be a choice to each player.
Bullock Brawn
Doomheim
#57 - 2014-10-20 14:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullock Brawn
Tabyll Altol wrote:
I would be okay with the burner missions for cruiser hulls.

I´m not okay with bringing content from lowsec to highsec. If you wanna play some of them go to lowsec, there are already too much players living in highsec, we shouldn´t make it more comfortable as it is right now.



Funny, you mention there are already too many players living in High Sec...... and this is because?

What does that tell you, and who is this "We" people you're speaking of, that should dictate the goals of others?

1) People like options and the crowd has continually spoken
2) People have their own gaming goals and most don't include losing without purpose
3) The game is for all subscribers, not just Vets who remember the good ol' days of 3000 ship PVP battles
4) Players like predictability and a workable long term plan
5) Players feel there is more general balance in HS for interactions with other players and everyone's goals.
6) Low Sec is only for the occasional roam and nothing more for most players due to a negative player vibe that permeates it's borders when visitors arrive
7) People like to live with others, and as you say "most live in the City" where life is comfortable. It's a game after all and it's core goal is to be fun.

If CCP wanted all players to participate in PVP combat, they would make it balanced for solo players and small groups. Yet, any Vet cuts their nose off dispite their face and "slams" any ideas of arenas or balanced PVP match ups... so be it, you just have what you have now.... A huge wall separating players, because a sandbox left without rules just ends of being ruled by the lord of the flies and that doesn't work for most.... thus High Sec will always be the place to be, since there is no balance in other areas of the game....

EVE = Exploit vs Exploit
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-10-20 14:39:18 UTC
My view on this is simple, PvE could do with more challenge through gameplay but rewards are just fine right now.
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-10-21 05:31:45 UTC
Bullock Brawn wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
I would be okay with the burner missions for cruiser hulls.

I´m not okay with bringing content from lowsec to highsec. If you wanna play some of them go to lowsec, there are already too much players living in highsec, we shouldn´t make it more comfortable as it is right now.



Funny, you mention there are already too many players living in High Sec...... and this is because?

What does that tell you, and who is this "We" people you're speaking of, that should dictate the goals of others?

1) People like options and the crowd has continually spoken
2) People have their own gaming goals and most don't include losing without purpose
3) The game is for all subscribers, not just Vets who remember the good ol' days of 3000 ship PVP battles
4) Players like predictability and a workable long term plan
5) Players feel there is more general balance in HS for interactions with other players and everyone's goals.
6) Low Sec is only for the occasional roam and nothing more for most players due to a negative player vibe that permeates it's borders when visitors arrive
7) People like to live with others, and as you say "most live in the City" where life is comfortable. It's a game after all and it's core goal is to be fun.

If CCP wanted all players to participate in PVP combat, they would make it balanced for solo players and small groups. Yet, any Vet cuts their nose off dispite their face and "slams" any ideas of arenas or balanced PVP match ups... so be it, you just have what you have now.... A huge wall separating players, because a sandbox left without rules just ends of being ruled by the lord of the flies and that doesn't work for most.... thus High Sec will always be the place to be, since there is no balance in other areas of the game....

EVE = Exploit vs Exploit

The problem is Low security space is MORE dangerous than 0.0 NO security space. How the heck does that make any sense? Shouldn't NO security be more dangerous than SOME security? Not if your CCP backwards logic prevails again.

EVE is still run by the vets. Which is not ok because I pay just as much as you do.

The game is NOT balanced at solo/small gang PvP and I find that amazing. This game really does force you to be dependent on other people for your own happiness. That is not a good way to live much less a fun model for a video game.

CCP seems to forget games are supposed to be fun.
EVE= Exploit vs. Exploit
Blob or be blobed
skill and ship balance matters not just belong to the bigger blob on field= automatic win with no skill
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#60 - 2014-10-21 06:20:59 UTC
Bullock Brawn wrote:


If CCP wanted all players to participate in PVP combat, they would make it balanced for solo players and small groups. Yet, any Vet cuts their nose off dispite their face and "slams" any ideas of arenas or balanced PVP match ups... so be it, you just have what you have now.... A huge wall separating players, because a sandbox left without rules just ends of being ruled by the lord of the flies and that doesn't work for most.... thus High Sec will always be the place to be, since there is no balance in other areas of the game....

EVE = Exploit vs Exploit


PVP is balanced for solo players and small group. EVE is not ruled by some mysterious lord of the flies.

I don't honestly think that you have any idea of what EVE is actually like outside your hisec mission botting.