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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4541 - 2014-10-03 00:05:15 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Planned new feature to address new player movement:

For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, and
For all players, once a year

You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that:
- Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and
- Automatically moves you to your medical clone

Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for *any* station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status.


This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to nullsec" concern, and also gives non-nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily.



Thoughts? Pasting this into the FAQ and also trying to get it into the blog proper.

An entire year's cooldown on something that you might definitely need more often than that in a big war. Not cool IMO.

What about: if you've been stuck in a station (i.e. haven't docked anywhere else or left the system) for some number of days, perhaps 5 or 7, you have the option to move your medical clone to your highsec NPC station of origin from whence you first entered the game.


What if you, you know, actually fly where you need to go in a ship? How novel!

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#4542 - 2014-10-03 00:06:17 UTC
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4543 - 2014-10-03 00:06:27 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Are you guys high?

No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before?

You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely.

Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game?


I have to kind of agree with this guy. I'm not much of a PvPer. On my main I'm the guy that corpies ask to move stuff in and out of NPC null or Provi or low sec or where ever. There are times when I need to move my cyno alt to 3 different times just to pick up the ships I'm moving and then 3 or 4 stops in the chain to get to where they are going and then another 3 or 4 jumps to get my carrier ba.. [...] ... map and pick up a few ships then jump them deep into NPC null to the furthest back corner system that some player new to null is going to likely want to start out at and then tell me if you guys still want to make these changes. Oh and make sure you are not on company time while you are doing all this. I don't want you getting paid for it. That would change the experience.



So what you are saying is that "new" players already have carriers, well surprise: they are likely not new!
There are still so much ways to work around that and be good at logistics, one example: WH!

Did you even read what I wrote? I said I jump stuff around in my carrier for new players that can't fly one yet.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4544 - 2014-10-03 00:06:45 UTC
Talvorian Dex wrote:
Your statement is true only if demand is inelastic, but it's not. No one is forcing people to play Eve. No one is forcing players to use certain ships or fly in certain areas. When you make logistics and resupplying too difficult, you don't see increased costs, you see demand go away as people screw off and do something else.

So if folks stop playing, that only includes buyers of a service and never the sellers of a service. It couldn't possibly be that both supply and demand are elastic, that both the logistics users and providers have equal ability to react negatively to the changes, and the new equilibrium price - regardless of the new total volume moved per day - could conceivably be higher than it is today.

Got it.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4545 - 2014-10-03 00:06:56 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

Ah the blame game. Honestly, who gives a ****? We are where we are. I believe even the most bitter and angry will find themselves is a happier place once the changes happen. Sure there will be growing pains, but EVE needs this change if it hopes to return to greatness.


I was just asking about you, whether you had weighed in. I am only haldway through the threadnaught (reading everything takes time)

Glad to see you are here and happy/satisfied.

m

As long as CCP doesn't cave in to the man babies I'll be happy. There is of course a difference between bringing up concerns in regards to new players clone jump ability, which was addressed nicely, and the endless tears from those who heavily relied on death clones to teleport all over the game.

Constructive feedback is helpful. Man baby tears are not.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4546 - 2014-10-03 00:07:05 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yup, that's one of the goals. It was great for us publicity-wise, but we feel the paradigm of "no cap fights unless they're guaranteed to hit 10% TiDi" is bad for you guys.




*(emphasis added)



Stop being so Communist CCCP! thinking you know whats good for us, instead of asking us, instead of this veiled publicity stunt where the only thing really negotiable is the decay of jump fatigue.

Shesh... you know it should be manditory CCP policy that these types of feature disccussions/dev blogs should be required to have a "Heres the problem" and "Here's how we'd like to fix it" and "CSM is completely unsure we have our heads on straight - which we totally appreciate because sometimes we're in our self induced development bubble; which thank fully our loyal and dedicated community usually helps slap us back to reality... because Internet Space Ships are Serious Business."

So CCP Greyscale... How much of this discussion is truly up for change, vs. Bitter Vet Tear Collecting? Because from you responses that I am reading the only things open for iteration are the jump fatigue decay calculations (and co-opting players to debug the feature concept)?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4547 - 2014-10-03 00:07:31 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.

Been there, done that, several times. Was stressful as hell and a lot of fun.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4548 - 2014-10-03 00:08:16 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:

The ability of an APEX force to move, yes. But this nerf obliterates the ability of ANY force to move more than one subcap at a time.

Hi. There's these things called stargates. Any ship of any size can use them now, in low and null security space.

You should look into the implications of that.

P.S. Hint - this means securing your lines of communication and not relying on mass teleportation for fleet mobility.

P.P.S. Pro Tip - HTFU.

Edit: a word.


Let me ask you something. If you drive 20 miles a day to work, and suddenly you can only drive to work 1 day a week, and have to ride a scooter the rest of the days (Because of your jump fatigue), are you going to work 20 miles away? No, you're going to get a new job right next door.

