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CSM, why did you sign the letter?

First post
Author
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1 - 2014-10-03 22:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
CSM, why did you sign the letter? I’ll give you an outsider’s view of what has just happened.

  1. You knew that CCP would release a dev blog during October about the first nullsec changes.
  2. Sion indicated that the jump distance nerf and cooldown proposals were discussed at the summit when he omitted these from his list of what was not discussed.
  3. You decided that a pre-emptive strike was required rather than working with CCP on the rest of the changes which were evidently going to be figured out before the second week in October.
  4. The letter was an attempt to take the initiative from CCP on the changes and to drive the agenda in a desirable direction.
  5. Rather than allowing this to occur, CCP published the dev blog early and you were therefore not adequately consulted.

In summary, you gave the finger to CCP by trying to take control of the agenda along with the null bloc leaders. They, in turn, gave you the finger by not consulting with you on some of the changes. Your position has been publicly stated and your usefulness to CCP is diminished.

(As an aside, does this mean that you did not agree with the jump distance nerf and cooldown proposals at the summit? My interpretation was that CSM sentiment was generally positive following the summit. I am puzzled - perhaps you were just afraid of being seen as irrelevant through lack of involvement. Also, are you still broadly opposed to the additional changes as per the article or was this just knee-jerk on Sion's part?)

"What else could we have done?", I hear you ask. You clearly knew about the letter in advance and could have counselled that it should not be released. It would obviously have been released anyway so you could have immediately published a CSM statement in reply. This would have been along the lines of, “CSM understands why the letter was necessary. CSM understands the issues and these are the subject of extensive discussion with CCP. CSM understands that CCP has the right to drive the agenda in their game. A roadmap of the already-drafted changes will be published in a couple of weeks and we suggest you wait for them.”

As it is, the letter looks impotent and so does the CSM. Now, you have to choose how best to represent your communities. I suggest that this is not done by always taking a popular position or a position that is defined by your leaders.

I think you have harmed the CSM as an institution. I think you have nerfed your own ability to guide CCP through the most important changes that have hit this game in a long time (possibly ever). I think that trying to wrestle the agenda from CCP when you knew that change was imminent was a mistake. You have a privileged position which you have diminished by confusing null politics with your actual intermediary role.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-10-04 01:28:16 UTC
:tinfoil:

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#3 - 2014-10-04 02:58:57 UTC
Huh? What bit? It is all thoroughly defensible. I am not suggesting any grand conspiracy but rather criticising actions.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#4 - 2014-10-04 11:49:06 UTC
I can't speak for the members who did sign it. I can speak for myself.

I didn't sign it, because it struck me as pointless grandstanding. At least from the perspective of Non-Null csm members.

For those members who live out in null, I can see a couple of pressures on them to get their name on such things.
1, from the alliance leadership, for the alliance they're part of.
2, so when it comes round to election time again, they can point at it and say 'Look! I did stuff' at something which isn't as dense as the minutes.

The CSM works best when it's not pressuring CCP (assuming that CCP isn't doing something batshit insane, when you have to be willing to burn all your bridges.) as there's no way for the CSM to force anything to happen, or for particular developers to interact with them.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-10-04 23:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Zappity wrote:
CSM, why did you sign the letter? I’ll give you an outsider’s view of what has just happened.

  1. You knew that CCP would release a dev blog during October about the first nullsec changes.
  2. Sion indicated that the jump distance nerf and cooldown proposals were discussed at the summit when he omitted these from his list of what was not discussed.
  3. You decided that a pre-emptive strike was required rather than working with CCP on the rest of the changes which were evidently going to be figured out before the second week in October.
  4. The letter was an attempt to take the initiative from CCP on the changes and to drive the agenda in a desirable direction.
  5. Rather than allowing this to occur, CCP published the dev blog early and you were therefore not adequately consulted.

In summary, you gave the finger to CCP by trying to take control of the agenda along with the null bloc leaders. They, in turn, gave you the finger by not consulting with you on some of the changes. Your position has been publicly stated and your usefulness to CCP is diminished.

(As an aside, does this mean that you did not agree with the jump distance nerf and cooldown proposals at the summit? My interpretation was that CSM sentiment was generally positive following the summit. I am puzzled - perhaps you were just afraid of being seen as irrelevant through lack of involvement. Also, are you still broadly opposed to the additional changes as per the article or was this just knee-jerk on Sion's part?)

