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New lvl 4 Toy - RS vs Kronos vs Vargur
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Maethilar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-09-30 01:26:07 UTC
I'm looking for a new toy for running my lvl 4 missions. I have all my core, support, gunnery, drones and missile skills maxed. So let's say I can fly anything.

After some experimentation with pyfa I'm thinking about this three ships:
**Rattlesnake
**Kronos
**Vargur

The Marauders are so nice, especially with the bastion module. In the other side I'm impressed with what the RS is capable, even with only T2 modules.
I don't want to pimp too much the ship, some faction damage mods and maybe one or two complex modules for tanking.
So with this 'no over-pimping' idea which of the three ships would be better?
In paper I was able to push the RS damage over the Kronos and Vargur damage, but it's on paper, in the game world what would be a better option?

Thanks.
Slymah
DorpCorp
#2 - 2014-09-30 03:18:38 UTC
I went the Vargur route. Light pimp gyros/booster.


Omni-tanked.
Blindly accept any mission. Bonus AE room? Pfftt.. lvl4 epic arc? /fart noise
No need to read up or bother with eve-survival mission reports. (except maybe for structure loot)
MJD into center of rats/bastion.
Don't worry about triggers because it doesn't matter.
Micro-manage popping rats and tractor/salvage.
Usually finish up mission at the same time as salvage.
Warp home.

Does it make you a better pilot overall? Not really no.
Could I run 4's faster in a RS/Mach? Maybe for blitzing/LP.
Would I make love with this ship if it was possible? Yep.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2014-09-30 05:34:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I personally prefer the Rattlesnake. It will not tank anywhere close to a Marauder (especially if fit for max damage and range) and it requires a bit more finesse (see: micromanagement)... but it can do an amazing job with only T2 mods and drones (and one Gecko)... it easily tops 1100+ dps (most of which is applied).

But, it comes down to what you want to do in the mission itself.

- Do you want to blitz it?

- Do you want to salvage and/or pick through the loot?

- Do you want a "margin for error" (in case you hit all the triggers or the game crashes)?

- Do you want something "cool?"

- Do you prefer "tank and gank" or "range and pick off?"

How did you Veterans start?
Slymah
DorpCorp
#4 - 2014-09-30 06:09:17 UTC
Quote:
- Do you want a "margin for error" (in case you hit all the triggers or the game crashes)?


Speaking of 'game crashes'.

I've been told that if you lose connection / crash etc. that the bastion module (if on at the time) will prevent your ship from auto-warping off after the 30s?

This might be something to think about while contemplating Marauders if this is true.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-09-30 07:34:53 UTC
If you want a toy id say Nightmare or Machariel... For coolness and crazy completion times...

The Mach is so nice after using the other lumbering BS's

No Worries
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#6 - 2014-09-30 20:57:28 UTC
Unless you are using 4 senrties (in the Mach) the Vargur completion times will be the same as the Mach.

The Vargur is the best out of those 3 choices because its nimble, tanked, and has a lot of DPS. You have room for a nano, MWD, and MJD. So most of the DPS is also applied. And EWAR immunity. You never have to change your fit for any level 4 mission.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-09-30 21:58:13 UTC
Projectiles for missions. But then I do not like missiles.

Mach or Varg depending on what you like. Vargur has a lot more cargo space so you can carry day's of ammo, plus it uses a lot less.
Maethilar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-09-30 23:03:14 UTC
What set me aside the Vargur is that I have used a Maelstrom with AC and it used ammo like there is no tomorrow, but maybe with the Vargur its better since you have less guns shooting.


- Do you want to blitz it?
No, I don't blitz. The reason? see the next question.

- Do you want to salvage and/or pick through the loot?
Yes, now I use a Noctis to salvage and loot. Basically I run two or three missions, bookmark and came later with the Noctis to salvage/loot.

- Do you want a "margin for error" (in case you hit all the triggers or the game crashes)?
Not a big concern since I've been running lvl4 for some time and more or less already know what to do in each mission.

- Do you want something "cool?"
Not mandatory, also cool is something subjective.

- Do you prefer "tank and gank" or "range and pick off?"
Doesn't matter, what really matters is time to kill everything, loot, salvage and go to next mission.
Slymah
DorpCorp
#9 - 2014-10-01 02:31:46 UTC
Based on your post go pick up a Vargur.

Swap your fittings.

Sell the noctis.

Make up the cost for the hull in a lazy week or two.

