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Caps Using Gates: Time to Fix Warp Align Animation

Author
Gwailar
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-10-09 17:28:11 UTC
1) There's no atmosphere in space.
2) Spaceships don't rely on wings for lift and maneuvering.
3) Having ships bank into their turns during warp align is distinctly like atmospheric flight, not like spaceflight.
4) EVE has lots of really big ships with no wings at all. Currently when they align, they bank hard like full on fighter jets.

Having ships bank doesn't look terrible with some smaller ships (like the Condor) because they're fast and maybe look sort of fighterish.

But big ships roll around like stupid whales for no reason. It looks terrible.

Now that caps and supers are going to be using gates, I'm having terrible visions of the most powerful vessels in New Eden rolling around like walruses on a waterbed every time they align to their next jump.

It's high time warp alignment animation is adjusted to get rid of the ridiculous roll, basically for anything that isn't a frigate or cruiser, but especially for caps and above.

Posted with a nod to this suggestion.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-10-09 17:51:13 UTC
So, you would rather the force vector send your meal into a wall, rather than pushing it firmly down on the table in front of you. Personally, I don't want to have spend more money on janitors to clean the last batch of janitors that get flung into a bulkhead every time I align out from Jita.
Gwailar
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-10-09 18:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwailar
Komi Toran wrote:
So, you would rather the force vector send your meal into a wall, rather than pushing it firmly down on the table in front of you. Personally, I don't want to have spend more money on janitors to clean the last batch of janitors that get flung into a bulkhead every time I align out from Jita.

Well, if New Eden spaceship technology doesn't include internal gravity and also inertia dampers, I would say the few paltry Gs pulled during an alignment turn are the least of your worries, seeing as you immediately accelerate to warp velocity. Hope your janitors have enough spatulas to scrape everybody off the rear bulkheads.

I mean, my assumption was that all the thousands of people on these ships actually get to walk around and stuff, sipping Romulan ale and playing three-dimensional chess in Ten Forward, rather than wearing G-suits and strapping in all the time.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-10-09 18:07:44 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Well, if New Eden spaceship technology doesn't include internal gravity and also inertia dampers, I would say the few paltry Gs pulled during an alignment turn are the least of your worries, seeing as you immediately accelerate to warp velocity. Hope your janitors have enough spatulas to scrape everybody off the rear bulkheads.

Warp doesn't play with inertia. Its entire point is to circumvent F=mv^2, as you aren't accelerating the mass past c, but rather stretching/compressing space outside the bubble. You would experience no sensation of acceleration when entering warp, so neither artificial gravity nor inertial dampeners are necessary to survive. (You do, however, need some way to disperse the shockwave of high-energy particles your ship will release upon arrival, otherwise you kill everything at your destination).
Gwailar
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-10-09 18:14:39 UTC
Oi. I feel like I just got nerdgasm splooged.

The idea that all the occupants of these ships are subject to G forces from ship movements is 1) stupid, 2) irrelevant.

The bottom line is that the current one-size-fits-all warp align animation roll looks really bad and out of place on the big vessels. It can't be terribly difficult to fix from a technical point of view. Finding a better looking alternative is probably the challenge.

Still, it's worth doing.

Star Destroyers don't roll every time they turn. The Enterprise doesn't roll every time it turns. Ditto for Battlestars.

EVE's big vessels should operate the same way as those ships.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
Space Brutality
#6 - 2014-10-09 18:24:07 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
1) There's no atmosphere in space.
2) Spaceships don't rely on wings for lift and maneuvering.
3) Having ships bank into their turns during warp align is distinctly like atmospheric flight, not like spaceflight.
4) EVE has lots of really big ships with no wings at all. Currently when they align, they bank hard like full on fighter jets.

Having ships bank doesn't look terrible with some smaller ships (like the Condor) because they're fast and maybe look sort of fighterish.

But big ships roll around like stupid whales for no reason. It looks terrible.

Now that caps and supers are going to be using gates, I'm having terrible visions of the most powerful vessels in New Eden rolling around like walruses on a waterbed every time they align to their next jump.

It's high time warp alignment animation is adjusted to get rid of the ridiculous roll, basically for anything that isn't a frigate or cruiser, but especially for caps and above.

Posted with a nod to this suggestion.



1. what does there being no atmosphere in space have to with it?

2. spaceships dont have wings? tell star trek that since you want to quote them with romulan ale and 10-forward

3. perhaps the banking the ships have to do is to align maneuvering thrusters around so it can push the way you want to go, every seen the shuttle discovery fire thrusters other then its main engine? i have, even satellites use it too

4. the hard banks are generally when you sit still as the maneuvering thrusters just have to fire against the direction you wish to go IE you want to go left from a stand still, the thrusters on the right fire turning you left. How ever the reason why large ships turn like whales while moving is the maneuvering thrusters fire while the main engines are still sending you forward making your course in an arch. Now im assuming you drive a car so imagine doing a U-Turn, your front wheels you use to turn are your maneuvering thrusters, (a car can be front wheel, rear wheel, or 4 wheel drive) is your main thrusters, doing that U-turn your path is an arch, but you can do a point turn with a "hard bank" by turning your front wheels and keeping them from moving while your wheel wheels (on a rear wheel drive car) shift the rear end of the car around to the direction you want to go with out any forward movement, its something i do for fun in my small pick-up.

disclaimer: do not try these stunts at home, personal injury may result. Stunts are best left for professionals.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Gwailar
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-10-09 18:34:44 UTC
Agondray wrote:
1. what does there being no atmosphere in space have to with it?