"What else could we have done?", I hear you ask. You clearly knew about the letter in advance and could have counselled that it should not be released. It would obviously have been released anyway so you could have immediately published a CSM statement in reply. This would have been along the lines of, “CSM understands why the letter was necessary. CSM understands the issues and these are the subject of extensive discussion with CCP. CSM understands that CCP has the right to drive the agenda in their game. A roadmap of the already-drafted changes will be published in a couple of weeks and we suggest you wait for them.”

As it is, the letter looks impotent and so does the CSM. Now, you have to choose how best to represent your communities. I suggest that this is not done by always taking a popular position or a position that is defined by your leaders.

I think you have harmed the CSM as an institution. I think you have nerfed your own ability to guide CCP through the most important changes that have hit this game in a long time (possibly ever). I think that trying to wrestle the agenda from CCP when you knew that change was imminent was a mistake. You have a privileged position which you have diminished by confusing null politics with your actual intermediary role.


Yeah I'm gonna agree with Mallak here, this is pretty tinfoily, and more significantly, pretty wrong. The short version is I signed it because I agreed with it, and the letter had been something in the works long before any of this had been discussed.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-10-09 07:22:17 UTC
is rolleyes appopriate here ?










Roll

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#7 - 2014-10-09 08:11:08 UTC
I hope so! Probably.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-10-09 12:31:32 UTC
I did sign it and stand behind the ideas posted there as direction. The piece has been overtaken fast by the current null changes that ccp laid down. I can asure you that the csm is very much involved with ccp, and that there is no breach of trust or so.
For example out of my personal experience is eve online facebook and twitter both naming my eve 24 Interview and pushing it therefore.

Internally forums and channels are filled with interaction with ccp, today and yesterday we have life meetings about this and eve s future.

If anything the letter showed unity amongst most null sec focused csm members, and a believe in eve s future and its direction. Was it in hindsight necesarry, nope.

I feel i function just as **** or good as i did before
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#9 - 2014-10-11 12:04:35 UTC
Zappity wrote:
In summary, you gave the finger to CCP by trying to take control of the agenda along with the null bloc leaders.


That was kind of the point of it.

If a cake is being carved anew, then those null-sec leaders represented there are those who wish to hold the tool that carves the cake the most OR participate in holding the carving tool.

There's some null-sec leaders signatures missing however. I guess not everyone has succumbed to all the changes being inherently bad in the long run.

Any veteran of EVE is going to have his/her own story of how they endured the hard times when things were FUBAR and how they persevered. Why can't we do the same? Clench your teeth and take it like a man. Then, when it's over, go to your favourite proctologist and get a soothing ointment to spread around the hole that hurts the most.

Afraid much?

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#10 - 2014-10-11 12:53:25 UTC
Well - besides this particular topic i wonder how we as players are supposed to measure the CSM's involvement besides the official minutes published - and the last one is from 2012 ;)

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#11 - 2014-10-12 07:29:37 UTC
Sylphy wrote:
Zappity wrote:
In summary, you gave the finger to CCP by trying to take control of the agenda along with the null bloc leaders.


That was kind of the point of it.

If a cake is being carved anew, then those null-sec leaders represented there are those who wish to hold the tool that carves the cake the most OR participate in holding the carving tool.

There's some null-sec leaders signatures missing however. I guess not everyone has succumbed to all the changes being inherently bad in the long run.

Any veteran of EVE is going to have his/her own story of how they endured the hard times when things were FUBAR and how they persevered. Why can't we do the same? Clench your teeth and take it like a man. Then, when it's over, go to your favourite proctologist and get a soothing ointment to spread around the hole that hurts the most.

Afraid much?

I don't understand this post. What would I be afraid of? I don't have a problem with the letter itself although I think it ended up lacking much impact.

What I would have a problem with is CSM members making decisions designed to benefit themselves or their corp/alliance/coalition at the cost of the game or the CSM as an institution.

It appears that the CSM has built up a lot of "CCP capital" over the past few years resulting in them being taken seriously by a larger number of teams. It would be unfortunate if this was spent on something pointless, that's all.

The CSM posts above indicate that this isn't the case (thanks for posting btw) so that's good.

If the letter didn't prompt an early release of the dev blog then Greyscale should be ashamed of shunning the CSM on such an important matter.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#12 - 2014-10-12 16:08:12 UTC
The entirety of the post wasn't directed at you Zappity, but at the signatories of the accord/letter :) I just used one of your viewpoints to quote a reply.

Sorry if I wasn't actually clear which target audience I'm addressing in my reply.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.