These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Roman Lynch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3281 - 2014-10-02 14:19:00 UTC
Ok, so after thinking about it some more... I have to say. I like it.

You want SOV? EARN IT.
You want to move things... do it the hard way, in a Charon with gates.... your nano Naglfars protecting you on the way.
You want new ships... BUILD THEM YOURSELF
You want to win the game... Keep your space longer than everybody else

The old meta "Can I bring my Drake?"
The NEW meta "Can I bring my Moros?"

Use PI to make fuel for your POS'
Use Moon Goo to make your t2 hulls
fight for your right to mine.
Carebears become useful in null sec.
No more hot dropping a 5 man BC gang
Don't move all your eggs into one basket, if your caps are 10 jumps away from one side of the space you own... your gonna have a bad time.

+1 CCP.
Just tweek JF's a bit, and make a new capital ship for moving rigged ships... name it " dýrmætur tár " and let's move on.
Samuel Sachs
#3282 - 2014-10-02 14:19:16 UTC
When the changes are introduced then EvE is death....

SheetMon_V2 a gdocs spreadsheet what pulls lots of stuff, feel free to make a copy :-)

Eigenvalue
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#3283 - 2014-10-02 14:19:43 UTC
Alex Logan wrote:
Dear CCP
Remember that it is us, 5+ year characters, that make for most of your monthly subs and implicitly, salaries.


I'm not sure I would put it this way because it may not be true. What is true, however, is that we are the stable baseline revenue for CCP - we've been subscribed for years and years and *IF THEY DID NOTHING AT ALL* to eve we would *STILL* be subscribed in 5 years from now. Burning us is burning the cash cow and extremely risky.

On the revenues front, it seems like they are trying to avoid mega 3rd party melt down battles like B-R by nerfing force projection. However the news stories of hundreds of thousands of dollars melting down generated a huge subscriber jump and awareness of the game. I had people who had no interest in gaming asking me about EVE and were surprised to learn I played it. It was priceless marketing material that was entirely free for CCP.

Why on earth would they want to reduce such things? They should be encouraging more massive space battles!

But they seem to be rudderless with regards to marketing. The 6 week release cycle kills their semi annual marketing opportunities. I get the technology project planning strategy, but from a marketing point of view there's no big episodic "thing" to focus resources on.

CCP has never been very smart about marketing this game, but they've recently gotten a whole heck of a lot dumber, and it's probably because the engineers are running the show now. Just like accountants and marketing shouldn't be running the show, engineering shouldn't either. It should be run by all the functions responsible for a successful business.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#3284 - 2014-10-02 14:19:50 UTC
Crysantos Callahan wrote:

Are there any plans to create more NPC space to create more space to attack sov holders and as some kind of evacuation point for the defenders?


Thukker space could use some love IMO.
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3285 - 2014-10-02 14:19:52 UTC
I'm sorry but some of these go too far.

I seem to recall CCP Seagull talking about the importance of "enablers", small groups of players that "enable" other players to enjoy the game. Well your JF/Rorq pilots are certainly in those groups. The combination of the fatigue and the range bonus is brutal. Also take a look a the number of systems now in range of Jita, it's hilariously small, so good luck lighting a cyno at either of them.

On the upside all the people who were saving money for supers or titans can now put that into JF characters, having a personal JF alt to get around the fatigue issue may become a requirement.

Also have you looked at the fact that with no bonus to jump fatigue for regular freighter hulls, the common act of bridging freighters for ihub drops, station builds and upgrades to both of those will now become more difficult. This is one of those things that again is an inconvenience for larger groups, but another big barrier for small groups.

There has to be a cap on jump fatigue/cooldown. Putting aside capitals, how will jump bridges be explained to new players?

"Over there is a jump bridge. You can use them cover great distances quickly. But you mustn't use them too much, for if you do you will get Jump AIDS and never be able to jump again,"

I think the big thing is how many of these changes make "enablers" who already spend a lot of time playing this game, often for the benefit of others, look at the potential extra time added say "screw it, this is supposed to be a game, this isn't worth it." I think that's probably the most important thing you need to look at.

But given what we are now finding out about what the CSM was and wasn't told about this change, I think what we can anticipate a bumpy ride.

