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QotD: How do you measure profitability of highsec ganking?

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#181 - 2014-10-07 07:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Veers Belvar wrote:
no tangible impact


[citation needed]

Quote:
not being done to make a profit


[citation needed]

Quote:
would at least bother to scan the ships beforehand


[citation needed]

(i.e. how do you know they don't scan the ships. That they choose to gank empties doesn't imply they don't know they're empty. Nor, incidentally, does not scanning a ship imply that you're not ganking for profit.)


You know, Veers, you might have a better time of this if you ever bothered to post evidence to support your moralizing ramblings.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#182 - 2014-10-07 08:02:58 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Since your organization has lit 400 billion Isk on fire with no tangible impact, its obviously not being done to make a profit.

Wait a second, some post ago you wrote:

Veers Belvar wrote:
People frequently come on the forums and explain that they are leaving eve because of out of control suicide ganking. It's also an extremely rational economic response to stop mining if you get ganked. It surely drives many into nullsec alliances for better protection.

If you read or listen to James' Manifesto II you should be aware that our goal is to increase the risk and restore the balance CCP destroyed in Highsec. If people leave for Nullsec because of us then everything is working as James intended and the investor of the 400bil got what they payed the money for. If they leave the game because their spaceship exploded then EVE wasn't probably for them anyway.
Our primary motive is not to make profit, but it is helpful to keep the ganking business running. Maybe one day you will understand that ISK alone is meaningless until you do something with it that results in explosions. No one cares how fat your wallet is.

Veers Belvar wrote:
If it were, you would at least bother to scan the ships beforehand and look for cargo (you already scan them for tank).

What makes you think we don't scan the cargo? And I already explained why we gank empty Freighters. If you still don't understand why that is then you probably never will, I explained it as simple and clear as I possibly can.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#183 - 2014-10-07 08:12:01 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
no tangible impact


[citation needed]

Quote:
not being done to make a profit


[citation needed]

Quote:
would at least bother to scan the ships beforehand


[citation needed]

(i.e. how do you know they don't scan the ships. That they choose to gank empties doesn't imply they don't know they're empty. Nor, incidentally, does not scanning a ship imply that you're not ganking for profit.)


You know, Veers, you might have a better time of this if you ever bothered to post evidence to support your moralizing ramblings.



Your questions have all been answered already

1. More mining than ever. Deflation. Ultra-cheap hauling. Legions of bot miners and haulers.

2. 400 billion lost. Ganking empty ships. The CODE folks themselves admitting they do it for lolz and not for isk.

3. They ship scan to see tank, I'm not sure they cargo scan. Would be kinda pointless if they gank empty ships, since they wouldn't really care anyway.

Moralizing Ramblings? Whatever dude.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#184 - 2014-10-07 08:14:35 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Since your organization has lit 400 billion Isk on fire with no tangible impact, its obviously not being done to make a profit.

Wait a second, some post ago you wrote:

Veers Belvar wrote:
People frequently come on the forums and explain that they are leaving eve because of out of control suicide ganking. It's also an extremely rational economic response to stop mining if you get ganked. It surely drives many into nullsec alliances for better protection.

If you read or listen to James' Manifesto II you should be aware that our goal is to increase the risk and restore the balance CCP destroyed in Highsec. If people leave for Nullsec because of us then everything is working as James intended and the investor of the 400bil got what they payed the money for. If they leave the game because their spaceship exploded then EVE wasn't probably for them anyway.
Our primary motive is not to make profit, but it is helpful to keep the ganking business running. Maybe one day you will understand that ISK alone is meaningless until you do something with it that results in explosions. No one cares how fat your wallet is.

Veers Belvar wrote:
If it were, you would at least bother to scan the ships beforehand and look for cargo (you already scan them for tank).

What makes you think we don't scan the cargo? And I already explained why we gank empty Freighters. If you still don't understand why that is then you probably never will, I explained it as simple and clear as I possibly can.


Going to live in a renter corp in nullsec isn't "risk" - you accomplish nothing by doing that. As for highsec, 400 billion isk later itis even worse than when you started. More mining, more bots, etc.....

