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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3541 - 2014-10-02 16:35:10 UTC
Ashlore wrote:
Will be fun to change corp.
Moving from 1 side of eve to another.
When will you be here? Oh within the next month or so. all depending on fatigue....

If caps not are going trou JB why add fatigue to that as well?



People might actually buy and sell carriers instead of owning the same one for 6 years. Shocked

I think beefing up the production and self-sustainability of far reaching areas is next. It pretty much has to be. Which is good.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Varun Arthie
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#3542 - 2014-10-02 16:35:15 UTC
Can I have all my capital related skill points refunded now I won't be needing them?

Jump Drive Calibration V is completely pointless to spend 4-5 weeks training for if the increase in jump range is as insignificant as it will be.
While I understodd that capitals needed a nerf, having seen firt hand the power of 200+ slow cats and 50+ super carriers jumping on a target. The 66% reduction in jump range for a Carrier is overly harsh. Infact the very long jump range was a small perk of such a s ship, considering the time spent to fuel it, plan jumps and expect that any given moment you were out of station you could die (about 1000x more likely then in a sub cap).

The current mechancs for jump fatigue mean that jump/bridge ranges can be scaled rather easily and still allow for fatigue to build up rather quickly.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#3543 - 2014-10-02 16:35:32 UTC
Murauke wrote:
Changing the Cyno mechanic changes force projection. punishing people for jumping ships isn't the way forward.


I'd go so far as to say that 'punishing' people is never the answer.

Trying to throw road blocks up in front of gamers just encourages them to find ways to break through (or over, or under, or around) those road blocks. Time and time again CCP has tried this and time and time again it failed. What works is TOOLS, more tools for people to figure out new and novel ways to accomplish desired goals.

I'm sure some of us will continue to repeat our warnings to CCP: What they are doing right now will backfire and make the groups you want to knock down even stronger than before (hashtag ObiWanGotStruckDown).
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3544 - 2014-10-02 16:36:07 UTC
This is REAL easy to fix.....

IF you LIKE the new changes, join an alliance that is FOR them.

IF you HATE the new changes... quit.

IF you are UNSURE about the changes... run missions until you make up your mind
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#3545 - 2014-10-02 16:36:26 UTC
Is activating the jump drive while in gate cloak being considered? That would make gate camps somewhat manageable when moving capitals.

Have you considered that tying jump fatigue to pilots means that switching pilots every two jumps lets people do exactly what they do now, but with more alts by jumping out of the ship and letting an alt in? If all this is going to do is give more advantages to people with a dozen accounts, it needs to be rethought. I'd suggest that rapidly moving pilots isn't the problem at all, it's rapidly moving hulls. Put jump fatigue on the hull and (technical necessity since no data is stored on packaged ships) prevent repackaging a ship with non-zero jump fatigue.
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3546 - 2014-10-02 16:36:29 UTC
Shaylas wrote:
To say it my Way: NO!

You WILL loose at least 30% of the Playerbase.

It's spelled lose...

Loose describes my shoes, my sister and my bowels...

And that's crap. I'll only believe people will leave if they biomass with all their ISK and gear.

Otherwise it's nothing more than a whiny temper tantrum where they will return when they realize WOW and Tetris are no fun...
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3547 - 2014-10-02 16:37:13 UTC
Isha Subula wrote:
Sally Hermoine wrote:
CCp i implore you to remove the restriction on Jump freighter range , this is not a whine post but listen to the clever arguments against it there is no justification for removing nullsec logistics. If you have ever lived in nullsec and took part in freighting ops you would know what it means to do this. We NEED high sec access to survive , I can handle trying to defend our own turf and will give it up gladly too but being cut off from eves market will make it impossible to exist out here. Don't listen to the high sec ppl egging you on they have no idea what it means to keep a market in nullsec well stocked with all the modules/guns/ammo neccessary just to survive.

And then we are expected to earn isk? Not possible anymore no where to sell goods noway to move it , minerals are dying in price and will only get worse, for high sec also as noone will buy caps off the market now. They will be just be made locally (which i dont mind too) but the market is gonna go way down, also losing lots of subscribers will just make matters worse. So yeah im not happy :(



and having industrialists in null is a bad thing? Being able to move large quantities of ships, mods whatever from high to null is a part of the problem. Now null pvp'ers will have to stop treating miners like crap and actually accept that they need them to survive.
Maybe, but not having relatively easy access to a mega-market like Jita, where CFC, Provi, Hero and PL can even trade among eachother with total anonimity, not to mention trade with all the highsec industrialists, will CERTAINLY make LESS ships available to everybody in the game (not only those living in null).

