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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
G0N3 F1SS10N
#4941 - 2014-10-03 05:23:02 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Flamespar wrote:
This is probably going to be completely lost in this thread. But might these changes create an opportunity to introduce a new kind of wormhole (maybe one that players can generate)?

The idea that it would lasts about a week, always leads to another random nullsec (or lowsec) location and allows capital ships through.

My reasoning is that this would make the geography of null a little more dynamic and prevents players from garrisoning their area of space completely and gives players reasons to scout behind enemy lines.


These already exist with a 24 hour timer.


Yep, I use them with gusto. But adding more total mass allowed to them would help tons.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
RONA Directorate
#4942 - 2014-10-03 05:23:31 UTC
I am back, just got home from work and reading this thread there for most of the day.


@CCP Greyscale

I will keep pushing you for balance! Dont make jump range a flat number, make it scale for the size of the ship 10 ly being the max for JF and rorquals and 5 ly for titans with everyone else filling up the middle.


Also, please reconsider the fatigue for black ops and what not. Don't nerf their range


My other thought is, why not change WH spawn mechanics to offer more High sec -> Null sec wormholes or vice versa. Finding a wh from high sec to null is a lot of fun because you get the right system you can ninja some great anomolies.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4943 - 2014-10-03 05:23:37 UTC
Hooray! Maybe there will be less PL and SCUM hotdropping shenanigans in low-sec after this!

Getting dropped by 10+ supercarriers from the outer reaches of null-sec because you have 5 battleships in a 20 man gang of cruisers and frigates is just bad.
DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
#4944 - 2014-10-03 05:26:23 UTC
Needmore Longcat wrote:
Is today April 1? Capitals taking gates? Jump fatigue? These are some of the worst ideas.

How is a stagnant nullsec going to be fixed by making things take even longer than they do already? How does that make any sense at all?

Absolutely terrible.

cry moar. this change is amazing.
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4945 - 2014-10-03 05:26:26 UTC
Almost at 250 pages.... not bad guys. Anybody make a script that shows how many post contain tears and how many are for the changes?
Rain6637
NulzSec
#4946 - 2014-10-03 05:30:22 UTC
Greyscale, the thought of fleeting caps on a roam, especially dreads, in K-space has been a little out of reach until now. The looming threat of the blob and my extreme dislike for Tidi has made it nothing more than a daydream.

But now you've... god this brings tears to my eyes. It's hard to imagine the mixed ships that will be in this frame not too long from now, free of Tidi, with jump routes in the top left corner of each client, but I want you to know I see them.

truly, this will be something to enjoy, and lossmails will simply be proof that I was there and had fun.

XOXO.
Seer Aaron
42 inc.
#4947 - 2014-10-03 05:32:17 UTC
I believe that you cannot combine the titans, ships-carriers and DF. DF is a logistics ship, he fights not involved, no danger, role in combat is not playing. Change DF doesn't make sense, moreover, harms the game.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#4948 - 2014-10-03 05:34:42 UTC
This may have been asked but f*** looking through 200 pages and i'm bad at searching.

Will jump fatigue be persistant between sales, so for example, if I buy a capital pilot off the character bazaar will any fatigue it had also be transferred or will it be fresh, I could find it really annoying to buy a nyx pilot to find out it has (say you cap it at a month) a months worth of fatigue or more is uncapped.

I understand there is obviously potential for this to also be abused by wealthy players but honestly is it really going to be worth 2 plexes to just get rid of your fatigue timer, considering the potential to f*** those buying characters on the forums.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4949 - 2014-10-03 05:40:00 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Jump length distance has almost no impact on travel time, number of midpoints is largely irrelevant to travel time when fatigue is a factor.

this makes no sense to me. How can number of mid points be largely irrelevant when every time you make a jump you add one plus the distance and the multiply? It would seem number of midpoints would exponentially increase travel time.

Also for the small guys with limited cyno alts jump lenght or more specifically number of jumps does significantly increase travel time as you have to reposition cyno alts. It's only the large alliances which are not affected by this.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Rain6637
NulzSec
#4950 - 2014-10-03 05:41:10 UTC
Vhaine Vhindiscar wrote:
Quote:
Mostlyharmlesss wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:

4. Lowsec cyno-jammers should be made system wide or grid wide at least. **As presumably you will get no exhaustion cynoing within the same system - lowsec will have more cap fleets cynoing within system much more regularly as part of a camp or w/e. Lowsec power projection will actually increase for the current '1 system overlords' as they warp caps to gate, jump and then cyno within the system to the fight.


** Edit: added a reason why ... Mystic Meg crystal ball opinion here but I'm normally not too far off.



4 Need to have a look at in-system jumps - I can't even remember if they're possible :/




ARE YOU ******* KIDDING ME??!?!!! HOLY **** ******* QUIT YOUR ******* JOB


Please can we get this guy off null sec. Put him to work on high sec since they seem to be ok with his work. We actually need someone out here who understands how to place this game. This guy obviously isn't it.

oh wow. nice quote limit workaround.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#4951 - 2014-10-03 05:41:12 UTC
I think these proposed changes favor the defending force too much. Their enemy is probably having to make longer jumps than they do, which means that their capitals don't gain as much jump fatigue. In the event of a brawl that doesn't go their way, the defending force will be able to evac their caps via cyno more quickly than the attacking force can.