Run missions like a bandit.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2014-10-01 06:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
[Vargur, AC-Range]

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
X-Large Shield Booster II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script
Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script

Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Salvager II
Bastion Module I
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Phased Plasma L

Large Projectile Burst Aerator I
Large Projectile Collision Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

Mobile Tractor Unit x1



Tactics:
- grab aggro
- MJD out of the thick of it and then deploy the Mobile Tractor Unit
- pick off frigates first and then nuke everything else
- salvage and tractor stuff as you go
- if you start getting overwhelmed, MJD out and repeat
- don't let your drones drift too far from you... they are close range support only (where your ACs can't hit anything)

Notes:
- this is probably not the best fit, but it mirrors the kind of mission running tactics I have had the most success with
- you can modify the fit a bit to use 1400mm artillery cannons

How did you Veterans start?
Rockstede
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-10-01 08:16:19 UTC
Slymah wrote:


Speaking of 'game crashes'.

I've been told that if you lose connection / crash etc. that the bastion module (if on at the time) will prevent your ship from auto-warping off after the 30s?

This might be something to think about while contemplating Marauders if this is true.





Whether it's true or not is irrelevant. People seem to think that just because you dc your bastion mode shuts off, your tank fails and your ship explodes.

It doesn't.

I blue screened yesterday in the maze in the middle of a blitz, I logged back on to find my marauder tanking the whole thing as normal.

Sheesh

[In retrospect I'm going to update this a bit, I run a cap stable kronos. If you're using a Vargur I accept its entirely possible that you're not cap stable and therefore pulsing the booster. In which case your screwed lol]
Qui Shon
Lone Wolf Freelancers
#12 - 2014-10-01 10:33:14 UTC
As for AC Vargur vs Blaster Kronos, I recently looked into it a bit for my alt and the Vargurs semi-selectable dmg type isn't all it's cracked up to be. Kronos does more dps and has better tracking up close, Vargur has semi-selectable damage type and damage drops off slower with range.

Kronos will still outperform at closer ranges vs everything but Angels, with the advantage either growing very small or becoming a small disadvantage at around 40km. That's with two TC's for Kronos and two TC + one TE for Vargur. Triple TC Blaster Kronos pushes that tip-over point out a little further.
At 70km you'll have a somewhat significant advantage (raw dps 450 vs 590) for the AC Vargur. But then there's the options of MJD and MWD which mean you don't have to shoot at those ranges.

If you're facing a lot of enemies weak to Kin/Th, then Kronos will be better. If lots of Angels, Vargur. Vs an even mix I think Kronos is slightly ahead. For Gurista you're better off with Rails though, as not even the cruisers come up close. Blasters > Rails up to roughly 40km.


As an example, here's the applied damage for each ammo vs Drones based on the listed resistances (EM,Th, Kin, Exp)

drone": resists = [0.31, 0.38, 0.465, 0.55]
Applied dmg %
AM 0,57
Null 0,58
EMP 0,64
PP 0,61
Fusion 0,46
Hail 0,47
Barrage 0,49
MF 0,66
Conflag 0,66
Scorch 0,68
Torp 0,69


Or take Sansha, despite losing much more damage to resists, Kronos still does more effective damage at close ranges, (699 vs 640 @15km) and less at 40km (507 vs 521), that's with two TC's on Kronos vs 2xTC+TE for Vargur, same dmg mods on both. Kronos has a bit better tracking so will blap the cruisers better up close. Sometimes that matters and sometimes it doesn't.

sansha": resists = [0.29, 0.375, 0.465, 0.555]
Applied dmg %
AM 0,57
Null 0,58
EMP 0,65
PP 0,61
Fusion 0,46
Hail 0,46
Barrage 0,49
MF 0,67
Conflag 0,67
Scorch 0,70
Torp 0,71


Overall I don't think there's a large difference between the two. If you want capstable bigtank Kronos can do it much more cheaply, unless you use crystals.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#13 - 2014-10-01 13:05:49 UTC
T2 sentry Rattler with MJD is the new hotness.

Also great for murdering those pesky loot ninjas too.

Out-DPS's a Vindi, with the right setup and skills.

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#14 - 2014-10-02 15:27:37 UTC
Qui Shon wrote:
As for AC Vargur vs Blaster Kronos, I recently looked into it a bit for my alt and the Vargurs semi-selectable dmg type isn't all it's cracked up to be. Kronos does more dps and has better tracking up close, Vargur has semi-selectable damage type and damage drops off slower with range.

Kronos will still outperform at closer ranges vs everything but Angels, with the advantage either growing very small or becoming a small disadvantage at around 40km. That's with two TC's for Kronos and two TC + one TE for Vargur. Triple TC Blaster Kronos pushes that tip-over point out a little further.
At 70km you'll have a somewhat significant advantage (raw dps 450 vs 590) for the AC Vargur. But then there's the options of MJD and MWD which mean you don't have to shoot at those ranges.

