These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Mining Barges

Author
Dia'Sarbator
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-10-07 18:37:00 UTC
After quite a bit of thought .... I really have come to the conclusion that Mining barges really are in a good spot.

There really is only 1 thing that should be changed on them. The Power grid. They don't need any more mids / lows / highs ... they just need fitting options with power grid. And they really don't need that much either. Honestly adding about 100-200 power grid to the barges would bring them in line with what they should be. The Venture / Prospect is the Frigate version of the miner. The Barges are supposed to be the cruiser versions. Give them a little love in the power grid options and everything will work it's way out. They don't need the Grid that cruisers like the gila are running but a little bump towards the cruiser class grid would help.
Dia'Sarbator
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-10-07 18:44:33 UTC
You know after looking at some of the minmatar (sp?) cruisers .... just about 100 grid would be perfect.... since there are quite a few that run as low as 300 - 350 grid.
Dia'Sarbator
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-10-07 20:16:23 UTC
could it be that no one has an objection to adding about 100 grid to the barges ?
Paranoid Loyd
#4 - 2014-10-07 20:21:29 UTC
No they don't need more grid. They are well balanced how they are.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-10-07 20:24:54 UTC
I don't personally recall having grid issues with my barges, though it's been a little while since I mined. What types of fits do you have in mind that need more grid?
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#6 - 2014-10-07 20:55:37 UTC
One problem with adding more PG to the barges is that, right now, their lower PG is the main thing preventing the Mackinaw and Hulk from being able to fit a solid tank. If you add 100 PG to either, you end up being able to stick shield extenders on them, along with several reduction mods. This would give these ships way too much tank.

If you want to mine and have a tank at the same time, use a Procurer or Skiff. The barges are all balanced, just as you said, and they have their purposes:

Procurer / Skiff - Tank
Retriever / Mackinaw - Massive ore hold
Covetor / Hulk - Best yield

Adding more PG would break the excellent balance that they currently have.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.

Dia'Sarbator
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-10-07 21:26:09 UTC
I'll play around with this on EFT but i don't think it will make as much of a difference as you guy's think. The problem with the crippling low power grid is that none of the ships can equip a cruiser class sheild boaster Or medium sheild extenders. Adding enough grid to allow them to use a Medium Sheild boaster with a fit is all that needs to be done. Their CPU is what limits their resistance mods / yeild mods. Honestly speaking the CPU is about perfect. I would have to check when i get home and play with EFT but i am willing to bet around 50 might even work ... Get them so they can equip a Medium shield boaster with a reasonable fit.

Example ...

Hulk
[3x High]
Strip Miner II
Strip Miner II
Strip Miner II
[4x Mids]
Survey Scanner II
Small Sheild Extender II
Addaptive Invuln II
Addaptive Invuln II
[2x Lows]
DCU II
Mining Yeild II
[2x Rigs]
Core Defence Field Extender II
Core Defence Field Extender II

with perfect skills and no boast that is 27k ehp. This fit is achievable right now ..

The Small Sheild Extender is a Frigate level peice of equipment Requiring 3 grid ... Even adding 25 grid would allow the equpping of a Medium sheild boaster or Medium sheild extender. (with Implant). That is the flexibility that should be allowed on a cruiser... now for you people worried about hulks running around with 2x yields in their lows you'll be glad to know they are most defiantly still paper thin. the Yeild II unit requires 10 more CPU than the DCU. That being said the hulk will either have to equip a faction mod or a resistance amp to still equip the Medium sheild extender ... the loss of the DCU drops their EHP dramatically.. and the loss of the second Invuln II brings them close to the 16-17k mark if i am guessing correctly. I need to EFT this to be sure but i think 25 grid m

I am not looking to overpower them... i am just looking to bring them a little closer to where they should be able to be at.
Dia'Sarbator
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-10-07 21:29:39 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
One problem with adding more PG to the barges is that, right now, their lower PG is the main thing preventing the Mackinaw and Hulk from being able to fit a solid tank. If you add 100 PG to either, you end up being able to stick shield extenders on them, along with several reduction mods. This would give these ships way too much tank.

If you want to mine and have a tank at the same time, use a Procurer or Skiff. The barges are all balanced, just as you said, and they have their purposes:

Procurer / Skiff - Tank
Retriever / Mackinaw - Massive ore hold
Covetor / Hulk - Best yield

Adding more PG would break the excellent balance that they currently have.


I don't think it will be as drastic as you are thinking. The CPU constraint on the Barges really balance this out. 100 grid is too much honeslty speaking but i think the 25 grid would be about perfect. give them a 100 grid and you'll start seeing large sheild extenders on them ...