When your job is running logistics for an alliance, that means the alliance is screwed completely.

Don't forget... everyone here is a player of a game. When an activity isn't fun anymore, it's not going to get done. Why - after Seagull got up and said she wanted to help the content enablers - are they destroying the ability of dedicated logistics players (supplying null alliances) to do what they do?

"But they can always take gates!" No, that only works if the chance of being ganked is 1% or so. When it's about 50% (as it would be on EVERY pipeline to null), those players will simply stop doing it.

Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com
Grave Digger Eriker
Doomheim
#4549 - 2014-10-03 00:08:36 UTC
Haven't seen it stated here yet.

However, with everyone raging about how difficult logistics will be with a hard jump limit of 5LY, how about feeling sorry for all the residents of Jita.

There are only 2 Lowsec systems Eruka and Ohkunen that are within 5LY of this trade hub so say goodbye to Jita as it won't survive as a trade hub with no only 2 perma camped lowsec jumpouts for the JF's.

Oh and Highsec T2 production/invention people good luck trying to build anything T2 as there will be no moon goo transported from Null to empire with these changes. So bye bye to your empires also.
Black Ambulance
#4550 - 2014-10-03 00:09:11 UTC
Bezdar22 wrote:
playing eve for abt 5 years now... i think its a good time to look for something else .. may be take out that cute girl next door is a good idea..
good bye EVE


Any idea for another game ? send me private message. thanks
SanDooD
Perkone
Caldari State
#4551 - 2014-10-03 00:09:24 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.


Interesting idea. Ever seen, or been part of, Burn Jita? Yeah ...
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4552 - 2014-10-03 00:10:09 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
The idea that I cannot jump for a month at a time WILL make me unsub. I do not think this is an unrealistic response from any cap pilot. Limit this to a day or two at most, otherwise I see no point in continuing to subscribe a super pilot if I literally cannot play the game absent gates. (Which is NOT acceptable for a super) I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it.

You won't be able to jump for a month because you failed to plan ahead and consider the impact of making a jump at that time after having built up so much fatigue. Getting to that point would have meant that you would have had to wait out a 3 day jump timer as it is.

If you're that careless and boneheaded, we're probably better off without you around to be frank.

Oh - and if the Failheap Challenge thread is any indication, unsubbed bittervets are coming back by the thousands solely to screw with the current lords of nullsec. I think they'll nicely balance out the income CCP will lose from your subscription.

Ta.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Aerich e'Kieron
Peace.Keepers
#4553 - 2014-10-03 00:10:11 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
The idea that I cannot jump for a month at a time WILL make me unsub. I do not think this is an unrealistic response from any cap pilot. Limit this to a day or two at most, otherwise I see no point in continuing to subscribe a super pilot if I literally cannot play the game absent gates. (Which is NOT acceptable for a super) I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it.


"We are also going to cap the maximum jump fatigue to 30 days (and therefore jump activation to 3 days)"
CCP Nullarbor on Twitter
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4554 - 2014-10-03 00:10:12 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.


The fact that you don't understand why that's not tenable long-term is the same reason why I'm not going to argue with you about it.

Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4555 - 2014-10-03 00:10:57 UTC
Adwokat Diabla wrote:
I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it.


How can you guarantee this? How can you be sure that someone who is not extremely lazy gets in their subcap, roams a few jumps, and realizes they can shoot at another fleet of subcaps without getting hotdropped from a giant force within 10 minutes of the engagement starting?

How can you guarantee that being able to PvP without worries about large incoming forces as soon as an interesting fight occurs will ruin the game and make anyone who flies a capital ship unsub?

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Ronin Silfar
Our Big Spaceship Gang
#4556 - 2014-10-03 00:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronin Silfar
Quote:
You WILL loose at least 30% of the Playerbase.


Man cannot count how many times similar statements have been made. May I please direct your attention to exhibit A:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Subscribers

Anyone who thinks these changes are being made without serious and rational forethought need to confirm that their IQ is above room temperature. Just like any other major change in EVE there will be growing pains, and iterations. No amount of QQ or subscription threats is going to change that. Instead, consider having a little faith that CCP has the health of the game and our best interests at heart. If it doesn't work out they'll fix it. If they really do make a mistake so terrible as to cause that graph to go down, then you can say "I told you so" afterward and rub it in all you want. Show some faith and have a mature conversation about the problem.

P.S. The tiny dip in that graph was Incarna. If you know anything about Incarna you know much people hated it. People still came back.
Kage S3kkou
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4557 - 2014-10-03 00:12:02 UTC
+1 For the changes.

Allot of people are looking at this rather short sightedly.
Yes there is pain, but it has allot of gain to off set that pain.

Yes CCP could just reset the board & also remove capitals, but they are choosing not to do that. They are allowing people to still have their capitals, which will still have their uses but just not in the same way as they are currently use to.
CCP are instead presenting you with a variety of choices to make and giving advanced warning so you can make them.