As someone else in this thread put it bring on The Winter of Discontent
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
CODE.
#3286 - 2014-10-02 14:20:02 UTC
I'm just here for my Official Threadnaught Donut.

kthnxbye

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3287 - 2014-10-02 14:20:20 UTC
Min Mar wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
ugly inside wrote:
Min Mar wrote:
Dave Kitaro wrote:
Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it?


It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner....


i guess you could say its LOGIcal to be in the business of LOGIstics?


The RL truckers dealing with those laws aren't doing logistic work? You will either spread the load more onto more player to do logistic work or lose player because you are starving at the end of a small logistical chain until your current setup can keep up. The people sharing the load the best will be able to keep themself at a higher level than those who rely on too few dudes.


That's my point: CCP is creating two additional logistical problems: fatigue (I'm ok with that) but also jump limitation (not OK). You can get around one by waiting but you need twice as many (actually 11.25/5=2.25) cynos to make a trip. Only larger alliances will have that many cyno pilots available, I don't have enough open slots in my accounts...


What if CCP wanted your alliance to share the hard work of logistics because they think that just a few dudes supplying an alliance is borked?
Eigenvalue
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#3288 - 2014-10-02 14:21:38 UTC
Roman Lynch wrote:

Use Moon Goo to make your t2 hulls


They need to re-balance the moons for this to be feasible. Given there's no information on this happening we have to assume it isn't.
Shade Millith
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co.
Simple Farmers
#3289 - 2014-10-02 14:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Dalia Rensini wrote:
I have 2 capital capable pilots on 2 accounts with 2 cyno alts on each account.

If I attempt to JF a single load of ANYTHING any further than 20 LY I will lock out both of my accounts completely out of any type of game play for ~ several days.

Please CCP tell me, what should I do during this time while waiting for POINTLESS timer to tick down?

This change makes people who fly sub caps and who do not understand the implications applaud because if anything makes nullbears cry, it must be good, and anyone who has a slightest clue what it means want to unsub.





Wrong.

It's 32 minutes of fatigue for a JF for 4 jumps

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rDMQpeKE-HzGKmFRTR69HJCk4McHyHz020Qs4Rgg414/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0

JF's are going to be incredibly quick to move compared to other capitals.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#3290 - 2014-10-02 14:22:59 UTC
Jen Moriarty wrote:
So... just a thought:
Party A is being attacked by party B, while on deployment somewhere else and cannot respond on time. Party A logs on 200 pilots in ceptors to fly around attacked system to increase TiDi while recalling their fleet. Possible?

Also - how do timers stack with TiDi? A cooldown of 5min could easiy become 50 minutes if TiDi is involved


They won't need 200 ceptors. Those 200 pilots will be in 'pre-postitioned Cache' capital ships.

Almost none of CCP's rebalancing of game mechanics works or will ever work because people are allowed to have alts. Hell i realized last night I've got 4 characters within 3 weeks tops of flying Archons (on top of the 3 that can do it right now, I have 4 accounts)

Something else not taken into account is Wormholes. Hell i've already hear people talk of taking over wormholes with null sec statics as a means of short circuiting some of these changes. Congrats wormhole guys who were laughing as null sec getting nerfed, they're coming for you lol.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#3291 - 2014-10-02 14:23:32 UTC
Finally Grayscale thought a good concept for EvE.

Now, if only the planned execution was not so rich of downsides...


The "let newbies come to Dekelein" is easy to fix: young clones suffer less from fatigues so they can have a reduction in timers (of course people shall exploit this, and then they'll have to create account wide cooldowns, but still...).

Many arguments are only apparently valid. In example, "we can't hit and run / ninja mine etc. any more". Yes, you'll have to set base closer to the risk and not sit in hi / low sec and then flip a switch to hit anywhere.

Also, wormholes will get a much bigger role due to their natural shortcut feature.

What I don't get are the timers, cooldowns and whatever. In 5 years, EvE will need a 2nd monitor just to show all the timers affecting a player. It sounds like a flawed implementation for a good concept.
Eigenvalue
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#3292 - 2014-10-02 14:24:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


What if CCP wanted your alliance to share the hard work of logistics because they think that just a few dudes supplying an alliance is borked?


Smaller space poor alliances can't afford a bunch of 6B ships to hand off to many people.

Less space poor alliances don't have enough players with many cyno alt accounts in addition to a JF toon and JF who are willing to spend hours on each contract.

Space rich alliances still won't find people willing to do one or two hauls per day because it's *exponentially more* boring than hauling as it stands now.
Fret Thiesant
Kiwis In Space
Black Rise Matters
#3293 - 2014-10-02 14:26:32 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


What if CCP wanted your alliance to share the hard work of logistics because they think that just a few dudes supplying an alliance is borked?


Smaller space poor alliances can't afford a bunch of 6B ships to hand off to many people.

Less space poor alliances don't have enough players with many cyno alt accounts in addition to a JF toon and JF who are willing to spend hours on each contract.

Space rich alliances still won't find people willing to do one or two hauls per day because it's *exponentially more* boring than hauling as it stands now.



So move to a different region if you can't handle the one you're in.
Heavypredator Singh
Collective-Company
#3294 - 2014-10-02 14:27:28 UTC
My Station Warehouse Container is leaking. Please no more tears. Noooo............
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#3295 - 2014-10-02 14:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Wow 3200 posts and not locked yet :D...

Funny but I've come to see a stable pattern here. Apart from the obvious trolls (some of whom sound like people who I heard recently got banned O_O ) and CFC/N3/PL haters, the general consensus here seems to be very much against these changes. Most disturbing is the complete lack of understanding on the PRO side of the debate of the real mechanics of the eve economy and nullsec politics. So briefly here is a simple synopsis:

1) The economy in this game is almost 100% unseeded. This means that players have to make the ships we fly and the guns we blow each other up with.

2) There is a DELIBERATE IMBALANCE in game resources between null and empire space. This was done to require interaction and combat across the entire cluster. Well rounded eve players generally have both carebear and combat alts to facilate this play mechanic.

3) Like it or not, this aspect of EVE requires a certain amount of stability in nullsec combined with a workable logistics chain in order to function. Break the economy and you break the game. Sorry guys, but you can't PVP without ships.....

4) YES the current balance of power has become stale and boring, for the megacorps and smaller entities alike.



Change will be welcome and is inevitable, but to be honest, the dev proposals that have everybody ranting will quite likely not change the political status quo one bit and present a grave threat to both the in game economy and the out game economy (wasting a year of training for a JF and then having it rendered useless in one swoop will provide a substantial rage/quit motivator to those players prone to do that) Why would the company present us with such foolishness? There are many simpler and more elegant solutions to the blue doughnut than this collection of half baked BS.


The dev blog that caused all of this reminds me very much of the (LOL redacted) blog on freighter fitting. which after causing a massive resonse thread like this one was quickly 'reworked' to this blog:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345280. Where the silly rig plan was replaced with quite viable and successful low slot plan

And funniest of all was the 'feedback' from the CSM which also seems to be suspiciously active for this thread too.......


HMMMMMM.... Would Greyscale and Fozzie etal. deliberately troll the player base?

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3296 - 2014-10-02 14:29:19 UTC
Brody Moennan wrote:
Is anyone else worried that these changes will lead to an oasis / wasteland dichotomy for the georgraphy of null once the powerblocks balance out again?

Also the jump clone deal seems uneeded. The 24hr timer and limitations of jump clone placement were enough to prevent any kind of major abuse beyond convenience when moving to a new home system or staging area.


The medical clone is a separate issue of the jump clone. The jump clone has a cooldown timer.

The medical clone has no such timer, its just a isk cost to update the clone.

The medical clone is a needed change (no more instant transmission at anytime across the galaxy bypassing jump clone mechanics). Will it make it harder for people to get around, yes. There will be risk. There is suppose to be risk.

Crysantos Callahan wrote:
A few question directed at Greyscale, would be awesome to get at least a short answer what to expect:

Will you relocate racial ice or do something about the regional difference of isotope availability?

Are there any plans to create more NPC space to create more space to attack sov holders and as some kind of evacuation point for the defenders?

What about moon goo, moon distribution and T2 production? Do you want to change these things a bit to allow smaller scale alliances to provide their own stuff?

Did you already run tests with larger capital/supercapital fleets using gates and the possible bumps that will happen?

Thanks in advance!


... these are all valid questions. I would assume they are working on the gate bumps (they just tested it with wormhole mass jump distance, so the code is already there).

