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Gevlon's Second Doozie

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#261 - 2014-10-16 18:40:26 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
self-interested Eve players


As opposed to.... what exactly?

Eve players who are charitably minded?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#262 - 2014-10-16 18:43:26 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
self-interested Eve players


As opposed to.... what exactly?

Eve players who are charitably minded?


Well, if one concedes that your average American citizen is basically a self-interested little twerp, does this mean that we have no right for concern if the President of the United States is motivated by self interest and using the Army and executive privilege to advance his personal goals?
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#263 - 2014-10-16 18:44:00 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

Also for that dominix thing, dunno isnt that really a problem of not having cheaper ships available for purchase from the alliance due to paperwork?

The ship itself was 320.
120 mil in expired insurance purchases
30 mil for new rigs
30 odd mill for shipping/jump fuel

Yes, that will totally be fixed by the alliance having cheaper ships available for purchase Roll. Preferably for free, right? No one would ever buy such free ships and fly them to Jita to sell or anything, I'm sure. That will totally fix the above listed line member expenses.

SRP on strategic operations typically pays the contract purchase price of the ship minus platinum insurance payout. It's up to you to acquire the ship. At times, it is up to you to get the ship to where it is supposed to be in one piece. It is up to you to keep it insured. That includes caps.

Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Nice loaded question you have there.

Are you actually suggesting that every line member take up mining and industry? You want them all to mine ore, get their own blueprints and do their own production? Does every high sec mission runner who wants a Machariel go out to acquire his own drop or LP for the blueprint copy, then mine to build his own Machariel? Or does he find the most efficient way or the path of least resistance to acquiring the ISK to purchase it from someone else?

Why then is it unacceptable for a null resident to make ISK in a variety of ways and purchase his necessities from a corp/alliance member who is doing the production with this ISK? What do we pay with for clone upgrades, implants, and insurance?

As has been mentioned, the way T2 manufacturing works high sec trade is a must. Barring massive game changes, you will always have to sell off excess moon goo and other regional resources in high sec, then use the ISK to purchase things not available locally. Yes, the ISK is to go to High and buy things. Things the manufacturer needs to make finished pruducts to sell to the alliance to continue his operations.

Now let me reverse that question for you. What is all the ISK in high sec for? Null pilots at least have readily visible expenses to cover. High sec mission runners blitzers have a minimal ammo bill at best. They make double the money of a null grunt in complete safety. What for?

(Oh, right, they're all null alts...)
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2014-10-16 18:46:25 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:


First off, I don't hate Gevlon.

Secondly, define "themepark". Because I haven't seen anything from alliance leadership that is anything along the lines of what is traditionally considered themepark content in MMO's.


I surely cannot speak for the crazy goblin, but within the given context the term "theme park" is usually used to describe a more accessible approach to the game, say you dont loose anything when dying, you get to skip grind and most unconveniences, get rewards for participation, and so on...

What seems to me what he is saying that it is not the best goal for the game as a whole to attract people that expect to pvp (and win) 23/7 in one window while afk ratting for much more isk than they loose in said pvp in the second window.

Personally i dont find the situation that gloomy (like anyone would care :) ), but some of the comments here do seem to me like having the cake and eating at the same time.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#265 - 2014-10-16 18:48:09 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
self-interested Eve players


As opposed to.... what exactly?

Eve players who are charitably minded?


Well, if one concedes that your average American citizen is basically a self-interested little twerp, does this mean that we have no right for concern if the President of the United States is motivated by self interest and using the Army and executive privilege to advance his personal goals?


I dont understand how that question is an answer to mine.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-10-16 18:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Vald Tegor wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:

Also for that dominix thing, dunno isnt that really a problem of not having cheaper ships available for purchase from the alliance due to paperwork?

The ship itself was 320.
120 mil in expired insurance purchases
30 mil for new rigs
30 odd mill for shipping/jump fuel

Yes, that will totally be fixed by the alliance having cheaper ships available for purchase Roll. Preferably for free, right? No one would ever buy such free ships and fly them to Jita to sell or anything, I'm sure. That will totally fix the above listed line member expenses.