The option between a Medium sheild boaster and a Medium Sheild extender (with grid implant) should be an option.
Paranoid Loyd
#9 - 2014-10-08 01:02:33 UTC
How did I know you would post a hulk fit? Roll

As Summer said, if you want a tank fly a Procurer / Skiff

Hulks have the highest yield so they get the smallest tank. That makes it balanced with the others and leaves the player meaningful choices to make.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Dia'Sarbator
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-10-08 01:39:21 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
How did I know you would post a hulk fit? Roll

As Summer said, if you want a tank fly a Procurer / Skiff

Hulks have the highest yield so they get the smallest tank. That makes it balanced with the others and leaves the player meaningful choices to make.


i posted the hulk because it's the weakest =) ... even then i am not really asking for a lot of give here ... btw i did the EFT ... and they really only need about 15 grid ...
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#11 - 2014-10-08 02:18:11 UTC
I'm home from work, now, and just dipped into PyFA to see what I could work up, and, well, even giving the Exhumers five more PG would be way too much: http://puu.sh/c3FmZ/d5f0d1bfe3.png

Adding five PG would allow the PDS II to push the PG under the 100% mark, here. Hell, switch out the PDS II for a Micro Aux I and this fit is already achievable for only a small loss to EHP and shield regen: http://puu.sh/c3FRL/2bdce79232.png

That second fit, even with the huge EM hole, still has 35.4k EHP vs. EM damage, so you aren't going to Alpha it without having several Tornadoes, either.

You can already achieve similar results with a Hulk, too: http://puu.sh/c3Gc4/dc6d60e542.png
Switch out the PDS II for a Micro Aux II and you can already achieve this fit while losing relatively little EHP: http://puu.sh/c3GmG/2ce6184693.png

On the Hulk, with 25 more PG (giving you 81.25 PG after skills, plus the PDS II's 5% PG bonus [for 85.3125 PG total]), you get something ridiculous: http://puu.sh/c3IbI/6b42b2523e.png

A look at what you can do with the Mack with an extra 25 PG: http://puu.sh/c3IF6/a29d6e4c61.png
The kicker on this one is that you don't even need the PDS II for the PG boost, it's just there for the boost to shields, shield regen, and cap. I chose to use it instead of another Shield Power Relay II as the second SPR II would cause you to dip below cap-stability.

Remember, you can get 25% more PG through skills. Macks start with 35 PG. Giving them 25 more would put them at 60 PG, allowing them to hit 75 PG at max skills. Hulks, currently beginning with 40, would achieve 81.25 PG with your buff after skills.

Now that we've gone over that, consider two more critical things:

1. Those fits are all without boosts or implants. Add in an Orca with a Shield Harmonizer, and things get even more ridiculous.
2. Those fits are all shown without overheating. Keep your tank going as you mine, and as soon as an attack starts, overheat your Invulns to achieve even more ridiculous tank for these mining ships.

Adding 25 PG to Barges would be pointless, as they don't have the slots to be able to do anything with it, anyway, while adding 25 PG to Exhumers would give them too much tank.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.

Paranoid Loyd
#12 - 2014-10-08 02:32:23 UTC
Dia'Sarbator wrote:
i posted the hulk because it's the weakest
That is the way it's supposed to be.

Dia'Sarbator wrote:
even then i am not really asking for a lot of give here ... btw i did the EFT ... and they really only need about 15 grid ...
That seemingly insignificant amount of PG would bring it back to the way it was before they changed it to the way it is now and you would see nothing but Covetors and Hulks.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#13 - 2014-10-08 02:59:23 UTC
Running a follow-up, I was just playing around with the Procurer and the Skiff, since I figured they would have the biggest difference (considering they're mean to be the tanky ships), and, well, the difference is either non-existent (for the Procurer) or almost meaningless (for the Skiff).

With the Skiff, the change is pretty minor, with +25 PG only allowing about 1k more shield EHP (from 129k total EHP to 130k total EHP) by dumping a pair of Reactor Control Unit II's in the lows and a Large F-S9 and 4x Invuln II's in the mids. Dropping one Invuln, the Large F-S9, and the pair of RCU's, and replacing them with 2x MSE II's and 2x PDS II's, and you're looking at 129k EHP with better shield regen, too boot, and it can be achieved as it currently is without the +25 PG bonus.

The Procurer isn't changed at all, as its 45 current base PG would be boosted to 70 PG, or 87.5 PG after skills. Using 2x RCU II's in the lows would give 115.72 PG, and while the Large F-S9 only needs 113 PG after skills, you wouldn't be able to actually use the Proc for mining since a Strip Miner II requires 12 PG after skills.

The Retriever and the Covetor don't have enough slots to be able to utilize the extra PG, so you're getting absolutely nothing different than you can currently get with them.

So, realistically, adding +25 PG to all Barges and Exhumers would only have any real affect on two of them (the Mack and the Hulk), in which it would be significantly over-powered.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.

Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#14 - 2014-10-10 13:03:32 UTC
There are a couple of issues with the mining barges IMHO - mostly stemming from the original tiericide changes but a couple dating back further.