How is this a good thing?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Dalia Rensini
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3548 - 2014-10-02 16:37:37 UTC
@ CCP Greyscale

lock the thread and go and have a beer!
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3549 - 2014-10-02 16:38:17 UTC
Hey CCP Greyscale

The jump range change is overkill and drastic, I suggest implementing in a jump fatigue only system to carriers dreadnaughts titans and supercarriers to see the outcome. No other changes, just attempt to limit capital force projection by jump fatigue. Baby steps, this likely alone could solve the problem, stop overthinking and overkilling it.

Also I still don't like jump fatigue affecting carriers because it breaks the ability to be used as a ferry for ships, do carriers abilities to move ships around really need to be nerfed? Carriers for the for the last 2 years have been in need of a balance. Rather than taking the proper steps and splitting the carrier class into a combat ship and a logistical ship, not both. Alternatively the current carrier class could be left as is and a new class of carrier that is solely for ferrying ships could be introduced.
Eigenvalue
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#3550 - 2014-10-02 16:39:02 UTC
Isha Subula wrote:
Sally Hermoine wrote:
CCp i implore you to remove the restriction on Jump freighter range , this is not a whine post but listen to the clever arguments against it there is no justification for removing nullsec logistics. If you have ever lived in nullsec and took part in freighting ops you would know what it means to do this. We NEED high sec access to survive , I can handle trying to defend our own turf and will give it up gladly too but being cut off from eves market will make it impossible to exist out here. Don't listen to the high sec ppl egging you on they have no idea what it means to keep a market in nullsec well stocked with all the modules/guns/ammo neccessary just to survive.

And then we are expected to earn isk? Not possible anymore no where to sell goods noway to move it , minerals are dying in price and will only get worse, for high sec also as noone will buy caps off the market now. They will be just be made locally (which i dont mind too) but the market is gonna go way down, also losing lots of subscribers will just make matters worse. So yeah im not happy :(



and having industrialists in null is a bad thing? Being able to move large quantities of ships, mods whatever from high to null is a part of the problem. Now null pvp'ers will have to stop treating miners like crap and actually accept that they need them to survive.


Won't work because small entities can't produce enough themselves to sustain their operations (you're really going to be inventing and building every single module in your doctrine yourself?) and large entities will have the logistics in place to import and export.

The primary reason for Jita existing isn't necessarily the pricing. It's the liquidity and availability. That isn't going to change one iota because most of the time in Jita shipping is already spent moving through highsec to Jita, even with these changes.

What it will do, however, is drive up the cost of import and export to nullsec inflating prices dramatically. Because of that some very commonly used hulls and modules *might* be produced locally, but I'm not sure if the time, risk, and investment disincentive to null production on a large scale is sufficient to compensate for the time disincentive JF logistics nerfing is creating.

Essentially the long term implication of this will be null powers will just center around the closest to highsec system (by JF route) in their region and the rest of the region will be completely empty.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3551 - 2014-10-02 16:39:39 UTC
Ilaister wrote:
http://imgur.com/m64JSTN

ikr

Ilaister wrote:
The only reason someone would want to live that far from anywhere useful is to rat quietly in peace.

Are you kidding me?
With cynojammer nerfed and big daddy too slow to save them - I can evict ratters easier than ever. And most probably, I will. But I dont understand why is it good for game design, if we end up with less ppl in null?
Mrbluto
An My
#3552 - 2014-10-02 16:39:41 UTC
As with every change in Eve there are a number of people who will always shout. moan . grumble etc.

You can bet your isk that the tactical people in CFC, PL and others are already working on the problems this will cause and will have solutions ready to go on the day of the change.

The 5LY limit is a good thing, there will be more changes to Null and Sov to come, this is just the start.

What makes Eve such a great game is us, the players we will always find ways to take the things CCP gives us and turn then to our advantage.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3553 - 2014-10-02 16:39:50 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Is activating the jump drive while in gate cloak being considered? That would make gate camps somewhat manageable when moving capitals.
I thought you could already do this (jump while in gate cloak)?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3554 - 2014-10-02 16:39:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murauke wrote:
Changing the Cyno mechanic changes force projection. punishing people for jumping ships isn't the way forward.


I'd go so far as to say that 'punishing' people is never the answer.

Trying to throw road blocks up in front of gamers just encourages them to find ways to break through (or over, or under, or around) those road blocks. Time and time again CCP has tried this and time and time again it failed. What works is TOOLS, more tools for people to figure out new and novel ways to accomplish desired goals.

I'm sure some of us will continue to repeat our warnings to CCP: What they are doing right now will backfire and make the groups you want to knock down even stronger than before (hashtag ObiWanGotStruckDown).


