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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Robert Fortis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1921 - 2014-10-01 23:55:01 UTC
Turps Drinker wrote:
This is the death of nullsec small alliances, areas like Fountain will now be impregnable.

The only way to show our displeasure with how far these changes go is to vote with our feet. 6 accounts and 10toons now unsubbed.

Congrats CCP you just ensured the success of Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen.


Are you, perhaps, a bird? Maybe an unusually small specimen of the genus Gallus? One who possesses an overlarge fear of a small event?

Because right now you sound a lot like Chicken Little.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#1922 - 2014-10-01 23:55:24 UTC
I'm totally stoked for these changes.

The "I quit" posts in this thread are glorious.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1923 - 2014-10-01 23:55:55 UTC
Edgarr Friendly wrote:
I do love the idea of a capital ship jumping into a gate camp.

Especially when that gatecamp is a dreadcamp.

E: or should I say bootcamp?
hidexK
kenkyu unso monodukuri anahori
#1924 - 2014-10-01 23:56:07 UTC
Jump drive will need cyno and fuels to jump even though it is nerfed ?What?
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
The Bastion
#1925 - 2014-10-01 23:57:05 UTC
Edgarr Friendly wrote:
I do love the idea of a capital ship jumping into a gate camp.


Guess what the new bait ship's going to be...

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Joshua Milton Blahyi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1926 - 2014-10-01 23:57:45 UTC
Aryth wrote:


I really don't know why anyone thinks this is true. These changes will not bring that reality to pass. You are correct others coming might. There are mitigation methods to these. Many are already posted. Good luck mitigating mass farmed alts CCP.

I suspect that is their real intentions. Collection of more PLEX.


Sure, make CCP look greedy while you try and preserve your renter income.

Hypocrisy much?
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1927 - 2014-10-01 23:57:51 UTC
Pavlakakos wrote:

Suppose you're a small/medium sized renter living in B8O-KJ - Branch and you're happily ratting, mining with no reds around for the last 6 months. All you have to do is load the JF with the morphite and go sell it in Jita. With the changes, either you have to slowboat 25+ jumps thru the gates or risk weeks of fatigue.

Options? Either lower the rent or totally abandon the place. Definitely a blow to donut wallet.
More options: sell the minerals locally to a builder who creates useful items locally and sell them to the people living there

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Zhul Chembull
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#1928 - 2014-10-01 23:58:23 UTC
Dread Nanana wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
So you guys think this will stop everyone from dropping a fleet on ya ? They wont need to after they control the choke points. Sub-cap fleets again is all it is going to be. The people in smaller alliances with less time will be melted away due to not being able to logistically support their operation. Someone said it will be easier to defend ? Give me a break, you guys will get smashed by sub-cap fleets still. Once they have the area you have no hope of ever getting it again. The big alliances will get bigger and can stop supplies from the enemy in jumping down supplies by controlling the choke points.


Yeah it's kinda ridiculous that to do logistics in deep null if you happen to be blocked by a regional gate that is over 5LY you can easily end up going from needing 3-4 cynos in your chain to 8-10. This is an absurd increase and maybe someone at CCP thinks this will drive up subscriptions as you now need 3 more accounts to cyno with but I think it is more likely people will just quit.


Wormholes! Find them, use them. They will get you around any gate camp and HED-GP.

I suspect CCP will be be stupid and will remap some distances and sprinkle NPC 0.0 making deep 0.0 more accessible.


Wormholes for capital ships like rorquals and JF ? You know some of us actually play this game with a degree of organization instead of waiting for some random hole. We work on schedules on what we produce and provide the market with a certain amount of goods needed to produce what most of you use. You have no idea what a juicy target you are in these types of ships.

The safest thing is jumping your ships 5k from a station and insta docking. How does decreasing all this benefit the break up of the power blocks ? It doesn't at all. You have just made it easier for all them to control their areas and insure no one can get around them. It also makes the smaller alliances that rely on their ability to jump around the larger areas eliminated.

