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Pvp armor logi
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Brylan Grey
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-10-04 02:14:12 UTC
So, I enjoy doing cruiser sized armor Logi. T1 and T2.

I am always told how superior Guardians are to Oneiros. I am wondering why.

Looking at info, a lot, A LOT of people talk about guardians having more low slots for tank... But Oneiros has the same number of lows so I think maybe that was old school.

From all my playing around with fitting tools I have found the following:

Oneiros tanks kinetic and thermal better.
Guardian tanks explosive better.
Both are equal at EM.

Guardian in a 4/2 setup is able to handle some neuting, while Oneiros cannot.
In a 4/2 set up, guardian cannot out rep an Oneiros.
In a 5/1 set up, guardian can BARELY out rep an Oneiros but sacrifices neut resistance.

In ALL Cases of equal fitting, Oneiros has more effective hit points.

Assuming logistics skill to V and all armor and cap skills to V, I homest think Oneiros a bit better, albeit very very slightly.

So, I am curious as to why is is seen as hands down guardian = win.

As a note, I am NOT trying to prove Oneiros better. I am trying to be a good Logi pilot and just want to know the best info possible at all times. I am just always told contrary to my number running. So, I want info! :-)
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#2 - 2014-10-04 04:25:41 UTC
Care to link the fits and post some stats?

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering about the fits you are using to make these conclusions.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#3 - 2014-10-04 06:02:31 UTC
As a solo ship, Oneiros is better. But it only reps/has bonus for Armor.

For chain Logi, 2 or more ships, Guardians tank better as a group. They have bonus for Armor and Cap transfer.


Shield Logi work the same way with the Scimitar (solo) and Basilisk (Chain)

I think both the Scimi and Oneiros have a bonus for remote tracking boosters, which lots of pilots love.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#4 - 2014-10-04 06:13:46 UTC
Largely the difference is in the cap chain, and how this allows you to free up mods that would have been cap for ECCM and tank for most PVP fits of basi and guardi's.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-10-04 08:37:22 UTC
Brylan Grey wrote:
Assuming logistics skill to V and all armor and cap skills to V, I homest think Oneiros a bit better, albeit very very slightly.

Better in what situation?
For example here in w-space you almost never see an Oneiros - everyone is using Guardians. Why?
Well, in w-space you are almost always faced with neuting. The Oneiros just can't handle that situation very well - both in terms of it's own cap and helping others who are getting neuted.

On the other hand the Oneiros is a very cool ship for solo logi.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#6 - 2014-10-06 08:26:07 UTC
This is actually a pretty interesting question

In Snuff we generally use Oneiros for two reasons;

MWD Logi
Heavy Buffer Logi

You can fit a very good buffer on an Oneiros while still getting decent out-going rep. However we generally prefer the Guardian for small-mid scale stuff because of its better outgoing rep, better resists and much better resilience to neuting.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#7 - 2014-10-06 08:37:17 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
Brylan Grey wrote:
Assuming logistics skill to V and all armor and cap skills to V, I homest think Oneiros a bit better, albeit very very slightly.

Better in what situation?
For example here in w-space you almost never see an Oneiros - everyone is using Guardians. Why?
Well, in w-space you are almost always faced with neuting. The Oneiros just can't handle that situation very well - both in terms of it's own cap and helping others who are getting neuted.

On the other hand the Oneiros is a very cool ship for solo logi.


Because you can set up a cap chain and create infinite cap with no risk...

In PVP people are start to move from basilisk/guardian to Scimitar/Oneiros more and more simply because logi WILL die, and once that cap chain drops... it's not a good day. Oneiros and Scimi are generally set up to be more independant for cap - e.g. they dont rely on cap transmitters.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#8 - 2014-10-06 11:52:12 UTC
The longer the engagements, the stronger the Guardian. It's ability to generate capacitor out of thin air to fuel not only their own reps, but for example a Bhaalgorn's neuts (although this isn't as necessary anymore after the racial rebalance), weighs a lot in certain fleet compositions.
However, this comes at the cost of additional hazzle for the logi pilots, as setting up functioning capchains under very stressfull situations might cause a ship of their fleet to explode.

The Oneiros is a very good ship, with an additional midslot, and suits normal logistic tasks very well. If you have a Guardian base, it never hurts to add another Oneiros.
Doesn't work vice versa, of course.

Another downside of the Guardians is the limits you face with 'unskilled' pilots that lack the Logi V. This basically forces you to downgrade all your fleet from 5-1 to a 4-2 layout, and you're down to Oneiros-Power. Augorors can counteract this, so the basic guideline for T2 logistics is kinda 'Logi V or go home!' anyways, but whatever.

I myself like the Oneiros a lot more, because it's independant - and allows for a lot more modification.

Mindflood won't serve you very well on a Guardian, neither will any cap-regen imps etc.
However, those stuff can make your Oneiros a beast when considering capacitor, coupled with a Large Capacitor Battery you're looking at incredible Neut-Resilience.

I remember going out with Exequrors in a small flock and encountering a Bhaalgorn, we managed to keep reps up under heavy neut-pressure.
The regeneration rate is amazing.





TL;DR

Fly what you want, Oneiros goes in all fleets, Guardian doesn't.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#9 - 2014-10-07 00:36:11 UTC
Oneiros is good if you actually fly you ship. Guardians are great if you're playing on 4 clients at once.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
GOTBOT
U.S. Robots and Mechanical Men
#10 - 2014-10-10 00:38:59 UTC
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2014-10-10 13:38:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Guardians require a cap chain, onis don't. So if you expect to get neuted or your fleet needs a capfeed, and your logi wing is more like 3-10 people, guards are great. Else, onis are just better cause they generate cap locally and got 4 mids (dualprop for small gang stuff, sebos for fleet fights, no cap chain to worry about)

For very large logistic wings, people not dropping logi chat in time, messing up xfers or failing to anchor up correctly (remember less sebos decrease your range significantly compared to an oni) are all issues plaguing a guard way more compared to the simpleton oneiros.

GOTBOT wrote:
AttentionMost relevant fit /Guardian Gang Fit/:

IMG► http://s26.postimg.org/nv2pmyymh/0001.jpg
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=25527038
IMG► http://s26.postimg.org/njl9a7i6h/0002.jpg
https://zkillboard.com/kill/41269277/
IMG► http://s26.postimg.org/51gwpz0eh/0003.jpg
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40970688/
...


Doesn't show a DD for the guard, pls try again.