How do you make a profit? the agents keep any drops? CODE only survives because of new donations...there is no business model...it is a pure loss making organization. Why would you scan cargo if you don't care and will gank anything you can?
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#185 - 2014-10-07 08:30:01 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Deflation.

lol
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#186 - 2014-10-07 11:13:15 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Going to live in a renter corp in nullsec isn't "risk" - you accomplish nothing by doing that. As for highsec, 400 billion isk later itis even worse than when you started. More mining, more bots, etc.....

How do you make a profit? the agents keep any drops? CODE only survives because of new donations...there is no business model...it is a pure loss making organization. Why would you scan cargo if you don't care and will gank anything you can?

I talked about the risk in Highsec not in Nullsec, don't distort what I wrote in order to form easier arguments against my point. It's quite dishonest. Why Nullsec sometimes appears to be safer than Highsec is an entirely different topic and had nothing to do with the points we where discussing.

I also addressed your argument with the more mining in another thread by pointing out that the overall trade volume for minerals is decreasing which strongly suggests that mining is in decline, which you then dodged too as you always do.

Honest people actually address the criticism to their arguments you just go on and fabricate some other baseless argument instead and repeat the old one in another thread or later to dodge some other criticism.

That ganking of Freighters or Barges, the way we do it is not profitable is just an assumption on your part. A wrong assumption btw. You don't have the numbers, you don't have the full picture yet you use your assumptions to create false arguments in a discussions with people who actually know the facts and that you are dead wrong. I mean seriously can you even imagine how ridiculous this looks to us?

This is my final post to you, I am seriously fed up with the way you discuss I don't think there is anything to gain in talking to you. I will block your posts from this moment on. And if you just trolled me.. well done I actually tried to have a discussion.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#187 - 2014-10-07 11:20:33 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Going to live in a renter corp in nullsec isn't "risk" - you accomplish nothing by doing that. As for highsec, 400 billion isk later itis even worse than when you started. More mining, more bots, etc.....

How do you make a profit? the agents keep any drops? CODE only survives because of new donations...there is no business model...it is a pure loss making organization. Why would you scan cargo if you don't care and will gank anything you can?

I talked about the risk in Highsec not in Nullsec, don't distort what I wrote in order to form easier arguments against my point. It's quite dishonest. Why Nullsec sometimes appears to be safer than Highsec is an entirely different topic and had nothing to do with the points we where discussing.

I also addressed your argument with the more mining in another thread by pointing out that the overall trade volume for minerals is decreasing which strongly suggests that mining is in decline, which you then dodged too as you always do.

Honest people actually address the criticism to their arguments you just go on and fabricate some other baseless argument instead and repeat the old one in another thread or later to dodge some other criticism.

That ganking of Freighters or Barges, the way we do it is not profitable is just an assumption on your part. A wrong assumption btw. You don't have the numbers, you don't have the full picture yet you use your assumptions to create false arguments in a discussions with people who actually know the facts and that you are dead wrong. I mean seriously can you even imagine how ridiculous this looks to us?

This is my final post to you, I am seriously fed up with the way you discuss I don't think there is anything to gain in talking to you. I will block your posts from this moment on. And if you just trolled me.. well done I actually tried to have a discussion.


Good luck with that. In no conceivable universe can you actually make money blowing up empty ships, when the gank ships are a meaningful fraction of the ship value. And yes, the risk of nullsec certainly matters to your claim that the risk/reward of nullsec is somehow off kilter (relative to what?). And the trade volume for minerals is irrelevent if the guys mining are the guys making the stuff too. The much more relevant metrics are those involving the cost of goods, which would be rising if good supply wasn't outpacing isk supply.

But yes, I do think further conversation with you is useless. All you do is spout the usual CODE nonsense about risk/reward in highsec, isk faucets, "carebears," and a general disdain for people who prefer PvE. Obviously as someone who mainly does PvE, and thoroughly enjoys it, I'm not terribly concerned what you or your organization think of that.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#188 - 2014-10-07 15:23:44 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
1. More mining than ever. Deflation. Ultra-cheap hauling. Legions of bot miners and haulers.


