These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

First post First post
Author
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#581 - 2014-09-30 22:09:00 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If you think null is deserted now, wait until there are npc stations full of archon fleets and jump clones distributed neatly across all of null. It will make bridging and cynos feel like waiting for a postcard from your great aunt Mammy Thule. (without the mustache)

Last time EG deployed half-way across the galaxy, it took about half an hour. Getting carrier fleets anywhere quickly is in no way dependent on NPC stations. Why again would null become more deserted when there's more NPC null?

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#582 - 2014-09-30 22:09:31 UTC
Mikhem wrote:
There seems to be big need for sovereignty system change. In current system lots of empty systems are controlled by large alliances. My (evil) mind came up something that could help this situation:

Could Territorial Claim units require POS fuel blocks? This would force large alliances to maintain their areas. Also there would be window to sabotage sovereignty ownage by just attacking transport/industrial moving fuel blocks. If TCU runs out of fuel blocks it would be destroyed. TCU could require fuel blocks from all major races in EVE.

Comments are welcome for my idea.
How would this do anything besides make logistics guys slightly more sad and raise the bar slightly higher for anyone fresh wanting to take sov?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#583 - 2014-09-30 22:11:41 UTC
Mikhem wrote:
Could Territorial Claim units require POS fuel blocks? This would force large alliances to maintain their areas.

We already have towers in pretty much all systems that we control. Fueling TCUs in addition to the tower just means loading one more box of fuel blocks into the Rorqual.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#584 - 2014-09-30 22:22:21 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If you think null is deserted now, wait until there are npc stations full of archon fleets and jump clones distributed neatly across all of null. It will make bridging and cynos feel like waiting for a postcard from your great aunt Mammy Thule. (without the mustache)

Last time EG deployed half-way across the galaxy, it took about half an hour. Getting carrier fleets anywhere quickly is in no way dependent on NPC stations. Why again would null become more deserted when there's more NPC null?



Carrier travel currently isn't dependant on NPC stations. If they were sprinkled throughout sov null, folks would use jump clones and truely instantly teleport to where they want to be. The speed at which you deployed half way across the galaxy is a problem. NPC stations scattered about will just make that worse.

If I were a null block that was forced to capitalize on game mechanics, I'd go from cynos to jump clones in a matter of days. If you didn't - you'd be stupid. So that being what it is, scattering NPC stations across null and forcing this would just be stupid. It would further support the stranglehold that has made null a deserted wasteland. It would make control more instant. It's just bad for the game.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#585 - 2014-09-30 22:45:16 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If you think null is deserted now, wait until there are npc stations full of archon fleets and jump clones distributed neatly across all of null. It will make bridging and cynos feel like waiting for a postcard from your great aunt Mammy Thule. (without the mustache)

So why isn't current NPC null like this? There's no pattern or precedent for your claim. In fact current NPC null has residents apart from the the blocs residing there. Why would this suddenly change?
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#586 - 2014-09-30 23:41:21 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.


22. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.

Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited.


27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.


32. Rumor mongering is prohibited.

Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the well being and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Cae Lara
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#587 - 2014-09-30 23:43:28 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
Oh do give it a rest. It's CCP's game and

... and a surprising number of player representatives, leaders and experts have come to a common agreement to create a considered constructive document of suggestions to aid ccp in improving eve online


What's surprising about a group of players that all have treaties signed with one another continuing to look out for their common interest of maintaining the status quo and making it more secure?
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#588 - 2014-09-30 23:44:11 UTC
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

perhaps this thread can be stickied in its place to reflect the topic's obvious importance and to acknowledge the open letter's mass endorsement by some of the most well respected leaders and content creators in eve online


Oh do give it a rest. It's CCP's game and everyone who plays it has an interest in it, not just "leaders" (much arrogance?) and "content creators" (double-speak given that they have an agreement not to create any content any more).


Only action you see in null is catch and providence. I've been checking dotlan for the last couple of weeks. Caldari space is far more dangerous than null.

They do nothing for the game, and actually it's just the opposite. They have ruined it.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#589 - 2014-09-30 23:49:37 UTC
Cae Lara wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
Oh do give it a rest. It's CCP's game and

... and a surprising number of player representatives, leaders and experts have come to a common agreement to create a considered constructive document of suggestions to aid ccp in improving eve online


What's surprising about a group of players that all have treaties signed with one another continuing to look out for their common interest of maintaining the status quo and making it more secure?


Goon want their npc stations in every region so they have launch points.

http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/the-voices-have-spoken-but-to-what-end/
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#590 - 2014-09-30 23:54:59 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I've given this some thought and I'm actually gonna do a complete 180 on this. CCP should implement the whole population density thing post haste on TQ. I was wrong, I'm sorry.