The NPC space i don't see as a necessity atm. Its a viable option, and it may happen depending on how coalitions and alliance expand or contract to these changes. Are there some area's of space that are very far away from anytype of NPC space. Yes. Should every piece of space in eve be within 5 AU of a NPC nullsec or Lowsec Pocket? There are going to be area's that are naturally more difficult to reach. This doesn't mean that every area should be reachable by a siege fleet in a isolated jump off point npc nullsec pocket. This also does not mean that every area should be reachable by logistics as an alternative to seeding markets for a siege/attack/jump off point.

There will be area's that are unreachable by a jump drive. That's what future player made stargates and present wormholes are for.

The solution for racial ice would probably be wormhole space itself (yes I'll say it, load wormhole space with Ice). It won't stop people from interdicting certain racial ice, but it is another avenue. Moongoo is another issue, which in itself probably needs to be addressed to make it more of an active form of isk making vs its current passive form. Doing something like that though may make systems worthless in itself. The economy of goop is beyond the realms of this specific thread and these changes.

Yaay!!!!

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#3297 - 2014-10-02 14:30:42 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Shuffle moons around at the same time this comes out!

...

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3298 - 2014-10-02 14:31:12 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


What if CCP wanted your alliance to share the hard work of logistics because they think that just a few dudes supplying an alliance is borked?


Smaller space poor alliances can't afford a bunch of 6B ships to hand off to many people.

Less space poor alliances don't have enough players with many cyno alt accounts in addition to a JF toon and JF who are willing to spend hours on each contract.

Space rich alliances still won't find people willing to do one or two hauls per day because it's *exponentially more* boring than hauling as it stands now.


Ship can be passsed around because they don't get timers so you don need all that many more.

You only need the cyno line to be covered by someone online. No need to have your own cyno if the alliance is willing to work as a team to accomplish their logistic burden.

Space rich alliance can incentivise it and are even better setup to deal with the additionnal delays when things are getting setup. The key will be to make about 4 jump a day to make sure you don't hit the hard treshold on timer skyrocketing. Nobody will be making 3 trip in the same day but people are more likely to do short trip every day and there will be more of those people.

It will surely take a shitload more effort for everybody than it does now but I am pretty sure that is exactly what CCP want.
Dalia Rensini
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3299 - 2014-10-02 14:32:18 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Dalia Rensini wrote:
I have 2 capital capable pilots on 2 accounts with 2 cyno alts on each account.

If I attempt to jump a single load of ANYTHING any further than 20 LY I will lock out both of my accounts completely out of any type of game play for ~ several days.

Please CCP tell me, what should I do during this time while waiting for POINTLESS timer to tick down?

This change makes people who fly sub caps and who do not understand the implications applaud because if anything makes nullbears cry, it must be good, and anyone who has a slightest clue what it means want to unsub.





Wrong.

It's 32 minutes of fatigue for a JF for 4 jumps

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rDMQpeKE-HzGKmFRTR69HJCk4McHyHz020Qs4Rgg414/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0



Yeah ok for a JF pilot its not too bad. Try that moving my carrier now. 5 days.
Imolus
#3300 - 2014-10-02 14:35:00 UTC
Hello Mr. Greyscale,

my questions aren‘t directly related to the changes proposed, but I'd like to know your opinion on the subject.

  • Are you generally happy with the amount of alts and the way they are used for capital ship operation and their travel? More specifically, do you think it‘s acceptable that jump cappable ships pretty much require access to one or more alt accounts? This is comming from a person who has trained to fly jump freighters but never seriously gotten into the business because of mandatory (other solutions are very impractical) cyno alt account.

  • Do you have any plans to adress the need to light a cyno for your own capital ship? If not, maybe at least revise current options so that people could fit and light a cyno with a combat ready ship and have a chance to fight back? Maybe introduce deployable jump beacon structure or even give an option to remotely „order“ cyno service from a low sec station for a hefty fee?


Speaking of proposed changes to jump freighters, I think it would be nice if jump distance / fatigue could be tied to the volume of cargo. More cargo – shorter jump distance, longer fatigue timer; less cargo – longer max jump distance, less fatigue. This could be tied into bonses / penalties on some modules, for example cargo expanders would increase your fatigue per light year, while hyperspatial accelerators could decrease it, etc.