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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Andraea Sarstae
Circle of Steel Inc.
#401 - 2014-10-09 23:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Andraea Sarstae
Isengrimus wrote:
These changes are great. Many thanks for taking the playerbase feedback into account and carry on with reshaping nullsec.

Hahaha, that's sweet. Well, that's exactly the point - if you, as a carebear, can't get organised to defend your system against possible BO drop, then you will lose it as you should. Changes to BO are still nerfing them too much, but as a compromise, the actual players of EvE (i.e., PVPers) are ready to accept them I believe.


Who said I was a carebear? This is just my industry alt. I haven't mined or ratted in months :-P

I just know that game mechanics that allow someone to *easily* and *repeatedly* turn 1-on-1s into a mostly risk-free 20 on 1 is bad game design, especially when there is no practical defense against the initiator other than "go somewhere else", because said initiator is cloaked up and untouchable.

You should have to work for your kills a little.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2014-10-09 23:11:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
Camios wrote:
If what you say is correct, basically the nerf can totally be negated by using ship caches.

And it just got a lot easier now that Jump Freighters have nearly their entire range back!

They are still being heavily nerfed due to fatigue. Only JF's ping pong cyno.
Bytestorm
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#403 - 2014-10-09 23:15:13 UTC
There it goes... Players cry, devs backpedal.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2014-10-09 23:16:55 UTC
Bytestorm wrote:
There it goes... Players cry, devs backpedal.


Moar tears please.
Plukovnik
Dark Necesstity
#405 - 2014-10-09 23:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Plukovnik
ADarwinAward Winner wrote:
9 LY lets jump freighters cover most of the regional gaps. Don't go all the way to 10.


That is very bad idea. 9Ly would be very small handicap for nullsec sov holders, but terrible pain for Stain residents, because there would be no way to reach Stain than taking way via enemy territory, which is crazy with JF. And making something that would mean just minor hassle to sov holders near Stain, but mean total unreachability of Stain for Stain residents is not very fair is it? I even think that CCP should add some 2-3 lowsec systems with good stations (Saminer has kickout station I think) in distance below 10Ly from Stain to make life of Stain residents little bit possible and not make it that way that Stain would actually be inhabittable only by those who hold Catch.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#406 - 2014-10-09 23:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse.

How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded.

"Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit.

EDIT: And if you're so incredibly worried about Stain, how about just adding a gate to the game that connects stain to either NPC Delve or lowsec Aridia, (Venal needs this same gate) and then all your NPC sec would be easier access and you wouldn't need to soft hand these changes that the game needs.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#407 - 2014-10-09 23:20:58 UTC
Plukovnik wrote:
ADarwinAward Winner wrote:
9 LY lets jump freighters cover most of the regional gaps. Don't go all the way to 10.


That is very bad idea. 9Ly would be very small handicap for nullsec sov holders, but terrible pain for Stain residents, because there would be no way to reach Stain than taking way via enemy territory, which is crazy with JF. And making something that would mean just minor hassle to sov holders near Stain, but mean total unreachability of Stain for Stain residents is not very fair is it? I even think that CCP should add some 2-3 lowsec systems with good stations (Saminer has kickout station I think) in distance below 10Ly from Stain to make life of Stain residents little bit possible and not make it that way that Stain would actually be inhabittable only by those who hold Catch.

Why can we not have one region which is difficult to access with jump freighter. CCP could then use it as a test bed to see how things adapt.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#408 - 2014-10-09 23:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Grath Telkin wrote:
Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse.

How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded.

"Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit.

Yeah, I agree -- backpedaling on the JF range made me pretty disappointed. Geography almost mattered again.

Also, increasing blackops BS range is a bit of a WTF, but at least it's not that much.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#409 - 2014-10-09 23:23:46 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Greyscales vision is probably ahead of its time

The time for freighter convoys and 5ly jump range for JFs is now.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
El Deuce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#410 - 2014-10-09 23:29:04 UTC
Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#411 - 2014-10-09 23:31:08 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse.

How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded.

"Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit.

Yeah, I agree -- backpedaling on the JF range made me pretty disappointed. Geography almost mattered again.

Also, increasing blackops BS range is a bit of a WTF, but at least it's not that much.

To be honest, if we could tone back both those changes, then things would be looking a damn sight better. The jump freighter doesn't have to be 10 light years, 8 light years would be still be enough to make things a little more interesting but still not completely gimp logistics. 10 LY is basically keeping the status quo as geography has no relevance at that range.

Jump freighter 8 LY and black ops at 6 LY with the 50% fatigue, and that would be progressive without completely upturning everything in one fell swoop.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#412 - 2014-10-09 23:31:44 UTC
El Deuce wrote:
Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged?

If it's a Deep Space Transport (and you have Transport Ships 5, I think,) you can fit a packaged battleship inside its fleet hangar with about 10k to spare for modules and ammo.

Nevermind that they align and warp like pigs.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#413 - 2014-10-09 23:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nazri al Mahdi
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse.

How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded.

"Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit.

Yeah, I agree -- backpedaling on the JF range made me pretty disappointed. Geography almost mattered again.

Also, increasing blackops BS range is a bit of a WTF, but at least it's not that much.

To be honest, if we could tone back both those changes, then things would be looking a damn sight better. The jump freighter doesn't have to be 10 light years, 8 light years would be still be enough to make things a little more interesting but still not completely gimp logistics. 10 LY is basically keeping the status quo as geography has no relevance at that range.

