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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
J A Aloysiusz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4301 - 2014-10-02 21:37:35 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The JF ragne nerf is the ONLY good part on all this. Will make supply routes be PIRATED again.
Not really sure about that.

Competent logistic (transport) pilots tend to be very careful. Most of the time, I think they'll just take the longer (time) but zero-risk option.

Meaning that ultimately, we will be able to pirate just the usual morons. Not that much content, at the end of the day.


OTOH, supplies taking longer will likely mean that everybody in the game - no matter where they live - will have less ships to play with. That doesn't seem like a good trade-off to me.

I'd much rather have easier supply lines for 'combat' PVPers (combat ship vs. combat ship) than a few more JF kills for 'pirate' PVPers (combat ship vs. transport ship).


The correct change to allow JFs to be pirated would be not letting capitals dock immediately when cynoing in, and/or not letting capitals jump while invulnerable.
Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4302 - 2014-10-02 21:37:58 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


The point is to find a way to curb power projection. I agree with that. What I'm saying, and which you completely missed, is that the currently suggested mechanic is excessive for the purpose of curbing power projection.


I geniunely wonder, why is it excessive? Because it wouldn't allow large null-sec entities to hold (and protect) as much space as they do currently?
And if the jump fatigue mechanic is indeed excessive as you suggest, nothing stops CCP from tuning it down in the future.
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#4303 - 2014-10-02 21:38:08 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Another 40 posts, and this will be the highest replied to topic in this entire set of forums. The only other one was the Reasonable Things megathread awhile back with 4,282 replies.


I still think the biggest ever was the T20 thread... back in the old forums... can anyone find out?


You are correct, there were actually two threads. I only went through the current forums, not the old ones,:
5096 - T20 - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=526462&page=170
3156 - T20 response - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=473335&page=106

Some other important ones.
4304 - speed nerf - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831524&page=144
3552 - dominion sov - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=119
3276 - fighter bombers - http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=618279&page=110

e: So we are now past the last major implementation threadnaught, the speed nerf, which was huge. Congrats. We'll see if CCP considers anything, or just blindly implements stuff as they usually do, promising to 'fix it' later. Like the Dominion Sov system.


Reading the speed Nerf forums are a treat! In 2008 there were several "Eve is now dead" posts. Things never change
Dalia Rensini
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#4304 - 2014-10-02 21:39:38 UTC
RasTrent wrote:
in before plex for fatigue reduction.


Lol I like your thinking, CCP - this above is a true entrepreneur, your revenue development team should have thought of this in before this post.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#4305 - 2014-10-02 21:39:40 UTC
Roman Lynch wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
Roman Lynch wrote:
All I have heard about so far is how nobody will be able to use there supers or caps any more.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT AT ALL! blah blah blah you are going to have to wait! Else.... blah blah blah !

blah blah blah YOU ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT! blah blah blah !

blah blah blah


That's a great idea! EVE Online: Pheobe - The Waiting Game

Sounds like a lot of fun to me!



funny how you took out the parts after that. The ones that said "OR USE THE GATES!"

Fox news is hiring....

You could replace the last with "OR USE THE SELF DESTRUCT BUTTON" and, in a lot of cases, it would be just as accurate.

Yes, you can have scouts. Yes, you can have escorts. But, you can't have these things all the time (Unless you're telling me to buy another account, in which case, #$%& you as there's too much of that BS in the game already; if CCP wants to require multiple alts to play the game, then that's what the base subscription should cover)

So that means the default is waiting someplace safe for your fatigue to go down. And when you're piloting a 7-billion ISK ship with no defensive capabilities and several billion more ISK in the hull, that's still a competitive proposition even when you have a proper escort set up.
LiKuei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4306 - 2014-10-02 21:39:42 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
I love this change. It reminds me of Battlestar Gallactica when they're being chased by the Cylons after every jump. That crew was fatigued after so many jumps. It wore them down. I love that's what will take place here.

I just wish it affected your performance in combat if you have a fatigue timer still active, no matyer what ship you're in.


THIS THIS THIS X 1000. If you jump, you are making a 100% commitment to the fight.
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4307 - 2014-10-02 21:40:02 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


The thing is that the logistics guys really bust their butts. They may make several trips of multiple jumps a day. Now even if you have to wait 3 minutes between jumps to clear fatigue it is entirely possible that you are adding a significant amount of time to this work....to get more poeple out in empty regions of space? Really its all because of jump freighters? Please.