To anyone opposed to the idea for misguided reasons, two questions to consider:

1) What happens when all the nullbears and renters of a coalition are condensed into ~10 pve systems and the surrounding systems are generally inadequate for pve due to lack of upgrades/activity?

2) What do renters fear most?


I'm going to answer these rhetorical questions just because I can.

1) Why, local starts looking like highsec and god help you actually notice when someone new has come into a highsec system.

2) Okay, so I'm not going to answer both questions because I'm not a renter.

The answer to (1) and (2) is actually the same: The afk cloaker.

It's also probably the reason why pasta is a signatory of this proposal.


Actually, condensing people down into a few system slike that hurts afk cloakers, because cloaky hotdroppers rely on weak singular targets. It's one thing dropping on people when help has to gate jump or cyno in, it's another when the guy gettting dropped on is in a 100 man strong defense fleet that can just dock and reship into heap but effective ships (Cruisers, BCs etc).

I don't see any alterior motives. I see a repeat of the Dominion mistikes.

A short list:

-Human Nature. In game as in real life, people don't fight over things they can buy or trade for. Despite what people think, people are generally cooperative by nature (which is why on a planet of 6 billion+ souls, only a tiny tiny fraction is actually doing any shooting and killing of each other, TV just makes it seem like more lol).

This 'agreement' seems to rely on the mistaken belief that people want to fight each other. If they did everyone wouldn't be blue lol. What people want is to WIN , and if the best way to do that is cooperation (OTEC, Coalitions, etc) then that's what will happen. These suggestions will end up in BOTLRD styled "don't screw our heartlands" agreements and not much more.

-Relying on PVE as the cornerstone of the system. Dominion did this, system upgrade status decays if no one uses it.

-Failing to understand the null sec does not exist in a vacuum. Related to the 2nd point. The signatories aren't PVE players, they don't understand that people in null alliances pve for quick funds and will not stack up in crowded systems where you can't see all of local and stand a higher chance of losing a pve fit carrier or BS. Why do that when you can incursion under COMCORD protection of do FW missions in frig sized ships.

This problem is exacerbated by npc null in every region. Bad guys so close is even more reason for people to abandon null for safer empire isk making.

-The null sec rewards paradox. CCP unwittingly created a situations where increasing wealth generation high enough to be worth it in null has the knock on effect of burning up the EVE economy. We saw this with the 500 mil an hour Titan + tracking link scimitar madness of the early Dominion days. Now it's super carriers but not that bad.

PVE rewards high enough (in a 'condensed' null sec scheme) to entice people to not flee to high sec, low sec and wormhole alt corp groups would be so high that it would be worthwhile for alliances to lock down their own systems with cyno jammers and standby defense fleets (who aren't PVEing, like the guys who guarded those FW mission locust fleets in the early days). While that sounds cool, you end up with higher inflationary preassure thats bad for everyone.



The above are just a few consequences of the ideas contained in the agreement. It's wrong headed to support game mechancis changes when what's really needed is better tools.

By 'better tools' I mean "Malcanis law resistant' tools ie things that give smaller poorer groups capabilities they would not normally have BUT are useless to larger richer groups. An example of the idea was seen in the last Alliance tournament. Some teams used 2 logi frigs instead of one logi cruiser. Less repping power, but also a MUCH lower points cost.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#591 - 2014-10-01 00:25:29 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Goon want their npc stations in every region so they have launch points.

http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/the-voices-have-spoken-but-to-what-end/


who the **** are "goon"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#592 - 2014-10-01 00:27:06 UTC
Andski wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Goon want their npc stations in every region so they have launch points.

http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/the-voices-have-spoken-but-to-what-end/


who the **** are "goon"

He meant goonie

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#593 - 2014-10-01 00:38:05 UTC
Andski wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Goon want their npc stations in every region so they have launch points.

http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/the-voices-have-spoken-but-to-what-end/


who the **** are "goon"


Really?
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#594 - 2014-10-01 00:45:35 UTC
did you know that 'goon' is a singular term and not a plural or collective term

no, apparently not

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#595 - 2014-10-01 01:03:24 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If you think null is deserted now, wait until there are npc stations full of archon fleets and jump clones distributed neatly across all of null. It will make bridging and cynos feel like waiting for a postcard from your great aunt Mammy Thule. (without the mustache)

So why isn't current NPC null like this? There's no pattern or precedent for your claim. In fact current NPC null has residents apart from the the blocs residing there. Why would this suddenly change?



It's pretty basic reasoning. The distribution of NPC stations in null is pretty limited. So it's not as practical to do the clone jump thing. Put 1 or 3 in every region and suddenly it is practical. The more you spread the NPC stations across null the more practical clone jumping becomes.