You claimed "no tangible impact." Listing a couple of specific cases does not a general statement prove.
Anyway, if you actually believed that to be the case, why have you spent a month(+?) here ranting against them?

Quote:
2. 400 billion lost. Ganking empty ships. The CODE folks themselves admitting they do it for lolz and not for isk.


And yet Code. does make a profit. Just because you don't see it or don't count it as profit doesn't change its nature. (Hint: Where did that 400 billion come from?)

Quote:
3. They ship scan to see tank, I'm not sure they cargo scan. Would be kinda pointless if they gank empty ships, since they wouldn't really care anyway.


I see, now you just don't know if they scan, where before you knew for certain that they didn't scan.

If you based your arguments on evidence rather than constantly making things up, you wouldn't have to change them so often.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2014-10-07 15:59:22 UTC
Profitability?

EVE has 2 different valuation systems that are quite evident if you look for them.

1) Profit as strictly from gains.
2) Profit from less losses than opposition.

The former is how most PvE players operate - how much do I make doing what I do?

The latter ...

http://themittani.com/news/priceless-guardian-vexor-destroyed

Quote:
The moral of this story is, Ganking pays better than carebearing your nights away.


The guy officially lost money with the kill - the valuable cargo was destroyed and his ship + fitting (concordonked) cost more - yet the evaluation being destroying high value (even just hangar fodder) was vastly more "valuable" than earning in a traditional sense.

It's a different mindset.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#190 - 2014-10-07 18:04:59 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
1. More mining than ever. Deflation. Ultra-cheap hauling. Legions of bot miners and haulers.


You claimed "no tangible impact." Listing a couple of specific cases does not a general statement prove.
Anyway, if you actually believed that to be the case, why have you spent a month(+?) here ranting against them?

Quote:
2. 400 billion lost. Ganking empty ships. The CODE folks themselves admitting they do it for lolz and not for isk.


And yet Code. does make a profit. Just because you don't see it or don't count it as profit doesn't change its nature. (Hint: Where did that 400 billion come from?)

Quote:
3. They ship scan to see tank, I'm not sure they cargo scan. Would be kinda pointless if they gank empty ships, since they wouldn't really care anyway.


I see, now you just don't know if they scan, where before you knew for certain that they didn't scan.

If you based your arguments on evidence rather than constantly making things up, you wouldn't have to change them so often.


1. CODE's stated goal was to fundamentally alter the risk/reward in highsec and compel people to move low low/null/wh to make isk (consistent with their leader James 315's stated agenda of getting rid of all L3/L4 missions, incursions, and meaningful mining in highsec). The facts clearly show that this has not occurred, and that despite CODE's massive gank investment they have failed to meaningfully change the highsec risk/reward fundamentals.

2. How does Code make a "profit?" To be clear issuing more shares is not "profit," it's just dilution of current shareholders. CODE only has 18 billion isk on hand, and minimal other assets - this does not seem like a profitable venture. From what I can tell most of their investment comes from people who delight in setting Eve on fire, and giggling at the carnage. Their largest shareholder, by far, made his money doubling isk in Jita, and got no financial benefit from CODE activities. There is no evidence that ship manufacturers are backing them (and anyway Uedama is close enough to Jita that it would need to be those active over there, where margins are paper thin). As far as loot drops, those go to the individual agents, and are not fed back into CODE. Were it a business it would now be filing for Chapter 7 liquidation.

3. Why would they scan for cargo if they are content to gank anything that moves as long as they can break the tank? The cargo literally plays no role in their gank/no gank decisions - so why bother scanning?
Trixie Lawless
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-10-07 18:53:17 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
1. More mining than ever. Deflation. Ultra-cheap hauling. Legions of bot miners and haulers.


You claimed "no tangible impact." Listing a couple of specific cases does not a general statement prove.
Anyway, if you actually believed that to be the case, why have you spent a month(+?) here ranting against them?

Quote:
2. 400 billion lost. Ganking empty ships. The CODE folks themselves admitting they do it for lolz and not for isk.