It seems like there should be some way to stop the heavy load on logistics pilots... like.... if you could just.... BUILD the stuff you want IN NULL instead of lie... buying it from Jita.

CCP should look into this as a potential "work around"
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4308 - 2014-10-02 21:40:04 UTC
Demonfist wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
e: So we are now past the last major implementation threadnaught, the speed nerf, which was huge. Congrats. We'll see if CCP considers anything, or just blindly implements stuff as they usually do, promising to 'fix it' later. Like the Dominion Sov system.

Except that "later" is in the pipe now.


Yeah, POS improvements have been in the pipe for 4 years. How's that coming? Oh, nothing?
Nalha Saldana
The Vomit Comets
#4309 - 2014-10-02 21:40:06 UTC
Oh wow did the JF calculations now, they can pretty much ignore Fatigue, they only have to worry about the shorter range.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PGt-QAhdRK3ndkpxkL5CVf5tegcrW0OoKSqKLCz0Y8w/edit#gid=1961151283
Rodney ThePlonker
IT'S HAPPENING.
#4310 - 2014-10-02 21:40:12 UTC
EVEN BATTLESTAR GALACTICA HAD A SPOOL TIME OF 33MIN!
TimeDrawsNigh
Consensual Entry
Kansas City Shuffle.
#4311 - 2014-10-02 21:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: TimeDrawsNigh
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).

Edit #2: We've updated the Formula to include a proposed Black Ops Modifier (pretty much gets CCPs Jump Freighter and Rorqual 90% Modifier). You can view this on the Google Docs Spreadsheet listed above or by clicking the below link to the updated formula for Black Ops.
http://i.imgur.com/GdLdM3R.png

"Darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#4312 - 2014-10-02 21:40:57 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:

I agree it gimps JFs, but if you wait 15 minutes between jumps then you don't accumulate fatigue. Not the end of the world and the trade off is worth it IMO.

This is assuming that you gain 1.5 fatigue per jump. I would quote me with those numbers. I'm not the best with math.


Don't forget the 5LY range nerf. A 3 jumproute is now 6, which is 3 hours round trip by your numbers.

How is that worth it?

RIP blackfrog


Oh noes, black frog, unemployment is going up, the economy is going to crash, children will be starving, people will lose their houses.

Cry moar.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2i0rrl/death_to_all_whining_nullbears/
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4313 - 2014-10-02 21:41:18 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Just want to make it clear that this gives the current blocks an easy 'I win' button as people will have to be organized with lots of allies to stand against an invasion. And the current blocks are organized already. It slows the game down, makes it tougher to get huge fights, and leads to pointless difficulties to newbies and logi people alike.

Any small group that thinks this will help them might want to look closer if you think this will stop people from taking gates to kill you.

Just want to make it clear the above post is called 'fear mongering' and should be laughed at.


Hey, the change is good for goons, I just think it is bad for the game.


by good for goons how? cuss you guys are going to have a billion JF alts for an empire that due to fatigue you cant defend?


No because Goons don't rely on caps as much as other alliances/coalitions do. Goons would love to have slug fests using battleships and other sub caps.

And lastly you VASTLY over-state the number of JFs alts needed. Each first jump will impose a max fatigue just 0.6 and after about 6 minutes it will be gone entirely. The second jump will simple boost the fatigue to 1.2. Waiting 3 minutes will bring it back down under 1.

So on just a single logistics route no more than 10 alts will likely be needed. Make that activity something that helps in terms of "participation" and people may actually volunteer for it. Moving JF alts around via ceptors is also viable.

So, why don't you grow up? Roll
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#4314 - 2014-10-02 21:42:28 UTC
Degalo wrote:
And if you only have ~2 hours a day to play a game, then that will take 2-3 days to make a one-way trip.

The times are too long for a game. Period.

This will push people toward subcaps using gates to travel, but will they have the time when FCs are unwilling to uses JBs/titans to cut some distance off.

CCP also decided to slow down many ships warp speeds, so travel takes longer.

Even the adjustment is absolutely ********: 3 days to make a jump should never have been on the table.

Max cooldown: 24 hours. Max fatigue: 3 days. Far more reasonable, and allows people to actually have a life outside this game.



Well, unless we're talking about an smartphone game, then these huge delays are totally reasonable, just pay 2.99 and reduce the cooldown!