Speaking of jump fatigue and jump cooldown, are you planning on making this information available via API? I hope you are, because otherwise it would be extremely difficult for capital fleet commanders to even plan routes for their fleet because they won't know if their pilots can use their jump drives.

I'd also suggest that limiting jump fatigue so it doesn't lead to cooldowns of longer than a day would be a good idea.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4952 - 2014-10-03 05:42:19 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
A couple of notes to all the people saying adapt or die:

First off people will adapt or die that's not really a choice it's more of a state of affairs. I think what you are completely forgetting is that adapting could mean very few people living much further than 5 LY from a system with a station and a high sec connection.

I haven't read every single post but I've scanned over more than half of this so far and my subjective opinion is as far as cap ship pilots it seems that more of the big alliances are applauding this and more of the small guys are saying it's not so good. Also combat pilots seem to be more happy with this than logistics pilots.

Sure some people will start moving stuff around with escorted industrials that will happen but most likely not at a rate to make up for all of the lost JF trips. I see no way you can increase the difficulty of moving freight around null by this much and not have it affect supply and therefore pricing. For those of you saying "yay high prices I get to make ass tons of isk" The prices will be high because the volume won't be there.

I see no way that you can have vibrant local economies without the ability to transport goods to other regions for trade. This tendency to move stuff to market hubs and then back out to the boondocks is not unique to eve nor is it new. Look at your history books. Also the Jita model is how Fed Ex and UPS operate today. They move everything to central hubs and then back out to the destinations from there.

I went to Spain a few years ago shortly after they had built this huge expressway system across the country. Towns near exits to the new express way were blowing up and booming. Then I went off those expressways and traveled the old 2 lane highways and saw towns shriveling and dying. Restaurants and gas stations boarding up and closing.

We had the same thing happen here in the states in the 50's when the Eisenhower highway system made old route 66 obsolete and it eventually just shut down.

CCP isnt' building an Eisenhower expressway system. They are tearing up route 66

And to the people saying that local economies will start supplying local pilots I am just going to predict that it does not happen that way. I'm saying for the record that barring some other unannounced changes that I am not privy to this will turn anything much more than 5 LY from a system with a high sec connection into more of a ghost town than it already is.

Destructible outposts I think will only make all of this worse.

You just can't have a lot of small gang PvP going on without supplying them ships to loose. These jump mechanics nerf hauling which will effectively nerf PvP.

There is only one real commodity in this game and that is time. I think if you want to predict how things are going to shake out in this game you need to break it down to time spent earning or building ships to time spent loosing them that ratio will tell you everything. These changes are going to mean more time spent hauling, waiting out timers and building all your own stuff and less time spent PvPing.

Two things:

A healthy local economy will most like provide the materials it can produce to its pilots (plenty of T1 ships) while the materials that cannot be procured there will either be found in highsec or in agreements with local groups. Keep in mind not every need will be met and this will create shortages on certain supplies and possible surpluses for others. Those are what should be traded. Because logistics just became harder, not impossible.

Secondly, this change definitely adds some landscape to null. right now null is just null. Only difference being the kinds of resources available and rat anoms. Not much diversity. With the changes it will also add an aspect of distance from empire. Deep null will truly be deep null. You will likely see smaller groups (not small, just smaller) residing in space near empire to satisfy needs they cannot fulfill themselves. And the generally increased traffic as power projection is reduced. Then you will have deep null with bigger more established alliances that dont have heavy dependence on empire trading. Now this obviously happen overnight, and with the current changes alone you wont see as hard of a drive to attract people out to deeper space, but the framework and possibility is there.

Aslo, this is more like ripping up the highway, not route 66
Marlenus
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
#4953 - 2014-10-03 05:43:33 UTC
Speaking as one of the tiny guys but very old, I purely love these changes. Good work CCP! Space will be VAST again. Love it.

More specifically, I've always been uninterested in cap ships because I have no interest in being part of the huge organizations, though I've had alts in several of them briefly. And here's the thing about cap ships -- from the very earliest days of them, it has been pointless for any individual or small org to deploy them, because of the certainty that a much larger blob of them would quickly land on your head. This has kept the cap ships as the toys of the very big boys. To fly them a lot, you had to be in one of the orgs that could plausibly be expected to have a huge cap/supercap blob on call.

That's all gone now. Now anybody that can field a small cap fleet can actually put those boats on the field unless there's a bigger cap blob operating somewhere nearby. And that means more and better fights. Having caps go through gates also means more and better fights -- LOTS of them. More caps will die. Cap blobs will get smaller. ISK will evaporate. Good trends all.