CCP doesn't want to knock anyone down. This doesn't have anything to do with punishment.

The melodrama is hilarious. This is easily top 5 best threads ever.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3555 - 2014-10-02 16:41:04 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The Ironfist wrote:
CCP Greyscale Do you guys have someone asking the question "is this fun?" during the development process? Just how much time do you think people are willing to spend on a game that is not fun at all. Right now logistics from deep null-sec to empire spaces takes about half an hour. After this change it will be around 7 hours do you really think people are willing to spend that amount of time on a game for literally no progress or reward?

I'm sure this is just a first draft but seriously ask the question is this fun? Will this be fun gameplay? I look forward to your reply.


We ask "is this going to add net positive value to the overall game experience for a sufficient number of players to justify its downsides".


How does the JF nerf add a 'overall positive experience' to the game?



Obviously he is not talkign about the JF pilot. He is talking about small gangs HUNTIGN the JF that will make need of escorts and create small scale fight.

The nerf to JF is the ONLY part that is good on all this nerfing. And in fact should be LARGER. JF destroyed one of the most fun ops that ever existed in 0.0

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#3556 - 2014-10-02 16:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Oh, you think HTFU is your ally, but you merely adopted hardship. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see sov until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding! The shadows betray you, because they belong to me. I will show you where I have made my home, whilst preparing to bring justice. Then, I will break you. Your precious armoury, gratefully accepted. We will need it. Ah yes, I was wondering what would break first. Your spirit, or your body.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3557 - 2014-10-02 16:41:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Rutger Centemus wrote:
Lemme guess - you expect people to web supers into warp...?


I expect people to get an escort.


This is the one day I agreed and liked a Greyscale post Shocked. The universe as we know it is shortly coming to an end!

You know what, I am *almost* getting motivated to join my PvP corp again.

Back at the time, escorting 6-7 freighters with 50/70 ships through low and null was one of the biggest pew pew catalysts EVER.

Might make blobbers shiver but small and medium scale PvP could reborn! Finally!!!!
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#3558 - 2014-10-02 16:41:35 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
How do you think they think it's going to work out?

I was hoping it wasn't "Carriers Online." If they're saying 3 minutes-per-LY, and yet we're getting cap ships that can take gates with 10s align times and potentially over 6-AU warp speeds, then there's a disconnect there.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#3559 - 2014-10-02 16:41:59 UTC
The Ironfist wrote:
CCP Greyscale Do you guys have someone asking the question "is this fun?" during the development process? Just how much time do you think people are willing to spend on a game that is not fun at all. Right now logistics from deep null-sec to empire spaces takes about half an hour. After this change it will be around 7 hours do you really think people are willing to spend that amount of time on a game for literally no progress or reward?

I'm sure this is just a first draft but seriously ask the question is this fun? Will this be fun gameplay? I look forward to your reply.



Is this fun?? Heck yeah (in the words of my golden retriever) This is the best day ever (wag wag wag). Now did they ask "Is this fun for Ironfist?" it's pretty obvious by your post that this change is not custom crafted for your personal view of eve enjoyment. So, let's be fair and let my 'best day ever' cancel out your 'this sux' and call it balanced.

I'm thinking they are banking on people NOT being willing to spend all that time making no progress. I think they are also banking on the average eve player being average and adapting. I think they are also banking on that adaptation NOT ending with a big blue donut.

If you see this as you being personally kicked in the junk for the greater good of the game, then please sit down, relax and the pain will subside. In a few days or weeks you'll be able to get up and walk around in the new normal. If you don't like it, feel free to adapt. It probably won't be as a part of team Supercap Win.
Moatie
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#3560 - 2014-10-02 16:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Moatie
We've performed our JF calculations for routes to high sec from our space. There are zero station routes. Jumping a JF into a non-station system is suicide because 1). JF arrives in system needing cap plus fatigue 2) JF sits in system recovering cap and fatigue 3) Said JF has no cloak, long cap recharge time. You will lose that JF quickly. A move to 8 ly jump distance for JF's will alleviate much of the problem, while still highly restricting access to markets and mobility of pvp assets to trouble areas.

Bottom line, many sectors of null-sec will be without access to markets. Large alliances will set up JB networks and POS structures to create interior lines of moving freight with multiple pilots. It's the smaller deep null corps that will not be able to gain access to markets. Therefore, this change will inherently move all small corps out of deep null. You cannot defend and thrive in deep null sec without access to markets.

I do like radical changes in Eve - it keeps the game interesting. However, reviewing the proposed JF range of 5 Ly, it is highly problematic relative to the goal of getting more smaller corps and involvement in null sec.