Jump freighter 8 LY and black ops at 6 LY with the 50% fatigue, and that would be progressive without completely upturning everything in one fell swoop.


I'm one of the main whiners and even I said giving JF the same range as BLOPS (which I thought would be 7.5 LY) would be acceptable. 10LY is... shocking. I asked for it, but only as a negotiating position....

5LY is way too ****ing short though.

I wonder what the Telkin thinks of 7.5 or 8 LY for JF?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#414 - 2014-10-09 23:38:11 UTC
Hey guys, lets nerf sub caps ability to travel by anything but gates, oh except t1 haulers, thats a good idea because they take about 20 minutes to train to use and suddenly you can have unimpeded access to your JB network and travel just as fast as before, and because CCP collectively have the spine of a Man O War, theres a ton of ships waiting for you after you moved from Tenal to Delve through bridges because making logistics guys take gates is a sin but making the people who sit mind numbling bored shooting structures have the same rules applied to them sounds like a crime.

Thanks for literally nothing.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
TheGreatConstructo
Electrocuted Wanderers
#415 - 2014-10-09 23:38:19 UTC
Going back on the previously proposed changes is very disappointing.

By including jump freighters in the changes it would have made geography and regional differences meaningful again. The people whom were whining about the original proposal lack creativity.

When the original proposal many of us got together to discuss how to start doing more industry in null. How to adjust our logistics to make things work, and how to utilize the resources in our area to get the best results. How combat might be changed. Myself and many others were excited about the changes.

If a region was far out in space for the whiners to adjust, then fine let them abandon it! Creative corporations will move in and take their place creating a new, more vibrant nullsec.

Oh well back to the status quo I guess. Nullsec geography is once again meaningless. There is no point in building anything in null because we can just go to jita. The renter empires will persist and the existing powerblocks will continue to be able to control their moons far from their bases of operations with ease.
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#416 - 2014-10-09 23:39:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90%


Is there a reason that Rorquals don't get the same 10LY range as JFs? Rorquals are used just as much for logistics as JFs, especially because their actual intended use isn't really...useful.


We didn't think it was sensible to let it keep its drone bonus and have a 10LY range, and at the end of the day the bonus won out. The ship needs a large rework anyway, and we'll revisit all this when that happens :)

Querns wrote:
Mixed feelings on this.

* I am really happy that non-combatant hauling ships are getting the 90% fatigue reduction -- that is something I had been pushing for and I'm happy you guys saw the light on that. Maybe extend this to mining ships, too?
* Pretty sad to see JFs getting 10LY range. Their 5LY range allowed for some meaningful ability to disrupt incoming logistics. 10LY eliminates a lot of possibilities here.
* Rorquals not getting the 10LY treatment is a little weird. Care to elaborate on why only JFs get the extra range?


- Mining ships we'd rather have moving through space, this is *just* intended to help with logistics
- Yes, but that logistics is already in too fragile a place to be able to reliably survive that disruption
- See above



I think that the JF ranges as now proposed are fine, it puts a little difficulty on the JF usage while not hobbling it totally for the little guys.

as far as the rorqual, I would like to see it be farther than 5 ly, however, I understand the moving through space aspects of the decision and I also think that the short range will help deter the whole battle rorqual idea as well...


Thanks Sir
your listening to our concerns is appreciated, and even (because of some recent things) a little bit of a nice surprise.

o7
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2014-10-09 23:44:55 UTC
Querns wrote:
El Deuce wrote:
Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged?

If it's a Deep Space Transport (and you have Transport Ships 5, I think,) you can fit a packaged battleship inside its fleet hangar with about 10k to spare for modules and ammo.

Nevermind that they align and warp like pigs.


You have literally every slot open to fix the alignment and warp though, which is exactly how I fit mine. It's no interceptor, but it's close to a cargo-fit blockade runner.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#418 - 2014-10-09 23:46:18 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Hey guys, lets nerf sub caps ability to travel by anything but gates, oh except t1 haulers, thats a good idea because they take about 20 minutes to train to use and suddenly you can have unimpeded access to your JB network and travel just as fast as before, and because CCP collectively have the spine of a Man O War, theres a ton of ships waiting for you after you moved from Tenal to Delve through bridges because making logistics guys take gates is a sin but making the people who sit mind numbling bored shooting structures have the same rules applied to them sounds like a crime.

Thanks for literally nothing.

I don't normally like to make posts like this, but those are some oddly specific example systems you're using there :V

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#419 - 2014-10-09 23:48:43 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Querns wrote:
El Deuce wrote:
Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged?

If it's a Deep Space Transport (and you have Transport Ships 5, I think,) you can fit a packaged battleship inside its fleet hangar with about 10k to spare for modules and ammo.

Nevermind that they align and warp like pigs.


You have literally every slot open to fix the alignment and warp though, which is exactly how I fit mine. It's no interceptor, but it's close to a cargo-fit blockade runner.

Very true. I guess I am blinded by using the slots for tank and prop mods. Goddamn DSTs are awesome now.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#420 - 2014-10-09 23:49:16 UTC
CCP this is a really good reason to get rid of the industrial/transport/freighter fatigue reduction changes:

3.7s align 7.1au/s 6M isk stabbed game breaker