I don't really care about logistics. Logistics should be hard. Anybody can pioneer a route to anywhere for a blockade runner full of mods through wormhole space; it takes about four hours max with good scanning skills, if you start from your desired destination and work backward to highsec. And that's enough logistics to put anybody into the fight anywhere in the universe. More than that is luxury.

I'm sure some of these details will be tweaked. But the overall gestalt is TRIPLE WIN AWESOME.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4954 - 2014-10-03 05:44:46 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I think these proposed changes favor the defending force too much. Their enemy is probably having to make longer jumps than they do, which means that their capitals don't gain as much jump fatigue. In the event of a brawl that doesn't go their way, the defending force will be able to evac their caps via cyno more quickly than the attacking force can.

Speaking of jump fatigue and jump cooldown, are you planning on making this information available via API? I hope you are, because otherwise it would be extremely difficult for capital fleet commanders to even plan routes for their fleet because they won't know if their pilots can use their jump drives.

I'd also suggest that limiting jump fatigue so it doesn't lead to cooldowns of longer than a day would be a good idea.

I believe it is somewhat part of the intention that people attacking each other are relatively close, and suffer less from the distance drawback

I do like the idea of API for fatigue timer.

I think the current plan is to cap the fatigue at 30 and the cooldown at 3 days. If i understood it correctly.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#4955 - 2014-10-03 05:46:01 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:
Man this thread is so toxic I fear for the poor souls who wind up reading all the posts - because there are people at ccp who will read all the posts. I mean I pretty much nailed it a hundred pages ago (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5073593#post5073593) but self promotion aside, I think you deserve a great joke for making it this far!

What did Cinderella say when she got to the ball?

Ghrrghl

Badum-tish





:)

And some of us who took this thread seriously appreciate your candor. Not only that but you altered my thinking quite a bit as is reflected in my main 'idea' post :

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5073602#post5073602

I have a couple of alts in your neighborhood of the doughnut and I confess to often being bored of the routine there. If I had to pull a few hours on reaction force duty I'd be tempted to hot drop an Ibis myself.....

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4956 - 2014-10-03 05:47:14 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Jump length distance has almost no impact on travel time, number of midpoints is largely irrelevant to travel time when fatigue is a factor.

this makes no sense to me. How can number of mid points be largely irrelevant when every time you make a jump you add one plus the distance and the multiply? It would seem number of midpoints would exponentially increase travel time.

Also for the small guys with limited cyno alts jump lenght or more specifically number of jumps does significantly increase travel time as you have to reposition cyno alts. It's only the large alliances which are not affected by this.

Hes saying under current mechanics extra midpoints is almost useless. basically a couple session change timers. Fatigue would be a limiting factor on its own.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4957 - 2014-10-03 05:47:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


No, because complicated math is already too common in EVE. Sometimes it's necessary. Here, it's not.



CCP Greyscale why you hate maths so much? Did you have a mean math teacher in grade school? All joking aside what's your issue with a fairly simple equation? Like has been stated it's all going to be done behind the scenes on dotlan and out of game apps anyway. It's not like players will ever have to sit down with a pencil and paper and figure this out. If a little math makes things better just do it.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Emiko Rowna
Keys To The Stars
#4958 - 2014-10-03 05:54:25 UTC
Jaiimez Skor wrote:
This may have been asked but f*** looking through 200 pages and i'm bad at searching.

Will jump fatigue be persistant between sales, so for example, if I buy a capital pilot off the character bazaar will any fatigue it had also be transferred or will it be fresh, I could find it really annoying to buy a nyx pilot to find out it has (say you cap it at a month) a months worth of fatigue or more is uncapped.

I understand there is obviously potential for this to also be abused by wealthy players but honestly is it really going to be worth 2 plexes to just get rid of your fatigue timer, considering the potential to f*** those buying characters on the forums.


Very good question!
Nostonica
Holy order of eb.
#4959 - 2014-10-03 05:56:23 UTC
These changes are fantastic for reasons:

Low sec will see bigger ships, shiny ships and all sorts been used for small gang pvp.
Low sec may actually see mining ops.
Factional warfare's big fights have the possibility of becoming a grand battle with a large variety of ships, not just frigates destroyers and cruisers.
More ISK to be made by those that supply the deeper lowsec market basically more risk/reward.

Honestly i was a bit miffed by the changes to jump freighters at first , having moved and supplied alliance ships in the past for "burn lulm" having said that these changes are positive for the whole lowsec market/industry.

In the future:
Quality lowsec Moons and Poco's will become available to small alliances.
Local industry will spring up.
More ISK will explode! ( a battleship roam won't be considered a automatic recipe for a hotdrop).
Hot dropping will have a actual risk/reward system, I can drop on this small fleet what is my exit strategy.
Eliphal
Mare Crisium Industries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#4960 - 2014-10-03 06:00:34 UTC
So, sure this has been mentioned before already, but I think a reasonable compromise for the podjumping issue is to give out remote medbay changes at the same frequency as attribute remaps.