Sigh. Airplanes bank when they turn because the lift provided by airflow across their wing surfaces facilitates the turn.

Agondray wrote:
2. spaceships dont have wings? tell star trek that since you want to quote them with romulan ale and 10-forward

Sigh. In English, the words "Spaceships don't rely on wings for lift and maneuvering" do not mean the same thing as the words "spaceships don't have wings."

Agondray wrote:
3. perhaps the banking the ships have to do is to align maneuvering thrusters around so it can push the way you want to go, every seen the shuttle discovery fire thrusters other then its main engine? i have, even satellites use it too

Sigh. Shuttlecraft and satellites are poor analogies for starships bigger than skyscrapers.

Agondray wrote:
4. words

Obviously thrusters are involved. The question is, in the absence of wing surfaces using airflow to roll naturally, why would a starship have a special set of thrusters who's entire function was to cause the ship to roll needlessly back and forth?

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-10-09 18:37:37 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
The bottom line is that the current one-size-fits-all warp align animation roll looks really bad and out of place on the big vessels. It can't be terribly difficult to fix from a technical point of view. Finding a better looking alternative is probably the challenge.

We've been waiting for the elimination of "up" in Eve-space since the game launched. Based on that, how long do you think it would take?
Gwailar wrote:
Star Destroyers don't roll every time they turn.

Star Destroyers turn at an absolutely glacial pace, similar to how an ocean liner turns. I've never seen a depiction where they turn on a dime like in Eve.
Gwailar wrote:
The Enterprise doesn't roll every time it turns.

The Enterprise has battles in the middle of nowhere, runs into "blockades" that stretch out along a line a few hundred kilometers long in 3-dimensional space. And despite being able to turn inertia on and off, its primary combat strategy is to stay in a single spot and press F1. I think it's safe to say that nothing about Star Trek should be taken as a model for how things work in space.
Gwailar wrote:
Ditto for Battlestars.

Battlestars have three pieces of stockfootage where they travel in a straight line, and Starbuck is a man. Anything else is heresy.
Notorious Fellon
#9 - 2014-10-09 19:18:20 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
So, you would rather the force vector send your meal into a wall, rather than pushing it firmly down on the table in front of you. Personally, I don't want to have spend more money on janitors to clean the last batch of janitors that get flung into a bulkhead every time I align out from Jita.

Well, if New Eden spaceship technology doesn't include internal gravity and also inertia dampers, I would say the few paltry Gs pulled during an alignment turn are the least of your worries, seeing as you immediately accelerate to warp velocity. Hope your janitors have enough spatulas to scrape everybody off the rear bulkheads.

I mean, my assumption was that all the thousands of people on these ships actually get to walk around and stuff, sipping Romulan ale and playing three-dimensional chess in Ten Forward, rather than wearing G-suits and strapping in all the time.



No one is allowed to drink that kind of trash on my bridge! Mimosa or GTFO!

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#10 - 2014-10-10 02:43:59 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
. Airplanes bank when they turn because the lift provided by airflow across their wing surfaces facilitates the turn


Ah this is only partially correct. Aircraft can execute exactly the same turn with significantly less angle of bank, or turn significantly faster with greater angles of bank provided you are willing to literally toss people and items around the cabin. How much a modern commercial airliner banks for any given speed and rate of turn is careful controlled to keep the g forces on the passengers in control and prevent them and the items in the cabin from being thrown about. These g forces would apply in space even though there is no air so at least some form of bank would be needed to overcome them.

As for the animation for warp align it is all a matter of personal preference but it would be interesting for CCP to eliminate or significantly reduce it to see what the reaction from the game community would be.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#11 - 2014-10-10 03:43:04 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Gwailar wrote:
Well, if New Eden spaceship technology doesn't include internal gravity and also inertia dampers, I would say the few paltry Gs pulled during an alignment turn are the least of your worries, seeing as you immediately accelerate to warp velocity. Hope your janitors have enough spatulas to scrape everybody off the rear bulkheads.

Warp doesn't play with inertia. Its entire point is to circumvent F=mv^2, as you aren't accelerating the mass past c, but rather stretching/compressing space outside the bubble. You would experience no sensation of acceleration when entering warp, so neither artificial gravity nor inertial dampeners are necessary to survive. (You do, however, need some way to disperse the shockwave of high-energy particles your ship will release upon arrival, otherwise you kill everything at your destination).