This only the first part of the changes to the dynamics of 0.0. People and Corps/Alliances have to re-evaluate the concept of coalitions & rental empires, because the overall changes are going to see these broken down over the course whole revamp.

So people, corps & alliances need to re-evaluate where they are living currently, compared to where they think it will be best to be living once the changes happen. Should we live in area A compared to Post changes area B, C, D or E?
Do you feel secure, given coalition breakdowns & standings resets will likely feature highly on the cards in the coming months as localised conflicts become the new normal & new ( yet to be detailed) sov mechanics get introduced?.

For all the crying & counter change proposals, its a case of the changes are going to happen ( albeit there will be some adjustments to them). So no use crying over spilt milk, TIME TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

@ CCP Greyscale

Please consider taking this opportunity and redesign/move regions around, the 0.0 map in conjunction with these changes as well as rebalancing their resources & true sec.
That would certainly shake up the current status quo in more ways than 1 & make people/corps/alliances and coalitions, have to make tough choices. :)
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#4558 - 2014-10-03 00:12:06 UTC
Misty Allure wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.


Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed?

Just because you don't understand why the design created the Eve of today, doesn't mean that it's not the root cause. Everything that exists today in nullsec is the inevitable result of how nullsec works and how people work.

And now you're pouring cement into the mix.
Well, no. See, the game is designed as we know it right now. You guys can blob at your hearts content as of today.

With the changes, and more to the point, the question being asked, Grayscale's reply is correct.
Why should CCP tell you how to adapt to the changes and play the game? Get your alliance leaders to figure that bit out for you. Shed weight if you need to, and move on. Adapt and survive, or die out is what he is saying.


Yes, but unfortunately the 'weight' that will be shed will be the playerbase as they 'move on' to other games.

We don't need the alliance leaders to work this out, the line members can see where it's going. It's going to be more 'work' and less fun. All these clever pubbies claiming Goon/NC/PL tears just cant see it, if you make the game harder for the large groups in this way you make it 5x as hard for the small groups.

Lets take an example that most are familiar with Goonswarm in Deklein vs Mordus Angels in Pure Blind.

After this patch hits MoA are going to get stomped, hard and repeatedly. There will be 1000's of Goons back in their home region because they won't want to get stranded more than 10LY away from home. They will go after the only 'content' that is available, the closest alliance that is hostile to them, the only targets they can actually attack. Goons already have a thriving market in Dek, since the industry changes they have loads of industry happening there too. They have masses of players they have local supplies and they have really nothing else to do.

MoA on the other hand have far fewer players, sod all industry and rely on importing to supply their gameplay and running missions to keep the Isk coming in. They will literally run out of ships to fight in, and situations similar to this will play out all across nullsec.

No one will be invading Goons, no one will be invading NC., if people thought their space was untouchable before then it is 5x as secure after these changes. This is a nerf that will hit the coalitions hard for sure, but it will smack the smaller groups much, much harder.

It has long been my stance that if you can't produce what you need locally, you are bound to die out eventually. This change just speeds up the process.

I honestly doubt we will have masses of players leaving Eve for X or Y. I am well aware that the CFC and friends won't be affected much, but to say they'd become untouchable is a bit of a stretch. Granted, if all your borders are blue as far as the eye can see, then you wont find yourself suddenly sacked from the back via a sneaky drop.

But at the same time, when you get hit in the face with a truck, you will be limited in what your response teams can do and the size they can muster up in short notice from across your cluster. All in all, I think this plays out well enough.
Worst case scenario, in which the CFC sucks massive ass:

They lose most of their sov, and are pushed back to a single Region. You have the entire CFC concentrated in a few systems. Nothing is going to root you out from there. When you control a small enough reggion, plus the home ground, you dictate your initial fleet size, and are able to escalate your full force within a moments notice. Attackers will have to spread thin, or wait out timers to be able to counter drop, or plan days ahead to meet you with a force in the same size.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#4559 - 2014-10-03 00:12:07 UTC
Bezdar22 wrote:
playing eve for abt 5 years now... i think its a good time to look for something else .. may be take out that cute girl next door is a good idea..
good bye EVE

Send me your stuff, eh? I'm a cute girl (too dirty to be the next-door type, though), and even though he plays EVE, my boyfriend doesn't give me anything (and as often as not, my industry is funding his PvP).

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Viceversa
Cancer Therapy
Ginnungagap
#4560 - 2014-10-03 00:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Viceversa
What is the pupose of this design?

Wasn't CCP purpose to people live in deep 0.0?
or just have changed CCP's mind and let them live high sec or low sec near by nulls only?

As CCP Grayscale told people have built T2 ships before JF existed, however the jump range of carrier was not like 5ly,
And we didn't use frieghters to haul all of those materials through gates in 0.0.