There we go, capitals are no longer a physical item in-game, they are changed into a Facebook/Smartphone game, you buy access with ISK and then you instruct your titan to move from System A > B, and you have to update your game daily to keep it moving.
Mc Cormeg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4315 - 2014-10-02 21:42:39 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:

I agree it gimps JFs, but if you wait 15 minutes between jumps then you don't accumulate fatigue. Not the end of the world and the trade off is worth it IMO.

This is assuming that you gain 1.5 fatigue per jump. I would quote me with those numbers. I'm not the best with math.


As i understand you only have to wait 1 minute per ly you had traveled with your last jump because if your current jump fatigue is below 1 and that's the case you want to have, you only gain a fix 1+ly for the next one.
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4316 - 2014-10-02 21:42:44 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Roman Lynch wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
Roman Lynch wrote:
All I have heard about so far is how nobody will be able to use there supers or caps any more.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT AT ALL! blah blah blah you are going to have to wait! Else.... blah blah blah !

blah blah blah YOU ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT! blah blah blah !

blah blah blah


That's a great idea! EVE Online: Pheobe - The Waiting Game

Sounds like a lot of fun to me!



funny how you took out the parts after that. The ones that said "OR USE THE GATES!"

Fox news is hiring....

You could replace the last with "OR USE THE SELF DESTRUCT BUTTON" and, in a lot of cases, it would be just as accurate.

Yes, you can have scouts. Yes, you can have escorts. But, you can't have these things all the time (Unless you're telling me to buy another account, in which case, #$%& you as there's too much of that BS in the game already; if CCP wants to require multiple alts to play the game, then that's what the base subscription should cover)

So that means the default is waiting someplace safe for your fatigue to go down. And when you're piloting a 7-billion ISK ship with no defensive capabilities and several billion more ISK in the hull, that's still a competitive proposition even when you have a proper escort set up.



I think that is kinda the point.
And if you are going to use the gates... why not do it in a Charon and NOT a Rhea?

My point is... you will adapt
Kun'ii Zenya
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#4317 - 2014-10-02 21:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
Sheeana Harb wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


The point is to find a way to curb power projection. I agree with that. What I'm saying, and which you completely missed, is that the currently suggested mechanic is excessive for the purpose of curbing power projection.


I geniunely wonder, why is it excessive? Because it wouldn't allow large null-sec entities to hold (and protect) as much space as they do currently?
And if the jump fatigue mechanic is indeed excessive as you suggest, nothing stops CCP from tuning it down in the future.


Nobody has shown that the proposal will prevent entities from defending their space.

These constraints apply to EVERYONE who wants to use a capital....defenders AND ATTACKERS.

Attackers will likely have farther to travel. Unless they deploy nearby (and thus advertise their intent and give the defenders time to deploy/shift assets) they'll likely suffer even greater fatigue.

So yes, defending becomes harder...but attacking does not become easier.

Christ, can't believe I had to explain such an obvious problem with this in terms of breaking up the current power blocks.Roll
Erufen Rito
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4318 - 2014-10-02 21:44:39 UTC
Rodney ThePlonker wrote:
EVEN BATTLESTAR GALACTICA HAD A SPOOL TIME OF 33MIN!

Jesus feature, right here. Someone, get this packaged and delivered to Star Trek Online!

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165

Heat-seeking Moisture Missile
Deep Thought Labs
#4319 - 2014-10-02 21:44:42 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Oh wow did the JF calculations now, they can pretty much ignore Fatigue, they only have to worry about the shorter range.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PGt-QAhdRK3ndkpxkL5CVf5tegcrW0OoKSqKLCz0Y8w/edit#gid=1961151283


confirming eve is spreadsheets in space

Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4320 - 2014-10-02 21:45:00 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Oh wow did the JF calculations now, they can pretty much ignore Fatigue, they only have to worry about the shorter range.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PGt-QAhdRK3ndkpxkL5CVf5tegcrW0OoKSqKLCz0Y8w/edit#gid=1961151283


Personally I'm not a fan of shorter range for Jump Freighters. They are necessary for null-sec industry as a whole as well needed for smaller entities to emerge once the space becomes 'larger'. Some areas of null pretty much require outside material support and the easier it is for anyone to get those materials in (from e.g. Jita) the bigger change for smaller alliances/corporations to live there.