SRP on strategic operations typically pays the contract purchase price of the ship minus platinum insurance payout. It's up to you to acquire the ship. At times, it is up to you to get the ship to where it is supposed to be in one piece. It is up to you to keep it insured. That includes caps.


Not to be very harsh but that contracting and moving around was kinda your choice (not mentioning the rigs), and i did mention the paperwork required for giving out stuff for free/cheaper.

Its a sandbox in the end, the system is what you make it to be, sure it is easier just leave the details to the line members (and possibly the only choice with the given cadre availability in null :) ), but what you are decribing in the context of null ratting is that the game should subsidize alliance redeployment.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2014-10-16 19:01:47 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

Did you read Gevlon's article that this thread started off being about? There you'll get the context that will explain my use of the word. The blog posts is linked in one of my posts on the first page of the thread.



Yah, I've read it, and I stand by both my points that;

(1) Gevlon is not a reliable critic of what is fun or what motivates people to do anything.

(2) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5119947#post5119947


Point 2 is rather important, because even with the existing jump ranges, completely wiping out PL and N3 sov after B-R and keeping them from retaking that space would have been massively impractical. It also would not be a "win" scenario as far as the rest of Eve is concerned, because it would have meant a literal blue doughnut of CFC owning virtually all of nullsec, instead of a figurative one where 3 groups own most of it and aren't motivated to take any more. We still fight, but we aren't moving the borders because it just isn't worth it.


Which just plays into Gevlon's typical shifting goalpost tactics. We will always be wrong no matter what. We are wrong because we aren't fighting each other over space that we can't even rent out (or give away because much of it is crap). We would be wrong if we did destroy them and made all nullsec CFC space. We would still be wrong, but maybe less wrong in Gevlon's eyes, if the CFC was destroyed and PL and N3 divided the map bust still decided not to fight each other.

Our only crime, and I include PL and N3 in this, is that we have taken the game to its logical conclusion. We fought lots of people, and took all the space we could reliably hold, use what we can and rent out the rest to groups too small to take and hold on their own.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2014-10-16 19:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

Did you read Gevlon's article that this thread started off being about? There you'll get the context that will explain my use of the word. The blog posts is linked in one of my posts on the first page of the thread.



Yah, I've read it, and I stand by both my points that;

(1) Gevlon is not a reliable critic of what is fun or what motivates people to do anything.

(2) https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5119947#post5119947


Point 2 is rather important, because even with the existing jump ranges, completely wiping out PL and N3 sov after B-R and keeping them from retaking that space would have been massively impractical. It also would not be a "win" scenario as far as the rest of Eve is concerned, because it would have meant a literal blue doughnut of CFC owning virtually all of nullsec, instead of a figurative one where 3 groups own most of it and aren't motivated to take any more. We still fight, but we aren't moving the borders because it just isn't worth it.


Which just plays into Gevlon's typical shifting goalpost tactics. We will always be wrong no matter what. We are wrong because we aren't fighting each other over space that we can't even rent out (or give away because much of it is crap). We would be wrong if we did destroy them and made all nullsec CFC space. We would still be wrong, but maybe less wrong in Gevlon's eyes, if the CFC was destroyed and PL and N3 divided the map bust still decided not to fight each other.

Our only crime, and I include PL and N3 in this, is that we have taken the game to its logical conclusion. We fought lots of people, and took all the space we could reliably hold, use what we can and rent out the rest to groups too small to take and hold on their own.


That the blocs have taken the game to its logical conclusion is not a point of debate here. It's the nature of the fixes that are the issue. What Gevlon and others are saying is that people seem to be rallying around the voices of their bloc leaders in advocating changes, and these bloc leaders are basically motivated by self interest, and that this should call them into question.

If I read the Goon agenda correctly, they want an occupancy sov mechanic that will ensure that they are never uprooted from Deklein, and while Goons generally are not supportive of the jump travel nerf, since it's happening, they want increased revenue per system so they can have everything they want in Deklein. To me this looks like Goon leaders advocating a system where they can sit in Deklein and rat all day and have little 'fun fights' on their border to keep recruiting noobs to press F1 and think it's wonderful, all paid for by an unlimited SRP that you don't need to own the whole universe to have because just owning Deklein will make them infinitely wealthy. And this is not just a dig at Goons, because if taken to conclusion, every region in null will have its own alliance that runs it which will be impossible to uproot and infinitely wealthy. So the only thing left to do is have SRP funded fun fights with no consequence for the players, therefore a theme park.

That just doesn't sit right with me.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#269 - 2014-10-16 19:16:33 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:


That the blocs have taken the game to its logical conclusion is not a point of debate here. It's the nature of the fixes that are the issue. What Gevlon and others are saying is that people seem to be rallying around the voices of their bloc leaders in advocating changes, and these bloc leaders are basically motivated by self interest, and that this should call them into question.

If I read the goon agenda correctly, they want an occupancy sov mechanic that will ensure that they are never uprooted from Deklein, and while Goons generally are not supportive of the jump travel nerf, since it's happening, they want increased revenue per system so they can have everything they want in Deklein. To me this looks like Goon leaders advocating a system where they can sit in Deklein and rat all day and have little 'fun fights' on their border to keep recruiting noobs to press F1 and think it's wonderful.

That just doesn't sit right with me.


It doesn't sit right with you because you're making it all up in your head lol. Your biases and prejudices are the issue here, not what anyone else is doing. Something i read a few years ago seems to be relevant here (and it's why i read your posts and immediately thought of Dinsdale):

http://www.alternet.org/story/150730/one_surprising_reason_people_may_believe_bizarre_conspiracy_theories

Quote:
“These studies suggest that people who have more lax personal morality may endorse conspiracy theories to a greater extent because they are, on average, more willing to participate in the conspiracies themselves.”



Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2014-10-16 19:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Jenn aSide wrote:

It doesn't sit right with you because you're making it all up in your head lol. Your biases and prejudices are the issue here, not what anyone else is doing. Something i read a few years ago seems to be relevant here (and it's why i read your posts and immediately thought of Dinsdale):

http://www.alternet.org/story/150730/one_surprising_reason_people_may_believe_bizarre_conspiracy_theories

Quote:
“These studies suggest that people who have more lax personal morality may endorse conspiracy theories to a greater extent because they are, on average, more willing to participate in the conspiracies themselves.”





Its not a conspiracy when evryone except the chicken is on it, it becomes more of a political goal. :)

Who the chicken is is a more interesting question, if you ask me.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2014-10-16 19:27:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:


That the blocs have taken the game to its logical conclusion is not a point of debate here. It's the nature of the fixes that are the issue. What Gevlon and others are saying is that people seem to be rallying around the voices of their bloc leaders in advocating changes, and these bloc leaders are basically motivated by self interest, and that this should call them into question.

If I read the goon agenda correctly, they want an occupancy sov mechanic that will ensure that they are never uprooted from Deklein, and while Goons generally are not supportive of the jump travel nerf, since it's happening, they want increased revenue per system so they can have everything they want in Deklein. To me this looks like Goon leaders advocating a system where they can sit in Deklein and rat all day and have little 'fun fights' on their border to keep recruiting noobs to press F1 and think it's wonderful.

That just doesn't sit right with me.


It doesn't sit right with you because you're making it all up in your head lol. Your biases and prejudices are the issue here, not what anyone else is doing. Something i read a few years ago seems to be relevant here (and it's why i read your posts and immediately thought of Dinsdale):

http://www.alternet.org/story/150730/one_surprising_reason_people_may_believe_bizarre_conspiracy_theories

Quote:
“These studies suggest that people who have more lax personal morality may endorse conspiracy theories to a greater extent because they are, on average, more willing to participate in the conspiracies themselves.”





Meh you're accusing me of personal bias because I have invoked the name of Gevlon, which speaks of your bias, not mine.

What I am coming up with in thinking this through is:

1 - I am leaning against occupancy sov as a fix.

2 - I am against increasing wealth per system. Scarcity of wealth drives conflict.

3 - I am against rebalancing moon resources to create locally independent moon goo industries.

4 - I am still aware that null needs a fix. I don't know what it is exactly, but issues of timers and flag planting need to be refined and addressed without moving to a simple occupancy mechanic making sov tougher or easier to take.

5 - there isn't a party out there advocating a system of fixes that I am satisfied with, namely because I can see that every party advocating fixes is not really motivated by making Eve the best game it can be.

These are concrete impressions that I am coming up with that are not a slavish blind devotion to Gevlon (although I think the guy is great) nor an unjustified hatred of the Goons (although I am Grr Goon).
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#272 - 2014-10-16 19:32:00 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

What seems to me what he is saying that it is not the best goal for the game as a whole to attract people that expect to pvp (and win) 23/7 in one window while afk ratting for much more isk than they loose in said pvp in the second window.

Personally i dont find the situation that gloomy (like anyone would care :) ), but some of the comments here do seem to me like having the cake and eating at the same time.

I too sit away from the keyboard in a 200 million ISK ship tackled by npc frigates for minutes at a time while manually flying a 50 million ISK Rifter covered by SRP on my primary screen.

Totally risk free 50 mil per hour! You can do it too! Come have your cake and eat it too! Well, more like 40 mil per hour, because I'm afk you see and don't warp to the next site as soon as the current one is done. Assuming I didn't join the fleet with both characters in the first place.

If you are really that sour about it, you will be glad to know one of my corp mates constantly runs incursions with an alt on his other screen during and in between any and all fleets he joins. He makes something like 30 mil every 10 minutes. Yay high sec.

You are also severely mistaken if you think the only pvp that happens is when a fleet is pinged for and "the blob" rolls out, with everyone just making money the rest of the time. You will also have to elaborate on your definition of always winning.

Where the theme park comes from in a away is timers. The timer lets everyone know that at that particular time something will occur in that particular system, even on that particular grid. That's how the big leaders organize events for us to attend. But is forcing fights really a bad thing, considering the alternative of out of time zone asset flipping?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#273 - 2014-10-16 19:40:10 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:


Meh you're accusing me of personal bias because I have invoked the name of Gevlon, which speaks of your bias, not mine.


I don't care anything about Gevlon, nor am I a Goon. I'm just an EVe player calling em like I see em. You muddy up your own position with all that conspiracy thinking.

Quote:

What I am coming up with in thinking this through is:

1 - I am leaning against occupancy sov as a fix.

2 - I am against increasing wealth per system. Scarcity of wealth drives conflict.

3 - I am against rebalancing moon resources to create locally independent moon goo industries.

4 - I am still aware that null needs a fix. I don't know what it is exactly, but issues of timers and flag planting need to be refined and addressed without moving to a simple occupancy mechanic making sov tougher or easier to take.

5 - there isn't a party out there advocating a system of fixes that I am satisfied with, namely because I can see that every party advocating fixes is not really motivated by making Eve the best game it can be.

These are concrete impressions that I am coming up with that are not a slavish blind devotion to Gevlon (although I think the guy is great) nor an unjustified hatred of the Goons (although I am Grr Goon).


I highlighted where you are falling short. There is an old saying, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", though stupidity is to harsh in this case lol.

The people who believe that the 'fixes' are occupancy sov and increasing per system wealth etc aren't evil minions of the bosses (what you are accusing them of), they are players like you and I who might be right or wrong for their own reasons. Jumping to the conclusion (as you and Gevlon do) that's it's some kind of self interest at play only lowers the value of your opinion.

Their COULD be self interest in people opinions, but till you have proof, you can't say.

For the record, i have problems with Occupancy Sov as an idea (I think the people who have that idea are mostly PVPrs who don't understand PVErs like me and it's foolish to make 'people you don't understand' the corner stone of a sov system this is why Dominion Sov with it's 'activity indexes' has failed). I don't like a lot of the ideas people have (like NPC space in every region) also. but I think they made those proposals because they are mistaken, not because they are 'evil'.

Drop the conspiracy thinking and I tend to agree with you. Not that this should matter to you lol.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#274 - 2014-10-16 20:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Paynus Maiassus wrote:

These are concrete impressions that I am coming up with that are not a slavish blind devotion to Gevlon (although I think the guy is great) nor an unjustified hatred of the Goons (although I am Grr Goon).


Those are not "concrete" anything.

Those are you saying that the feelz aren't right for you. You barely even have an issue with what's being said, hell you're barely able to adequately define it for yourself.

You are only paying attention to *who* said it, and *how* they're saying it.

You're the worst kind of sheep, the kind that can't hear anything but tone. I could be saying "come here so I can kill you, stuff you, and mount you on my wall" in the voice I use to talk to my three year old when she is sleepy, and people like you would follow me with rapture on your face.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lady Areola Fappington
#275 - 2014-10-16 20:24:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I highlighted where you are falling short. There is an old saying, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", though stupidity is to harsh in this case lol.

The people who believe that the 'fixes' are occupancy sov and increasing per system wealth etc aren't evil minions of the bosses (what you are accusing them of), they are players like you and I who might be right or wrong for their own reasons. Jumping to the conclusion (as you and Gevlon do) that's it's some kind of self interest at play only lowers the value of your opinion.

Their COULD be self interest in people opinions, but till you have proof, you can't say.

For the record, i have problems with Occupancy Sov as an idea (I think the people who have that idea are mostly PVPrs who don't understand PVErs like me and it's foolish to make 'people you don't understand' the corner stone of a sov system this is why Dominion Sov with it's 'activity indexes' has failed). I don't like a lot of the ideas people have (like NPC space in every region) also. but I think they made those proposals because they are mistaken, not because they are 'evil'.

Drop the conspiracy thinking and I tend to agree with you. Not that this should matter to you lol.



There's a little bit of sociology/psychology going with the whole "everything is a conspiracy" bit.

"People just having opinions" is, frankly, boring. Everyone has opinions on things. There's no story to it, no nothing, just people being people.

Now, if you take those opinions and turn them into a big conspiracy, suddenly you can be "in" on the action. The person "calling out" the big conspiracy is just as much part of the story as the people involved in the conspiracy itself.

It's almost like a backdoor way of being part of a nullsec group, in Eve. You may never be a direct member of the Goon "Inner Circle", but with a good "Mitten's RMT Empire" conspiracy, you suddenly become part of their story. For some people, that level of coattail fame is good enough.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#276 - 2014-10-16 20:38:31 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
because I have invoked the name of Gevlon

You mad fool, you've doomed us all!
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#277 - 2014-10-16 20:42:23 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

Not to be very harsh but that contracting and moving around was kinda your choice (not mentioning the rigs), and i did mention the paperwork required for giving out stuff for free/cheaper.

Its a sandbox in the end, the system is what you make it to be, sure it is easier just leave the details to the line members (and possibly the only choice with the given cadre availability in null :) ), but what you are decribing in the context of null ratting is that the game should subsidize alliance redeployment.

It was kinda my choice to move it. That's right. A choice between
- leaving it in scalding pass, jump cloning home and buying a new one (it's now a NC. station)
- Flying it 50 jumps without support and dying on the way (30mil SRP), then buying a new one
- Paying to have it moved

As I mentioned before there was a move op. I missed it. Real life happens and I schedule EvE around it, not the other way around. It was just one example of how SRP does not cover the entirety of a line member's expenses. The intent of SRP is so that when you lose your ship, you get the money to replace it and fly in the next fleet a few days later. That's it. In my year in the CFC I've spent a couple billion out of pocket on ships and insurance and many of them I have hardly flown.

Furthermore, the "paperwork" you are talking about to reduce cost.. you are literally talking about having guys donate their time to the alliance running around in their jump freighters for hours so they can sell ships to members at jita prices in the ass end of nowhere. That's not how it works. The guys doing the hauling charge you for their effort in getting the equipment there. Or you can buy it in Jita and haul it yourself if you prefer. The alliance covers these expenses for the ships that are actually lost in way of SRP.

What I'm describing in the context of null ratting is a game where hostile ratting systems don't have people ratting, because it's not worth it over income sources that are safer, more consistent and more lucrative. Starving out enemy line members from using their space should be a victory that forces them into travel time and inferior income sources, having an impact on the conflict. As it is, Sov Null is the worst place for a combat pilot to earn money in EvE to begin with. Doesn't that sound completely backwards?
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#278 - 2014-10-16 20:57:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

For the record, i have problems with Occupancy Sov as an idea (I think the people who have that idea are mostly PVPrs who don't understand PVErs like me and it's foolish to make 'people you don't understand' the corner stone of a sov system this is why Dominion Sov with it's 'activity indexes' has failed). I don't like a lot of the ideas people have (like NPC space in every region) also. but I think they made those proposals because they are mistaken, not because they are 'evil'.

I'm curious how you expect occupancy based sov to negatively impact your play style
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2014-10-16 20:59:01 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:

What seems to me what he is saying that it is not the best goal for the game as a whole to attract people that expect to pvp (and win) 23/7 in one window while afk ratting for much more isk than they loose in said pvp in the second window.

Personally i dont find the situation that gloomy (like anyone would care :) ), but some of the comments here do seem to me like having the cake and eating at the same time.

I too sit away from the keyboard in a 200 million ISK ship tackled by npc frigates for minutes at a time while manually flying a 50 million ISK Rifter covered by SRP on my primary screen.

Totally risk free 50 mil per hour! You can do it too! Come have your cake and eat it too! Well, more like 40 mil per hour, because I'm afk you see and don't warp to the next site as soon as the current one is done. Assuming I didn't join the fleet with both characters in the first place.

If you are really that sour about it, you will be glad to know one of my corp mates constantly runs incursions with an alt on his other screen during and in between any and all fleets he joins. He makes something like 30 mil every 10 minutes. Yay high sec.

You are also severely mistaken if you think the only pvp that happens is when a fleet is pinged for and "the blob" rolls out, with everyone just making money the rest of the time. You will also have to elaborate on your definition of always winning.

Where the theme park comes from in a away is timers. The timer lets everyone know that at that particular time something will occur in that particular system, even on that particular grid. That's how the big leaders organize events for us to attend. But is forcing fights really a bad thing, considering the alternative of out of time zone asset flipping?


You are mistaking me for the crazy goblin :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#280 - 2014-10-16 21:04:22 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:


That the blocs have taken the game to its logical conclusion is not a point of debate here. It's the nature of the fixes that are the issue. What Gevlon and others are saying is that people seem to be rallying around the voices of their bloc leaders in advocating changes, and these bloc leaders are basically motivated by self interest, and that this should call them into question.

If I read the goon agenda correctly, they want an occupancy sov mechanic that will ensure that they are never uprooted from Deklein, and while Goons generally are not supportive of the jump travel nerf, since it's happening, they want increased revenue per system so they can have everything they want in Deklein. To me this looks like Goon leaders advocating a system where they can sit in Deklein and rat all day and have little 'fun fights' on their border to keep recruiting noobs to press F1 and think it's wonderful.

That just doesn't sit right with me.


It doesn't sit right with you because you're making it all up in your head lol. Your biases and prejudices are the issue here, not what anyone else is doing. Something i read a few years ago seems to be relevant here (and it's why i read your posts and immediately thought of Dinsdale):

http://www.alternet.org/story/150730/one_surprising_reason_people_may_believe_bizarre_conspiracy_theories

Quote:
“These studies suggest that people who have more lax personal morality may endorse conspiracy theories to a greater extent because they are, on average, more willing to participate in the conspiracies themselves.”





Meh you're accusing me of personal bias because I have invoked the name of Gevlon, which speaks of your bias, not mine.

What I am coming up with in thinking this through is:

1 - I am leaning against occupancy sov as a fix.

2 - I am against increasing wealth per system. Scarcity of wealth drives conflict.

3 - I am against rebalancing moon resources to create locally independent moon goo industries.

4 - I am still aware that null needs a fix. I don't know what it is exactly, but issues of timers and flag planting need to be refined and addressed without moving to a simple occupancy mechanic making sov tougher or easier to take.

5 - there isn't a party out there advocating a system of fixes that I am satisfied with, namely because I can see that every party advocating fixes is not really motivated by making Eve the best game it can be.

These are concrete impressions that I am coming up with that are not a slavish blind devotion to Gevlon (although I think the guy is great) nor an unjustified hatred of the Goons (although I am Grr Goon).


No, you are getting called out for personal bias due to you basically making up "facts" about what we want and using the same old "the null leaders of (insert powerblock) are all rmt overloards and have an alternative motive" that have been tossed about for over a decade.