Increasing timers and shortening ranges just drive out the more casual players out of the game. You don't change the asshats that control the game, they will adapt and laugh at these changes. But, I am done arguing on the merits, when it deploys it will be total fail for us smaller guys. As someone said, I will adapt and just get rid of my other accounts. I have made lots through the years and will do something different than industrial. Mark my words here and watch as the larger alliances laugh and adapt.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1929 - 2014-10-01 23:58:35 UTC
I can't wait for these changes- I was always interested in using carriers, but it's been a bad idea for a long time- with this,it may be a possibility Smile

Also, I really do want them to just go all the way and just let caps use gates to get into high sec again- it would create a lot of fun 'emergent gameplay' for certain Big smile
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#1930 - 2014-10-01 23:58:50 UTC
Adapt. Or die. Or quit if you're unable to adapt.
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1931 - 2014-10-01 23:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Elise Randolph
I'm not sure what to think about this idea, because while I'm a huge advocate for changing how nullsec works, I can't help thinking that this idea is coming from the wrong place.

This is a very powerful misconception that a small entity cannot field capitals because the boogieman is right around the corner. The fact of the matter is that small groups with experience throw capitals around fairly often without getting caught. However when people get into the habit of throwing around capitals two things occur: others take notice, and hubris. I get messaged 3-5 times a week about someone fielding capitals recklessly. More often than not I completely ignore it, because fishing for capitals requires a fair amount of effort and it's usually just white noise. However when some entity gets very comfortable throwing capitals around without contingency plans, I try to punish them. It's not me randomly flying around with a cyno on my ship, it's people making a plan to catch them and executed the plan. The party that lost their capitals generally make noise about how getting ganked just isn't fair and then look to an outside force being responsible for the loss. This is natural, but it is simply white noise.

Another misconception is that nullsec fights between two parties are impossible because - thanks to "power projection" - everyone can show up to every fight. It is true that sov-based fights are frequently interrupted by non-involved parties, though that's about it. Not every entity with carriers shows up to every fight; CFC don't say 'oh hey BNI is fighting Provibloc, let's take 250 Carriers and stroll over there because we can project power'. Fights like B-R should, according to the "Power Projection Ruins Everything Baww" group, happen for every fight. Right?

Sov fights are frequently three-way'd not because anyone with a carrier can simply show up whenever they want to, but because the act of fighting over sov in a meaningful fashion is terrible. If I can get the benefit of the fight without having to do the actual work, of course that is appealing to me. Formup timers are more or less public in this day and age, so I can plan accordingly. FC's that threeway fights don't just sit there looking on the map for something, they /know/ where a fight is going to happen because it's completely transparent. When a fight is "ruined", an external force is always blamed. The nature of an Eve pilot.

If you think this is all bullshit hokum from a guy that drops on everything that moves, you simply have to look back at what fights were like before carriers were mandatory for nullsec pilots. For big timers, or fun timers, the same people who "ruin" and "escalate" fights now did it back then - with the same frequency. Turn back the clock to 2005 when Dyspro and Prom were the hotness of the day. The same people who controlled the income back then control income now (space instead of towers), and the same massive slugfests would happen over moons. FCs are a close-knit group, and they love chatting to one another about what is going to happen. Some even ask one another to show up to fights; a novel concept indeed.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I have a very solid understanding on what the real problems are and I'll happily touch on them briefly. CCP has the tendency of removing force multipliers from the game, forcing like-minded parties to get closer together out of necessity more than anything else. When Blap Titans were nerfed and left untouched, the capital meta ran wild. The new force multiplier wasn't a half dozen Blap Titans, but instead 50 Archons. While it was fairly trivial to seriously threaten 6 no-tank Titans, a block of 50 Archons was much less of a concern. If one bumps, or suffers from a socket closed error that we see so often lately, then who cares! It's 1/100th the risk of a bounced Titan, and can be built without holding any space. But 50 Archons didn't really have a natural counter. Titans got nerfed and left hanging, so you'd need 150 Titans to blap 50 DD-tanked Archons - not worth. Super Carriers can't do it because the fighter bombers get smartbombed off near instantly. Dreads are an OK counter, but you can counter Dreads by just bringing more Carriers. So the Capital meta ran wild while being relatively untouched and groups were required to coalesce in order to utilize these new force multipliers (since they now required an order of magnitude more people to pull off).

The most vital in reason that the state of nullsec is where it is now is because the Eve playerbase is amazing at finding the most efficient solutions to a scenario. After changing income from Technetium moons and putting it into space, 75% of the sov changed hands in the eight months that followed. That is an INSANE effect. Null-sec rules changes, and so null-sec went to war. Easy peasy.

Since then there have been no changes to the whole thing, and in spite of everything there have still been some significant wars - on par with the bloodshed we saw in the "good ole days". A coalition formed in the South and began to fight for space. Since the null-sec rules haven't changed, everyone understood that the best defense against any attacker is to just have an absolute shitload of space. There is a massive inequality between attacking space and defending it, with defense being significantly less taxing. Do I want to keep Malpais safe? Better control the 10 regions around it! So the party that actually WON the B-R fight, throwing a ten trillion isk punch, eventually stopped their attack because grinding the space was simply too horrible. Not only did they cancel their attack, but they managed to DISBAND and LOSE everything they had before starting the war. That is how awful sov-wars are right now.

cont'd https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5073602#post5073602

~

Edgarr Friendly
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1932 - 2014-10-01 23:59:14 UTC
Quote:
To work towards addressing issues with a stagnant NULL a possible approach could be to add a single NPC station in every constellation in NULL. This would allow for various groups small and large the ability to mount strategic offensives and sieges, disrupt trade route, diversify confrontation points, engage in guerrilla warfare, etc, etc... in NULL and challenge the monoliths.


Now if you wanna help the small people, this is an idea I could get behind
Oberus MacKenzie
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1933 - 2014-10-01 23:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberus MacKenzie
So with this change, the caps and subcaps I have scattered around new eden will become almost completely unrecoverable and useless?

If my corp wanted to move from one alliance on the east side of the galaxy to an alliance on the west side of the galaxy, does everyone have to sell ALL of their capitals and supercapitals and then re-buy them in the new location? Is our only alternative to spend countless hours warping unsupported cap groups through hostile space all the way around hisec?

Are you changing supercap construction so that it can take place in NPC null, or will it be nearly impossible for non-sov entities to acquire supers unless their neighbor is willing to sell them within 5 LY of pirate space?

Are you increasing mining yields so that mining isn't as much of an endlessly soul-sucking, fun-destroying burden of boredom that will become a necessity for nearly anyone who wants to make it in null?

Are you adding more defensive capabilities to mining support ships so that an entire PvP fleet doesn't have to share the same soul-sucking, fun-destroying fate while they babysit the miners?

Are you shuffling moons so that their resources are more evenly distributed throughout all regions and the price of T2 products doesn't leap to incredible heights?

Are you making T3 materials more widely available to the far reaches of null or are billions of ISK in T3 materials going to have to be transported from hisec by suicidal blockade runners every time a tengu fleet takes losses?

This seems so astonishingly stupid on so many levels that I'm almost unwilling to believe my eyes. With the way I'm envisioning these changes affecting my time spent doing fun things vs. time doing boring grind things, I'm seriously considering dropping this game entirely on the day these changes are implemented. If these are the kinds of ham-fisted, baby-out-with-the-bathwater solutions you guys have been tossing around up there in Reykjavik, it's no wonder that a lot of your best devs have been jumping ship. There's a number of fresh, wild and sexy space sandboxes coming out and Eve is looking more and more like the ancient, crippled grandfather who constantly ***** on himself while retelling one of his two "glory days" stories.
Aryndel Vyst
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1934 - 2014-10-01 23:59:59 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I'm totally stoked for these changes.

The "I quit" posts in this thread are glorious.


A real change of pace from the mission text you're used to seeing from SoE missions I suppose.
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1935 - 2014-10-02 00:00:14 UTC
bp920091 wrote:
Congratulations CCP, you've made Stain and just about every single NPC 0.0 region uninhabitable.

Good job, I couldnt have created a faster way to kill smaller groups if i tried.


Jump freighters get a 90% reduction in these penalties. Your lack of logic is frightening.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
Pandemic Unicorns
#1936 - 2014-10-02 00:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: MonkeyBusiness Thiesant
John McCreedy wrote:
This will increase the size of blue lists, not decrease it because you literally cannot get to Empire from Stain without passing through currently hostile space because you can't jump directly from Stain to Delve. Presumably the same will apply to Venal. Over night, you've created two wasteland regions that no one will want to live in.


Venal isn't nearly as bad, there's only 1 midpoint from empire, and it's npc (Mordus).

Of the other npc regions: Curse/Wildlands need to take a gate, Geminate can still jump to Forge LS, Ore can jump station to station and make it to Syndicate then out to empire, Fountain/Delve npc are cut off (although they could prolly midpoint in sovnull, there are often empty systems en route).


Stain will definitely be a unique area now, those living there will prolly need to build up an industrial base. There's perhaps opportunity there though, for it to be the regional market for the entirety of the south. That's something that might be an interesting by-product in npcnull pockets: they'll be the natural market hub locations for locals and those in regions around.
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1937 - 2014-10-02 00:01:12 UTC
Con't from https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5073593#post5073593 because I post too hard.




In my eyes the solution isn't messing with jump ranges, which simply exacerbates the need for the organized parties to control large swathes of space, but instead to change the null-sec rules. They don't have to be drastic, they don't have to have a reason, CCP just needs to inject some chaos and let Eve players fight and claw over the next big thing. Do I have a solution in mind? Nope; I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the right answers. However I do understand better than most the issues facing null-sec at the moment, and I fail to see how any of these changes will fix things for the better. Holding space is now more important, so stratops will now have to form earlier. I will simply reduce my offices to strategic locations, have a cache of ships in certain regions, then fly speed fit interceptors to death-clone to my new cache. If you come after my space, I'm going to choose awful timers and form up earlier than you to defend them. I will litter my space with Caldari Outposts so taking it is even more tedious. why? Because that's the easiest solution.

So I implore you CCP if you think this jump-shock **** is a great solution, fine go HAM all over it. But understand what the REAL issues are, and how this alone will only make it that much worse.

~

Tex Bloodhunter
SciFiCentral Explorations Inc.
#1938 - 2014-10-02 00:01:16 UTC
I obviously read none of the previous posts. I absolutely appreciate those changes. This will be great. But please don't forget T1 freighters and Orcas. They need that 90% role bonus too in order to keep industry logistics via titan bridges and pos bridges going in 0.0.
alenotna
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1939 - 2014-10-02 00:01:28 UTC
The problem that CCP are trying to solve is a real one and I applaud that they are trying to do something about it...

... but these are the absolute worst set of solutions that they could have picked. Cooldown timers? Really? That's the best that they could do? Sheesh....

As many others have said, these 'fixes' will just make the problem worse since larger power blocs will be the only ones that can cope with the logistics of getting around the changes.

And +1 also for those that have said that people who only get a couple of hours gameplay a day at most will all suffer horribly... sitting in station waiting for a cooldown timer to expire is... well, not cool.

I'm a supporter of system limits on capital ships or some other, more elegant solution that allows logistics to carry on but prevents the huge cap-fleets from leaping across New Eden and dominating the game. Whatever the answer is, it's certainly not this set of proposals I'm afraid.

So... +1 for trying to tackle the issue and -10 for the proposed implementation.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1940 - 2014-10-02 00:01:28 UTC
Joshua Milton Blahyi wrote:
Aryth wrote:


I really don't know why anyone thinks this is true. These changes will not bring that reality to pass. You are correct others coming might. There are mitigation methods to these. Many are already posted. Good luck mitigating mass farmed alts CCP.

I suspect that is their real intentions. Collection of more PLEX.


Sure, make CCP look greedy while you try and preserve your renter income.

Hypocrisy much?


Again, this doesn't impact our income. Quality of life oh sure. Income no.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.