If you're facing a lot of enemies weak to Kin/Th, then Kronos will be better. If lots of Angels, Vargur. Vs an even mix I think Kronos is slightly ahead. For Gurista you're better off with Rails though, as not even the cruisers come up close. Blasters > Rails up to roughly 40km.


As an example, here's the applied damage for each ammo vs Drones based on the listed resistances (EM,Th, Kin, Exp)

drone": resists = [0.31, 0.38, 0.465, 0.55]
Applied dmg %
AM 0,57
Null 0,58
EMP 0,64
PP 0,61
Fusion 0,46
Hail 0,47
Barrage 0,49
MF 0,66
Conflag 0,66
Scorch 0,68
Torp 0,69


Or take Sansha, despite losing much more damage to resists, Kronos still does more effective damage at close ranges, (699 vs 640 @15km) and less at 40km (507 vs 521), that's with two TC's on Kronos vs 2xTC+TE for Vargur, same dmg mods on both. Kronos has a bit better tracking so will blap the cruisers better up close. Sometimes that matters and sometimes it doesn't.

sansha": resists = [0.29, 0.375, 0.465, 0.555]
Applied dmg %
AM 0,57
Null 0,58
EMP 0,65
PP 0,61
Fusion 0,46
Hail 0,46
Barrage 0,49
MF 0,67
Conflag 0,67
Scorch 0,70
Torp 0,71


Overall I don't think there's a large difference between the two. If you want capstable bigtank Kronos can do it much more cheaply, unless you use crystals.


And once you consider that the Vargur goes >1km/s and the Kronos goes <150m/s you'll see mission completion times will be faster with the Vargur most of the time. Also, the difference in tracking is .094 vs .097, so no difference in shooting cruisers or frigs whatsoever.

And always remember that higher DPS is important only in regards of number of volleys required to kill a ship vs time between volleys.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Maethilar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-10-05 23:31:35 UTC
Flying a Vargur right now. Well I don't know if it is the best option, but I'm sure it's a solid and good one. Goes smooth and I can tank anything with a regular T2 large shield booster.
Qui Shon
Lone Wolf Freelancers
#16 - 2014-10-06 15:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Qui Shon
Good for you Maethilar Smile

Cipher Jones wrote:
And once you consider that the Vargur goes >1km/s and the Kronos goes <150m/s you'll see mission completion times will be faster with the Vargur most of the time. Also, the difference in tracking is .094 vs .097, so no difference in shooting cruisers or frigs whatsoever.

And always remember that higher DPS is important only in regards of number of volleys required to kill a ship vs time between volleys.



Because Kronos can't possibly fit propmods? Lol, what are you getting at?
Dunno what you're using for those tracking figures, the tracking diff between AC and Blaster is ~20%, the ships have the same bonus and same amount of slots. For my comparison I gave the Varg an extra tracking mod just because it was behind in applied dps , to make it more even.

In any case and like I already said, they're likely very close, even warp the same and align the same, in most ways close enough that any difference is more theoretical then practical.
Altair Taurus
#17 - 2014-10-06 16:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Interesting thread! While Marauders are now out of my reach I am really interested in your opinions about pirate BS for level 4 mission running. Frankly speaking Bhalagorn, Nestor and Bhargest are not mission boats at all but:

- refurbished Rattler has amazing paper DPS but what about its applied DPS divided between missiles and drones?
- Vindi is rather PvP and Incursion boat but maybe rail Vindi isn't a bad idea for missioning?
- ultrafast Machariel is great for blitzing but if completion time in "normal mode" isn't prohibitive?
- Nightmare is king of missions in Amarr space but trash in others?
Aroun Aucie
Benuke United
#18 - 2014-10-07 23:31:10 UTC
save your money get a gila Twisted
Jacob Stov
#19 - 2014-10-08 17:49:47 UTC
Quote:
save your money get a gila Twisted

Which saved money ? The difference between a Rattler and a Gila isn't that big. My Minmatar alt has a Vargur with Marauder 5 and large AC spec 5. Still doens't work for me.

The Rattler is a bit better, but overall I prefer a Nightmare in Amarr space. It looks like poo on a stick, but them Tachyons !
Altair Taurus
#20 - 2014-10-08 17:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Altair Taurus
Me? Too late. I already own Gila. However I think flying Level 4 mission in cruiser, while sometimes possible, isn't that cool. That's why now I am looking for best pirate BS to fly Level 4 missions flawlessly. More precisely I have become an EFT warrior fitting crazy stuff into Nightmare, Machariel, Vindicator and Rattlesnake hulls to find the best mission runner. Yet I am not fluent in ship's fitting so results are rather pathetic. What?
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