And yet Code. does make a profit. Just because you don't see it or don't count it as profit doesn't change its nature. (Hint: Where did that 400 billion come from?)

Quote:
3. They ship scan to see tank, I'm not sure they cargo scan. Would be kinda pointless if they gank empty ships, since they wouldn't really care anyway.


I see, now you just don't know if they scan, where before you knew for certain that they didn't scan.

If you based your arguments on evidence rather than constantly making things up, you wouldn't have to change them so often.


1. CODE's stated goal was to fundamentally alter the risk/reward in highsec and compel people to move low low/null/wh to make isk (consistent with their leader James 315's stated agenda of getting rid of all L3/L4 missions, incursions, and meaningful mining in highsec). The facts clearly show that this has not occurred, and that despite CODE's massive gank investment they have failed to meaningfully change the highsec risk/reward fundamentals.

2. How does Code make a "profit?" To be clear issuing more shares is not "profit," it's just dilution of current shareholders. CODE only has 18 billion isk on hand, and minimal other assets - this does not seem like a profitable venture. From what I can tell most of their investment comes from people who delight in setting Eve on fire, and giggling at the carnage. Their largest shareholder, by far, made his money doubling isk in Jita, and got no financial benefit from CODE activities. There is no evidence that ship manufacturers are backing them (and anyway Uedama is close enough to Jita that it would need to be those active over there, where margins are paper thin). As far as loot drops, those go to the individual agents, and are not fed back into CODE. Were it a business it would now be filing for Chapter 7 liquidation.

3. Why would they scan for cargo if they are content to gank anything that moves as long as they can break the tank? The cargo literally plays no role in their gank/no gank decisions - so why bother scanning?


1. If people change their route and take longer to deliver the risk vs reward has changed. They bow have greater risk and it takes longer for them to obtain their reward, cutting down on the amount of rewards they can obtain. Not difficult to see.

2. A gamers profit doesn't have to be measured in game currency. If they have enough to stay afloat and continue their operations.... I really doubt it matters.

3. If I was a ganker, and their were two target possibilities, I would scan both and gank the one that was worth more.

Come on Mr. EVE-Elite.... With your all-knowing eliteness the simple answers should have been easy for you to see.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#192 - 2014-10-07 18:57:48 UTC
Trixie Lawless wrote:


1. If people change their route and take longer to deliver the risk vs reward has changed. They bow have greater risk and it takes longer for them to obtain their reward, cutting down on the amount of rewards they can obtain. Not difficult to see.

2. A gamers profit doesn't have to be measured in game currency. If they have enough to stay afloat and continue their operations.... I really doubt it matters.

3. If I was a ganker, and their were two target possibilities, I would scan both and gank the one that was worth more.

Come on Mr. EVE-Elite.... With your all-knowing eliteness the simple answers should have been easy for you to see.


Oh Trixie....if only you would read up and analyze before posting....

1. This isn't happening. Even with CODE gankfests the risk of bot hauler fleets has actually made hauling CHEAPER. The whol CODE operation is a failure in every conceivable way.

2. The argument here was whether the CODE ganking is profitable in isk terms. I say no, other says yes. Intelligent back and forth ensued. If you actually have something to say with bearing on that, feel free. Pointing out that people may gank at a loss for other reasons (as I contend CODE is doing) is of course true, but irrelevant to the discussion.

3. There is no evidence CODE is doing this. They would always be able to find non-empty freighters in Uedama. Their only concern is apparently finding freighters that are fit with low enough ehp for them to gank.

Please try and do a bit better next time, you make this far too easy for me.
Trixie Lawless
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#193 - 2014-10-07 19:14:52 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Trixie Lawless wrote:


1. If people change their route and take longer to deliver the risk vs reward has changed. They bow have greater risk and it takes longer for them to obtain their reward, cutting down on the amount of rewards they can obtain. Not difficult to see.

2. A gamers profit doesn't have to be measured in game currency. If they have enough to stay afloat and continue their operations.... I really doubt it matters.

3. If I was a ganker, and their were two target possibilities, I would scan both and gank the one that was worth more.

Come on Mr. EVE-Elite.... With your all-knowing eliteness the simple answers should have been easy for you to see.


Oh Trixie....if only you would read up and analyze before posting....

1. This isn't happening. Even with CODE gankfests the risk of bot hauler fleets has actually made hauling CHEAPER. The whol CODE operation is a failure in every conceivable way.

2. The argument here was whether the CODE ganking is profitable in isk terms. I say no, other says yes. Intelligent back and forth ensued. If you actually have something to say with bearing on that, feel free. Pointing out that people may gank at a loss for other reasons (as I contend CODE is doing) is of course true, but irrelevant to the discussion.

3. There is no evidence CODE is doing this. They would always be able to find non-empty freighters in Uedama. Their only concern is apparently finding freighters that are fit with low enough ehp for them to gank.

Please try and do a bit better next time, you make this far too easy for me.


Who the fk cares if hauling has gotten cheaper? You claim no change in risk vs reward.... I doubt it. Maybe Red Frog or hauling organizations have become cheaper, but for the lone manufacturer or the poor bastard trying to make a few isk from hauling, having to dodge that system cuts down on the rewards they gain. Time is money.

And my point is that the whole argument over whether they make an profit in isk is worthless. Who cares if they do or not. They have enough financial backers to keep it going so your whole dive into their finances is pointless. Its just you spewibg crap because you think you are relevant when youre not.

And as for evidence? How would there be any evidence? And does it matter if there is or isn't? What makes you think you are entitled to any facts about the operations they run. Maybe they do scan and pass on the more expensive target simply because they don't like the picture of the less valuable one. Or maybe they think the name is funny and want it on a killmail. Or maybe...hell there are thousands of reasons that they could come up with on the fly to not gank the more financially viable target.

Just because you operate in some little bubble that revolves around isk/hr doesn't mean others do. It's a damn game man, not a job. Fun/hr is something a lot of us go for over isk/hr.

And BTW, you have become the most condescending ass I have found on these forums. You have no clue about the mentality of a pvp'er or ganker yet you think you have the whole thing down pat.

And as for the eliteness you claim, killing a fed navy comet with a cynabal is not elite. Actually...if you didn't kill it, I would recommend biomassing and unsubbing, that's how elite a matchup like that is.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#194 - 2014-10-07 19:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
CODE definitely does not scan mining barges but they absolutely do scan the freighters they gank. If there are two targets of opportunity they will go for the one with more cargo. They do in fact scoop the loot, evidenced by them losing a suspect freighter some months ago.

In theory CODE would make a profit off their freighter ganks, however they get a fair amount of attention so I am unsure if they actually do scoop the loot anymore. Seems risky.

They also have no problem ganking freighters of any fit type, as they can keep bumping it and get him on round 2. In fact they seem to take pleasure from going after the higher EHP ones, as a showing that no freighter is safe in EVE without a proper escort (i.e. web-warp). Your claim that they aim for low EHP freighters only is incorrect, that is simply a function of carebears fitting their ships like crap as usual.

I do agree with Veers that the main form of ganking in CODE; miner ganking; is not profitable. A T2 catalyst fit is 10mil, even at 50% drops that's 4.5mil from the Catalyst, leaving 5.5mil needed from the mining barge. Perhaps a Hulk/Coveter could provide that but even then it's just drawing even. Ganking the other classes is always a net loss after enough time.

What I find most incorrect in Veers' posts is the assumption that mineral volume is decreasing because players are using the minerals to build things, but mining itself has increased overall. You have no evidence to suggest that is the case. The evidence you have provided, "The much more relevant metrics are those involving the cost of goods, which would be rising if good supply wasn't outpacing isk supply." fails to consider that the cost of goods in EVE is much more nuanced than that. Market manipulation plays a huge role in the cost of goods, as do other isk faucets and other expenses of players. That is not to say mining is or isn't increasing in frequency, but rather to say as an RL example that the apples changing in price does not necessarily indicate in itself an increase/decrease in the cultivation of apples.

Hey guys.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#195 - 2014-10-07 19:39:32 UTC
Thread locked.

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