No pattern or precedence?? It would be a new system, so of course there is no pattern or precedence. If you're arguing that it's not likely because they aren't doing it now then you're just not getting it.

The relatively recent introduction of the advanced infomorph psychology skill is what the cynic in me kind of wonders about. I mean really, who needs 10 jump clones. On the other hand, with NPC stations scattered across null this suddenly becomes quite useful.

It's chicken and egg really. Now that there is an option for 10 clones, of course I'd want NPC stations all over null. Combine that with the deep pockets that can put multiple fleets in said NPC stations and the whole proposed system becomes rather obviously abuse ready. I mean heck, a non relevant guy like me w/ little null experience and no stake in null politics can figure this out.... I'd think just about anyone could.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#596 - 2014-10-01 01:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Andski wrote:
did you know that 'goon' is a singular term and not a plural or collective term

no, apparently not


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goon

it's the 1st definition, the one with the number 1 beside it.

And in case you missed this in your propaganda adventures.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5063055#post5063055
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#597 - 2014-10-01 01:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Andski wrote:
did you know that 'goon' is a singular term and not a plural or collective term

no, apparently not


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goon

it's the 1st definition, the one with the number 1 beside it.

And in case you missed this in your propaganda adventures.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5063055#post5063055


right and it's still not a plural or collective noun

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#598 - 2014-10-01 01:31:47 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
If you think null is deserted now, wait until there are npc stations full of archon fleets and jump clones distributed neatly across all of null. It will make bridging and cynos feel like waiting for a postcard from your great aunt Mammy Thule. (without the mustache)

So why isn't current NPC null like this? There's no pattern or precedent for your claim. In fact current NPC null has residents apart from the the blocs residing there. Why would this suddenly change?



It's pretty basic reasoning. The distribution of NPC stations in null is pretty limited. So it's not as practical to do the clone jump thing. Put 1 or 3 in every region and suddenly it is practical. The more you spread the NPC stations across null the more practical clone jumping becomes.

No pattern or precedence?? It would be a new system, so of course there is no pattern or precedence. If you're arguing that it's not likely because they aren't doing it now then you're just not getting it.

The relatively recent introduction of the advanced infomorph psychology skill is what the cynic in me kind of wonders about. I mean really, who needs 10 jump clones. On the other hand, with NPC stations scattered across null this suddenly becomes quite useful.

It's chicken and egg really. Now that there is an option for 10 clones, of course I'd want NPC stations all over null. Combine that with the deep pockets that can put multiple fleets in said NPC stations and the whole proposed system becomes rather obviously abuse ready. I mean heck, a non relevant guy like me w/ little null experience and no stake in null politics can figure this out.... I'd think just about anyone could.

well the thing is, there are currently some regions of NPC space in null areas (not a lot, but they are there) and geuss who stages from them. Goons? PL? HERO? It's usually smaller groups, sometimes medium sized groups even. They use them as bases for fun and to farm the renters/goons for their ratters and the occasional gangs. So there is precedence against your proposal. Why would anyone waste time with standings or moving the clone when they have much more easily availible options.
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#599 - 2014-10-01 02:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Strange Shadow
Occupancy SOV just adds even more grind than current system.

For SOV warfare, structure grind is replaced by rat grind (or whatever grind, to prove that you 'occupied' here). For both attacker and defender. All day long, for a few days, for each system. Average null people will be rejoiced to grind more stuff i imagine, so many signatures under that letter.
For SOV holding, few afk cloakers with cynos can conquer SOV for anybody in a few days, even if deadspace instances used - just bridge few ceptors through to catch that phat ratting golem, ceptors with 'warping speed' rigs will get on top of him in 15 seconds.
Also for SOV holding, ratting becomes mandatory, it will be more like going to work rather than logging to play game.
Current system is way better in all those regards.

Whoever proposed occupancy SOV had not thought it through obviously.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#600 - 2014-10-01 02:58:50 UTC
Strange Shadow wrote:
Occupancy SOV just adds even more grind than current system.

For SOV warfare, structure grind is replaced by rat grind (or whatever grind, to prove that you 'occupied' here). For both attacker and defender. All day long, for a few days, for each system. Average null people will be rejoiced to grind more stuff i imagine, so many signatures under that letter.
For SOV holding, few afk cloakers with cynos can conquer SOV for anybody in a few days, even if deadspace instances used - just bridge few ceptors through to catch that phat ratting golem, ceptors with 'warping speed' rigs will get on top of him in 15 seconds.
Also for SOV holding, ratting becomes mandatory, it will be more like going to work rather than logging to play game.
Current system is way better in all those regards.

Whoever proposed occupancy SOV had not thought it through obviously.


nobody said anything about it depending exclusively on PvE

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar