These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: All That Is Gold Does Not Glitter - Data Sites, Expeditions

First post First post First post
Author
Dalron
0.0 Massive Dynamic
Pandemic Horde
#141 - 2014-10-16 05:05:55 UTC
Some very positive changes here, however Adding the same sites into 1-3 wormhole space may increase daytrippers, the data/relic sites in wormhole space C3-C6 are equally unbalanced, the data sites are worthless compared to the relic sites. Additionally there's not even a chance of a faction drop so that most times they are farmed for the sleepers and the sites never even opened.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#142 - 2014-10-16 05:53:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Have to disagree with Obsidian Hawk here.
The way it currently is you go and look up a site guide, or you have to shoot EVERYTHING in the site.

Maybe introduce some non module related 'analyse area' effect (links off the Deep scan panel or something) which creates the pop up telling you what interesting notes you have found in the area. Give anywhere with rat wrecks a 0.01% chance of creating a sec related escalation, because hey, more people travelling and doing things other than missions or rating the same system continuously is good. Then any sig that would normally escalate escalates like currently also.

That means the players have to interact with the system, but it's not the current random shoot or read an off site guide.
All the pop ups are doing is integrating the off site guides into EVE, which isn't terrible.



Ok I will say that is a better idea a good analysis tool or something in the scanner that brings up the info would be better. I just hate the idea of giving out all the information with no effort.



Now as for other stuff that has been brought up. Yes make cans unscannable.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#143 - 2014-10-16 06:02:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Torgeir Hekard
A little observation regarding escalations.

I live in Solitude. And HS unrated sites often escalate into Essence or Verge Vendor or somewhere else 35 jumps away (that's ONE stage and a shortest route).

I would not mind running through low and null as such. But 35 jumps (actually at least around 50 if you count all the stages) to (im)probably get a 3/10 worth of loot is meh to say the least.

There probably should be some kind of border check that prevents spawning an escalation that requires a route through a space with security status different from the security status of the escalation system in question (or a max range limit). Because the only reason I can think of why it sends me 35 jumps away is because it can not find a HS system farther than N jumps in Solitude and thus finds the next nearest one. Which happens to be on the other side of Syndicate. Or Aridia.
Han Ostus
The Grey Eagles
#144 - 2014-10-16 06:09:52 UTC
Quote:
The general consensus right now is that Relic sites are worth more than their Data site counterparts when it comes to the basic ISK per hour and this is something that we’ve had on our radar for a while.


I hope you are aware that in highsec, it's the other way round, and relic sites are nearly worthless compared to data sites, at least in Gallente space. I know highsec exploration is hardly worth it at all, but still you probably don't want to unbalance this even further with regard to the new players.
Maennas Vaer
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2014-10-16 06:14:58 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Hey I have one thought,

Don't tell people which structure to shoot honestly. It's that inability for people to actually use the EvE Wiki, which tells people to shoot, that seperates the good explorers from everyone looking to just run the site and leave. I have come in on a lot of sites that were just cleared but the escalation trigger was never done.

You cant spoon feed exploration, this is supposed to be a profession that makes people think.



But while you are balancing, could you add rats back to data sites? There is no risk with a lot of the exploration sites especially in high sec. Since you are adding in more loot with better rewards the risk needs to be raised more.


We've not put the messages in all the 'parent' sites. Just a few to see how it goes for now.
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.


I cannot disagree more strongly with the sentiments of Obsidian Hawk. Exploration in game should be just that, in game. I should not be required to leave the game to get to the next step in anything PVE related. Testing my google skills is not relevant to my serious business internet spaceships skills. A happy balance would be to give us some sort of journal entry with lots of text talking about a few different things "rumored" to have worked in the past, or some sort of vague hint. Expecting me to shoot everything once or to go to an external site is silly (wasting time shooting everything) or immersion breaking (going to google/wiki).


Exactly this.
ORLICZ
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2014-10-16 06:17:23 UTC
wtf??


if smth cost 11 mil and u ad drop rate x2 so new value of drop will be more than 11 mil ?? wrong... stock will crash :P



yes u can increase drop frequency BUT then u need lower amount of Relic sites and data sites
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2014-10-16 06:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
Not that I have any idea about that stuff (I've never done it - go figure) but sure cool yeah.

Regarding the "wall-of-text":
So instead of a nicely crafted missionstatement that offers immersion we get another arbitrary text that could be shortened to

Do fly there
if red crosses ______________ ## start locking on those frigs cause bigger ones don't point - whyever that is
then shoot red crosses, loot __ ## kill the one with highest bounty last, the cargocontainer dropped
else loot ___________________## usually a warehouse
do fly back _________________ ## usually to where you started unless you to distribution

Seriously though I never bothered to read those short ones. all end up with you flying to the one or other arbitray place that supposedly houses some sort of PvE mechanic that one will never observe (The Blockade, Pick your poison etc) outside of a mission and you usually just go there and start shooting weirdly grouped bunches of differently thick red crosses till they're all gone. Spacedust will magi-- i mean scientifically turn into newly printed shiny ISK right into your wallet.

TL;DR: immersion from tutorial gone - now as bland as most PvE content


EDIT:
I think the faction droptable is missing a few items to fully reverse engineer Pirate T3s ... xD
Zur Zur
Riemannian Manifold Torus
#148 - 2014-10-16 06:40:00 UTC
CCP please remove excalations from anomalies.
Plexing no farm.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#149 - 2014-10-16 06:48:01 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Hey I have one thought,

Don't tell people which structure to shoot honestly. It's that inability for people to actually use the EvE Wiki, which tells people to shoot, that seperates the good explorers from everyone looking to just run the site and leave. I have come in on a lot of sites that were just cleared but the escalation trigger was never done.

You cant spoon feed exploration, this is supposed to be a profession that makes people think.



But while you are balancing, could you add rats back to data sites? There is no risk with a lot of the exploration sites especially in high sec. Since you are adding in more loot with better rewards the risk needs to be raised more.


We've not put the messages in all the 'parent' sites. Just a few to see how it goes for now.
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.


I cannot disagree more strongly with the sentiments of Obsidian Hawk. Exploration in game should be just that, in game. I should not be required to leave the game to get to the next step in anything PVE related. Testing my google skills is not relevant to my serious business internet spaceships skills. A happy balance would be to give us some sort of journal entry with lots of text talking about a few different things "rumored" to have worked in the past, or some sort of vague hint. Expecting me to shoot everything once or to go to an external site is silly (wasting time shooting everything) or immersion breaking (going to google/wiki).


Spot on +1

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2014-10-16 06:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
They have a mean active tank so running them with your 500 DPS Ishtar is inefficient. I complete them in five minutes solo with a 1.2k DPS ship and earn on average ~20m/site just from bounties, ship skins, and covert research tools.


Quote:
Besiged sites are currently a very unique high risk, high reward PVE activity unlike anything else in Eve. Please don't try to change them just because you can't efficiently run them with your Ishtar like everything else.


I actually run them in an Eagle, but same concept. The fact that you choose to run these sites in a 1B+ ship with very long range scramming rats in low/null for what amounts to far less than 100m/hr doesn't make these sites a balanced income source. It just makes you and me and everyone else running them gluttons for punishment. While 20m/site sounds right, you are not going to find sites back to back and a Marauder is not exactly a fast warping ship.

If you are in nullsec you might as well rat in a carrier or blinged-out Ishtar; put the same cost of ship at risk for AFK income that is better and more consistent across the board. For lowsec we could be blitzing L4 FW missions at a fraction of the cost or, since you are willing to put a Marauder on the line, doing DED escalations for what would likely work out to better income overall.

I'm not saying they aren't fun (after all, I am running them too), I'm just saying for the risk/time investment, the income is not on par with other activities. I can only assume most other people have drawn that same conclusion because, at least in low-sec, I routinely find three of four of these in a system untapped in areas with reasonable amounts of traffic.

EDIT: Also implicit in my assumption is the fact that since it requires extensive travel (unlike, say, nullsec carrier ratting), you are most likely going to have a second account/scout at least partially dedicated to providing cover. That means you have to account for the opportunity cost on that second account. Unless you are in the habit of jumping Marauders blind through low-sec gates; I dunno maybe you are :)
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#151 - 2014-10-16 06:57:12 UTC
Quote:


Lowered the volume of the most commonly dropped items (Electric Conduits for example) in exploration Data Sites from 1.0 (and above) to 0.5.


Erm...
Maybe I am missing something... but all these items like Electric conduits, Power Cords, Bulkhead somethings etc.

Are they good for ANYTHING except for manufacturing of Interfaces which are meant to be removed from the game when Invention an Reverse Engineering get streamlined?
Aspecter en Welle
Iris Covenant
The Gorgon Empire
#152 - 2014-10-16 07:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aspecter en Welle
Quote:
We’ve also added all of the Data and Relic exploration sites found in Null Security space to Wormhole Class 1, 2 and 3 systems. So feel free to venture forth into the deeper, darker unknown if you’re feeling dangerously loot frisky.


Wrong way.
Why? Eve Chronicles contradict this innovation.
Who live in WH? Sleepers (really, its true) and players. Any time we see a ghost sites.
What will? WH-players can make all T1/T2 rigs, fractional POS modules, AAR, ASB, LMJD, MMJD, TB in W-space not flying to HS.
Newbies? All newbies die in W-Space. Sooner or later. Small part of new players goes to W-Space for relic and data farming.
Old players? Ambush relicrunners (no guns, small defence, no local, no informaton) in WH.
Scanners? More work. More signatures -> more work. It no funny.

CCP RedDawn?

ex-RusEVERadio leader

Ireland - terrorists and guiness. Iceland - ice and Eve

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#153 - 2014-10-16 07:58:11 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:


  • The Interface BPCs and the items to build them (Electric Conduits etc) were already very low ISK value, and still very bulky, even at 0.5 m3. The removal of Interfaces from the Invention process means they will be worth even less, as there are less applications for them in manufacturing. Other than some very obscure items or Storyline mods, they aren't worth picking up. The changes you've made just add more crap items to the Data sites to sift through or throw away.


  • Ok, someone else already made the point. Credits to Ransu.

    All these Faction materials like
    Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism
    Angel Advanced Trigger Mechanism
    Angel Spatial Analyzer
    Angel Standard Trigger Mechanism
    ...

    as well as the mentioned Electric Conduits after the removal of interfaces (as announced in this devblog http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/lighting-the-invention-bulb/)
    ARE ONLY GOOD FOR META 6 "COSMOS" ITEMS.

    So while some of them are really "shiny" now, their value will quickly diminish in the weeks following Phoebe. There is simply no steady supply of the necessary BPCs.
    Every Character can do the COSMOS missions only once.
    Nowadays COSMOS modules are incredibly expensive, because aforementioned faction materials are incredibly rare. If the droprate of those in the Data sites is not entirely abysmal, then the bottleneck will be the BPCs after a short transition phase and all the faction materials will turn into junk items (supply greatly exceeds demand).

    Please consider adding meta 6 BPCs to Data Sites with a sensible drop rate compared to the drop rates of all the materials.
    This would increase variety, create a lot of new VIABLE fitting options and generally make a lot more sense!
    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #154 - 2014-10-16 08:44:40 UTC
    These look like great changes.

    My only feedback would be to add these little things:

    1) An indication an Anomaly/Signature has been complete even if it doesn't lead anywhere. At the minute, if you complete an anomaly and it doesn't escalate, the only way to know it's complete is to see it disappear from the discovery scanner window.

    2) The ability to "Sell" or transfer an expedition via the contract system. This way when running anoms, if the person awarded the anom has to leave, the fleet doesn't loose the expedition.

    3) Moar sites. They're all a bit samey after a while. They also don't really promote team play as they're mostly (1/10 to 7/10) easily solo-able.
    Jeremiah Saken
    The Fall of Leviathan
    #155 - 2014-10-16 08:48:39 UTC
    CCP RedDawn wrote:
    As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.

    Maybe never? This would take us back to pre odyssey boring nonexploration. Not to mention the choice of ships would be smaller (SoE, T3). I don't want to change my T3 setup every jump in null for shooting/scanning/hacking. I want to explore cluster not playing fitting game with mobile depot.
    Want to shoot reds do missions
    or
    just make proper hybrid scanning/shooting/hacking site. Ghost sites change?

    It's not exploration problem that nullsec is empty and safer than lowsec. Covops can be caught by proper gate camp, is it explorers fault that there's no hunters in null?

    As for data cans content? To illustrate: I have two cargo containers in my cargo hold. One is named data the other one relics. I can explore casually for a week in null and 120m3 of relics container wouldn't be full. I can do 3 data sites and adequate cargo container would be full, with proposed changes i could do 6 sites. I don't even compare ISK. This sites need overhaul. Instead you just keep pushing more high volume, not worth looting stuff. We not doing them in badgers...

    You have done some changes in research, isn't it obvious road to follow (datacores, decryptors)?

    "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

    dirtydebbs
    the wreking crew
    #156 - 2014-10-16 09:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: dirtydebbs
    Not sure if it has been mentiond but with the escalation part of these sites where does that sit in wh space ?

    Will it be in same system or are you give my out free bookmarks to some one else wh home to run the site in there ?

    Or is the escalation in k-space?

    Either of the above will be broken as in :-

    Getting out of original wh and then back into the new wh means a possible hike from one end of Eve to the other and if it it a populated wh ure dead period,

    If escalation is in same system that's way to easy

    Best thing to do is make new data relic sites for wh space to incorporate the fact traveling for escolar ion is almost impossible so a general increase for wh space is nothing, people would more than likely run first part but unable to complete the escolation.


    On a slightly diffrent note all these changes to wh space c5,6 unaffected c1,2,3 slight increase if any with relic data sites,
    What's happaning to c4 Space ?? It's now almost non efficient to run solo if at all and I mean solo 1 account U now need 2-3 but no increase in loot for sites.
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #157 - 2014-10-16 09:54:12 UTC
    Why was the chance for these Tool component items (Internal Bulkheads, Electronic Conduit, Armor Blocks, etc.) not lowered and the chance for other items (like data cores and decryptors) increased? After Phoebe, the only real use for these components, ie. the manufacturing of tools, is being removed and only COSMOS items use them, if at all. Couldn't you have replaced the bigger part of drop chance of these components with higher drop chance of actually useful items?

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #158 - 2014-10-16 10:50:21 UTC
    I rarely post outside of F&I, but I felt extremely compelled to say that telling the player which structure to shoot feels like the sort of dumbing-down that even CCP can't magic-handwave away as "optimization" or "streamlining".

    You're flat-out telling them what they need to do to proceed. Stop that. If the player can't be bothered to stop drooling on themselves long enough to investigate beyond simply "kill everything that moves because pretty explosions", then do they really deserve that escalation? Or has CCP decided "everyone should be able to have access to everything, no matter what, and having to think or investigate is for other games"?

    TL;DR -
    For the love of all things, scale back your "shoot this structure to get bacon" into a hint "there may be bacon here, but you'll have to look for it." This is EVE, not preschool.
    Samuel Wess
    Doomheim
    #159 - 2014-10-16 10:58:48 UTC
    The reward/risk/ship size/number of pilots/number of jumps required to do escalations is worst than
    mining veldspar, at least in Stain. Regular escalation takes 50 jumps trough 3 regions with battleship
    sized ships. The new resources introduced are risk free and at least 5 x times better income, and can
    be gathered in fast warping nullifed cloaked ships. The escalations from SOV space are only 12 jumps
    distance and usually same region.

    Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #160 - 2014-10-16 11:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    I rarely post outside of F&I, but I felt extremely compelled to say that telling the player which structure to shoot feels like the sort of dumbing-down that even CCP can't magic-handwave away as "optimization" or "streamlining".

    You're flat-out telling them what they need to do to proceed. Stop that. If the player can't be bothered to stop drooling on themselves long enough to investigate beyond simply "kill everything that moves because pretty explosions", then do they really deserve that escalation? Or has CCP decided "everyone should be able to have access to everything, no matter what, and having to think or investigate is for other games"?

    TL;DR -
    For the love of all things, scale back your "shoot this structure to get bacon" into a hint "there may be bacon here, but you'll have to look for it." This is EVE, not preschool.



    I kind of agree that these "Ample" infomation blocks, although quite "Compact" on the screen give extremely clear and "Scoped" objectives. Perhaps you could be a little more "Restrained" in your infomation giving to prevent any further dumbing down and the bitter vets might be a little more "Enduring" with you.

    I'd also like to see the sites objective become a little more complex. Instead of just shooting a structure why aren't we hacking it to retreive the data. This might help give the game a little more dpeth.

    Also, the mechanics of the "Expedition" system are a little dull. The expeditions tend to all be a "Step 1: go here, shoot a couple of rats. Then Step 2: Go here, shoot a couple of rats. Then Step 3: Go here and shoot a couple of rats. and this continues till you get to the end. You basically go on a little ride around a region of space doing very little of interest until you maybe get to the end and then possibly get phat loot.

    I think this system could be broadened a little. I mean, why not "go undercover" or something. Say site one there was a hauler of some sort. you blow it up and it drops all of its cargo and a message saying where it was going to deliver it to. You could either keep the cargo (which would be quite valuable due to high volume of it) or take the cargo in a hauler yourself to the "drop off" and get to the next expedition point that way.


    The whole thing really could use some fleshing out.


    How about this:

    Release your PvE content design tools and let the community design some missions and anomalies and expeditions and all that stuff for you. Then you simply test it and if it works/isn't broken to simply be an isk faucet, release that player made PvE content. This way you get stacks of new PvE content made for you!!