Eves warp drives work by making a super vacum, They are NOT Alcubierre Drives.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-10-10 04:00:33 UTC
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Eves warp drives work by making a super vacum, They are NOT Alcubierre Drives.

Well, they also "compress" the vacuum... but after reading the description, I admit: I have no idea how Eve's warp drives are actually supposed to work, but I'm fairly certain there's a witch involved.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
New Eden Corporation 98713347
Brotherhood of Spacers
#13 - 2014-10-10 04:24:40 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Eves warp drives work by making a super vacum, They are NOT Alcubierre Drives.

Well, they also "compress" the vacuum... but after reading the description, I admit: I have no idea how Eve's warp drives are actually supposed to work, but I'm fairly certain there's a witch involved.

2 Witches actually, And several hamsters. And a Virgin Sacrifice to a volcano.P
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#14 - 2014-10-10 04:43:11 UTC
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Eves warp drives work by making a super vacum, They are NOT Alcubierre Drives.

Well, they also "compress" the vacuum... but after reading the description, I admit: I have no idea how Eve's warp drives are actually supposed to work, but I'm fairly certain there's a witch involved.

2 Witches actually, And several hamsters. And a Virgin Sacrifice to a volcano.P


You forgot goat's blood and a shrubbery.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Gwailar
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-10-10 13:30:08 UTC
Trolls. Trolls I say!
All of you.

The fact that people are not clamoring for this change has opened up my eyes to how terrible CCP is. If they don't fix this null will be ruined forever by the awfulness of walrus cap fleets. You hear me CCP? That's seven unsubs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2014-10-10 13:45:14 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Trolls. Trolls I say!
All of you.

The fact that people are not clamoring for this change has opened up my eyes to how terrible CCP is. If they don't fix this null will be ruined forever by the awfulness of walrus cap fleets. You hear me CCP? That's seven unsubs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You understand that thousands of capitals have used warp to get from system to system for years and this hasn't caused a problem. CCP has even stated that the reason the caps do this is because the align faster then there model as when they make the model move as fast as the align time it looks off and has odd effects like the ship jumping and snapping into place the current visual representation we have is the best solution they have found thus far.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-10-10 14:25:44 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
1) There's no atmosphere in space.
2) Spaceships don't rely on wings for lift and maneuvering.
3) Having ships bank into their turns during warp align is distinctly like atmospheric flight, not like spaceflight.
4) EVE has lots of really big ships with no wings at all. Currently when they align, they bank hard like full on fighter jets.

Having ships bank doesn't look terrible with some smaller ships (like the Condor) because they're fast and maybe look sort of fighterish.

But big ships roll around like stupid whales for no reason. It looks terrible.

Now that caps and supers are going to be using gates, I'm having terrible visions of the most powerful vessels in New Eden rolling around like walruses on a waterbed every time they align to their next jump.

It's high time warp alignment animation is adjusted to get rid of the ridiculous roll, basically for anything that isn't a frigate or cruiser, but especially for caps and above.

Posted with a nod to this suggestion.


In EVE, warp drives are technically always online, even when you are not mid-warp. The lore states that the online, but inactive warp drive creates a slight drag on the ship, causing motion to act in a way simulating fluid dynamics as opposed to movement through a vacuum.

That is (lore-wise) why ships bank and roll.
Gwailar
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-10-10 14:28:57 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
In EVE, warp drives are technically always online, even when you are not mid-warp. The lore states that the online, but inactive warp drive creates a slight drag on the ship, causing motion to act in a way simulating fluid dynamics as opposed to movement through a vacuum.

That is (lore-wise) why ships bank and roll.


Aha. Good to know!
Although . . . definitely a narrative cop out.

Do you have a link?

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-10-10 14:37:22 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Petre en Thielles wrote:
In EVE, warp drives are technically always online, even when you are not mid-warp. The lore states that the online, but inactive warp drive creates a slight drag on the ship, causing motion to act in a way simulating fluid dynamics as opposed to movement through a vacuum.

That is (lore-wise) why ships bank and roll.


Aha. Good to know!
Although . . . definitely a narrative cop out.

Do you have a link?


I don't remember where I read it, unfortunately. It was a while ago...

Hopefully someone else has a link. Definitely a cop-out, but a game based on real space physics (you can keep accelerating and have no max speed with any ship) would be hard to actually play.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2014-10-10 14:39:24 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Petre en Thielles wrote:
In EVE, warp drives are technically always online, even when you are not mid-warp. The lore states that the online, but inactive warp drive creates a slight drag on the ship, causing motion to act in a way simulating fluid dynamics as opposed to movement through a vacuum.

That is (lore-wise) why ships bank and roll.


Aha. Good to know!
Although . . . definitely a narrative cop out.

Do you have a link?


i think its less of a cop out and more because it looks more natural to the majority of players that they wen't with this (some what may have also been do to limitations...the games old man)