The first is with the T1 -> T2: The Hulk has the same PG rating as the Covetor (last I checked) but it has more midslots, each of which will cost 1MW of PG to fill at an absolute minimum. The Skiff IIRC has a bit of a boost over the Procurer but both of the other Exhumers has to find additional fitting over the T1 hull to make use of its slots.
This issue was raised long before tiericide as well as during but...

The second is that all of the barges have the same number of slots - which seems reasonable until you consider that the Procurer/Skiff have an additional role bonus which gives them the equivalent of two additional slots, and the pre-nerf Retriever/Mackinaw an equivalent one extra (now ½ extra); fully fitted.
This leads to another imbalance - The retriever and Covetor have the same PG but the Retriever only has to fit 2 Strip Miners (10-12PG each) while the Covetor has to fit three. This means that the Retriever has 10 PG and a slot over the Covetor...
In addition the Covetor draws pretty much its entire capacitor with every strip cycle - neither of the others is even close to the alarm - because someone modified their cap according to their 3 strip equivalent yield and forgot that the Retreiver had a 33% Cap Use bonus (and the Procurer a 66% cap use bonus) in the form of having to run fewer Strips?

What we end up with then is three T1 (and three T2) ships, each of which has a specific specialisation... which actually looks more like this:

Procurer: Tank+ Tank+ Capacity+
Retriever: Tank+ Capacity+ Capacity+ Yield-
Covetor: Range+ Yield(+)*

*The slot layout, fitting and Capacitor make it difficult to make full use of the yield bonus of the Covetor...

Why does the Procurer have more than double the ore hold of the Covetor if its role is to tank?
Why does the Retriever have so much more tank than the Covetor (both fitted for tank) when tanking is the Procurer's role?


My proposed solutions to these issues?
Reduce Procurer/Skiff Ore Holds to match Covetor/Hulk.
Increase Covetor/Hulk slots by one to compensate for additional highs used for strip miners. (I'd probably suggest a mid to avoid 3MLU fits).
Reduce Retriever/Mackinaw PG output by 5 MW due to reduced Strip Miner PG usage.
Increase Covertor/Hulk PG output by 5MW due to higher strip miner usage (the combination of the two means a 10MW difference between the two base hulls (the PG usage of a T1 Strip Miner) and a 12.5MW difference with Engineering [5] (with a T2 Strip Miner drawing 12MW).
Increase Hulk & Mackinaw PG by 1MW per additional midslot over the T1 hulls.
Increase Covetor Cap Capacity... Perhaps 15%?
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#15 - 2014-10-10 14:42:21 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
I'm home from work, now, and just dipped into PyFA to see what I could work up, and, well, even giving the Exhumers five more PG would be way too much: http://puu.sh/c3FmZ/d5f0d1bfe3.png

Adding five PG would allow the PDS II to push the PG under the 100% mark, here. Hell, switch out the PDS II for a Micro Aux I and this fit is already achievable for only a small loss to EHP and shield regen: http://puu.sh/c3FRL/2bdce79232.png

That second fit, even with the huge EM hole, still has 35.4k EHP vs. EM damage, so you aren't going to Alpha it without having several Tornadoes, either.

You can already achieve similar results with a Hulk, too: http://puu.sh/c3Gc4/dc6d60e542.png
Switch out the PDS II for a Micro Aux II and you can already achieve this fit while losing relatively little EHP: http://puu.sh/c3GmG/2ce6184693.png

On the Hulk, with 25 more PG (giving you 81.25 PG after skills, plus the PDS II's 5% PG bonus [for 85.3125 PG total]), you get something ridiculous: http://puu.sh/c3IbI/6b42b2523e.png

A look at what you can do with the Mack with an extra 25 PG: http://puu.sh/c3IF6/a29d6e4c61.png
The kicker on this one is that you don't even need the PDS II for the PG boost, it's just there for the boost to shields, shield regen, and cap. I chose to use it instead of another Shield Power Relay II as the second SPR II would cause you to dip below cap-stability.

Remember, you can get 25% more PG through skills. Macks start with 35 PG. Giving them 25 more would put them at 60 PG, allowing them to hit 75 PG at max skills. Hulks, currently beginning with 40, would achieve 81.25 PG with your buff after skills.

Now that we've gone over that, consider two more critical things:

1. Those fits are all without boosts or implants. Add in an Orca with a Shield Harmonizer, and things get even more ridiculous.
2. Those fits are all shown without overheating. Keep your tank going as you mine, and as soon as an attack starts, overheat your Invulns to achieve even more ridiculous tank for these mining ships.

Adding 25 PG to Barges would be pointless, as they don't have the slots to be able to do anything with it, anyway, while adding 25 PG to Exhumers would give them too much tank.



You've gimped all those fits, they have horrible yield. The addition of one mining laser upgrade would prevent the double invulnv set up you have.