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The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#541 - 2014-09-30 16:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Where are these magical tens of thousands now? Why are they not fighting right now? Or you claim that highsec miners will take the abandoned space and will form deadly small gangs?


They are stuck outside of null sov because the current mechanics make it impossible for them to be able to do anything against us.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Well, considering such Goon sponsored events as Burn Jita and Hulkageddon, and such Goon sponsored organizations as CODE and Miniluv, and the longstanding desire of Goons to cajole (or even force) players to leave highsec for nullsec, it's quite reasonable that those who oppose that agenda would make their voices heard, and critically analyze the proposed "solutions" for nullsec, with a specific focus on how they buff nullsec rewards, and serve as a relative nerf on highsec income, which will attract more players to nullsec.

It's not "grrr.... Goons," it's just common sense.


What is so bad about null being attractive to come to?
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2014-09-30 16:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
baltec1 wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Where are these magical tens of thousands now? Why are they not fighting right now? Or you claim that highsec miners will take the abandoned space and will form deadly small gangs?


They are stuck outside of null sov because the current mechanics make it impossible for them to be able to do anything against us.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

It’s pretty common knowledge that if you want a toon in Null Sec you just need to join any of the CFC Alliances as the recruitment requirement is pretty low. So if anyone is "stuck outside of null" then they probably only have one account.

And yeah, thats pretty whacky that the only people kicking up a stink in this thread are non-goonie......who wudah thunk dat.....Roll

Anywhoo......the Null "Back Room" Deal that’s being promoted looks like a Trojan horse approach. "Just get it through the door and by the time they stop to really examine what its carrying it will be too late"...Lol
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#543 - 2014-09-30 16:37:13 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Well, considering such Goon sponsored events as Burn Jita and Hulkageddon, and such Goon sponsored organizations as CODE and Miniluv, and the longstanding desire of Goons to cajole (or even force) players to leave highsec for nullsec, it's quite reasonable that those who oppose that agenda would make their voices heard, and critically analyze the proposed "solutions" for nullsec, with a specific focus on how they buff nullsec rewards, and serve as a relative nerf on highsec income, which will attract more players to nullsec.

It's not "grrr.... Goons," it's just common sense.
Lets face it though, most of these people are arguing because the idea is backed by goons, not because they disagree with the idea. Half of them probably haven't got a clue what they are disagreeing with. The insane thing is how many times this has been raised as an idea on F&I by the non-null guys and how it's the same crowd now suddenly like "activity based sov? NO WAY GOONS!".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#544 - 2014-09-30 16:37:42 UTC



baltec1 wrote:


What is so bad about null being attractive to come to?


Nothing per se. Just like there is nothing wrong with highsec, lowsec, or wormholes being attractive. All different types of space should be attractive for folks seeking that type of experience. So people should go to nullsec to be able to participate in player controlled alliances, to control large swaths of space, and for large scale pvp fleet combat. People should go to lowsec for small gang pvp and faction warfare, and some measure of security on gates. People should go to wormholes for the cloak and dagger mechanics, the secrecy, and the chance to be part of a small group to make an impact. And people should go to highsec for relative safety and security, relaxed collaborative PvE, wardecc mechanics, and robust trade hubs.

And that's great. Now the problem is that nullsec has become stagnant and boring. Supercapital fleets sit in drydock, people dock up to avoid fleet fights, and everyone is just looking for turkey shoots. The large powerblocs fail to engage each other, and everyone is kinda bored and depressed.

The problem is that the suggested changes do nothing to fundamentally change that malady. Instead, they just serve to consolidate sov and make farming easier. It's basically bribing people to come to nullsec without making it any more exciting, and that just doesn't make sense.

What is really needed are fundamental changes to get the large powerblocs to meaningfully engage each other in supercapital combat, to actually have some of the major alliances collapse, and to radically shake things up throughout. Stop having a design where the natural progression is towards larger and larger alliances that are too risk averse for the kind of total war that nullsec should be about.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#545 - 2014-09-30 16:42:26 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:



The problem is that the suggested changes do nothing to fundamentally change that malady. Instead, they just serve to consolidate sov and make farming easier. It's basically bribing people to come to nullsec without making it any more exciting, and that just doesn't make sense.


These changes are only to deal with the need for massive galaxy spanning empires. There are other fixes needed for the other issues null faces.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#546 - 2014-09-30 16:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
baltec1 wrote:

They are stuck outside of null sov because the current mechanics make it impossible for them to be able to do anything against us.
70% of the CFC losses come from non-sov holders, so owning sov isn't a pre-requisite of fighting. My question is, can you point at an organization that isn't killing CFC now and with this suggestion will start killing CFC? Where are they?


*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Rumbaldi
United Stellar Federation
The Rogue University
#547 - 2014-09-30 16:49:11 UTC
NPC 0.0 in every sov region????... so you can just park up those sub cap fleets in convenient places in every null sec system, so that any force projection change that nerfs range will not really affect anyone, because the ships will already be in NPC 0.0 just waiting for the pilot.
Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
#548 - 2014-09-30 16:49:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:



The problem is that the suggested changes do nothing to fundamentally change that malady. Instead, they just serve to consolidate sov and make farming easier. It's basically bribing people to come to nullsec without making it any more exciting, and that just doesn't make sense.


These changes are only to deal with the need for massive galaxy spanning empires. There are other fixes needed for the other issues null faces.


Are you saying that there would be no requirement for the CFC to stay together if you get the sort of sov-system you are after?


Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#549 - 2014-09-30 16:55:19 UTC
By the way, the following idea was posted by someone totally against activity based sov:
Quote:
Maybe CCP should change the sov mechanics to something like this:

- All mining towers and stations are NPC operated and indestructible.
- The system starts with no sov holder, the system is NPC null and the moon goo belongs to no one, no cyno jammer is present.
- In "NPC null" state, the sov-number is calculated as the ratio of ISK destroyed (not looted) in kills by your alliance. If your alliance destroyed 32% of ISK in the system in the last 30 days, you have 32% sov points.
- (after 30 days of data available) if your alliance is over 30% and has 10% more than the second highest you become the sov holder. You get the moon goo, you control the station and can erect a cyno jammer. The sov number resets.
- If the sov is held by an alliance, the sov number is calculated as "ISK destroyed by owners vs ISK destroyed by everyone else against the owners (not on randoms) in the system in the last 30 days".
- (after the 30 days grace period) if the sov number goes below 50%, you lose sov and NPC null state returns.


Any guesses on who?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#550 - 2014-09-30 16:57:54 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:



The problem is that the suggested changes do nothing to fundamentally change that malady. Instead, they just serve to consolidate sov and make farming easier. It's basically bribing people to come to nullsec without making it any more exciting, and that just doesn't make sense.


These changes are only to deal with the need for massive galaxy spanning empires. There are other fixes needed for the other issues null faces.


Are you saying that there would be no requirement for the CFC to stay together if you get the sort of sov-system you are after?




There would be no pressing need like today, it will not mean we break up though.

The aim of this change is not to smash up the coalitions its to shrink our empire dramatically so that there is room for others to enter null.
Heat-seeking Moisture Missile
Deep Thought Labs
#551 - 2014-09-30 16:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
baltec1 wrote:

The aim of this change is not to smash up the coalitions its to shrink our empire dramatically so that there is room for others to enter null.


Yeah I wanna see 500-2500 man alliances thrive in their on sov space.

:content: and fun baby!



Fixed quoting. ISD Ezwal.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#552 - 2014-09-30 17:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
My question is, can you point at an organization that isn't killing CFC now and with this suggestion will start killing CFC? Where are they?


In NPC null, in lowsec, in WH and in HS.

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#553 - 2014-09-30 17:04:01 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Andski wrote:
Unless you honestly believe that rules of engagement were the deciding factor in the fact that two coalitions own basically all of nullsec



NBSI isn't about the rules of engagement, it's about the rules of peace. NBSI does 'work'. It creates a theater of 0 hostility. It eliminates all option for wide scale threat. It creates blue donuts.

Of course that's a double edged sword. We now have a passive null sec and that seems to be the complaint. Sorry, I won't support change in EVE when the people crying for change won't? Change.

:tldr You got what you wanted. Now rot in it. Or change.


Unlike NRDS which is essentially NBSI with a gigantic red list instead of a short blue list

Again, you're wrong and NBSI has nothing to do with the current situation


The NRDS system is a three point system. Blue, Red and Neutral. You continue to neglect the Neutrals.The NBSI system is a fence, nobody is neutral. Blue Donut is not a mechanic. It's a place in time that came about from NBSI game play. It has happened before. In addition, there are aspects of Provi Bloc NRDS I think could be improved upon and refined.

There are other factors to this, factors you haven't mentioned that make an NRDS sector of CFC unlikely.
- One, you don't have the credibility to run it.
- Two, you could argue if it did take off, you would see more PvE but not PvP. I'm pretty sure the the obvious is at play here though. The only hot spots in EVE right now are in NRDS space.
- History also shows the Nerf bat follows the populace and not mechanical balance factors. So introducing more people to Null is going to see the nerf bat make its way out of popular high sec.

By the nature of your solution you are in fact agreeing with me, NBSI is the problem. You don't want me, A Neutral to dock up in your stations. You want CCP to offer NPC stations I can dock up in. I can tell you based on the option to move to Sansha regions now has crossed my mind but I can't create supply lines to get there. I can't create a logistics scenario that lets me live there.

The true difference I think we have is, you seem content with Null populace and are fine with dividing up the Null players in to Blue and not blue. My goal for Null is to see more people in it and to include the true neutral. The people who don't hate you, don't like you, don't care what you do. They make up 70% of the EVE population.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#554 - 2014-09-30 17:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
They are stuck outside of null sov because the current mechanics make it impossible for them to be able to do anything against us.
70% of the CFC losses come from non-sov holders, so owning sov isn't a pre-requisite of fighting. My question is, can you point at an organization that isn't killing CFC now and with this suggestion will start killing CFC? Where are they?

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

The point of fixing sovereignty is not conformity for your Grr Goons narrative, nobody is going to hand you out a magic bullet or do your work for you, especially not CCP. You should not expect CCP to change the game according to what you want, just because you personally cannot reach that point in game. Why should CCP personally bail you out?

'Little guys' do not hate it, they are behind this initiative. 90% of null, not just sov empires, have found a common ground, and came up with this. Anyone else objecting are hard to take seriously because of the tinfoil on their heads and their hilarious inability to represent a viable alternative suggestion.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#555 - 2014-09-30 17:14:24 UTC
Ocih wrote:
The only hot spots in EVE right now are in NRDS space.


That would be the war currently going on down there, not because of their NBDS policy.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#556 - 2014-09-30 17:30:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
NBDS

well that certainly sounds interesting
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#557 - 2014-09-30 17:38:37 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
With the new proposal, most land will be abandoned and open for anyone. The nearest able enemy will be 20+ jumps away. Sure, they will form an anti-CFC roam once a week or so, just for the old times sake, but they won't have conflict of interest with the CFC. The CFC will be a bad historic enemy to them, like BoB is to Goons. Old MoA members will tell stories about the glorious days of fighting CFC to new ones, but for new ones CFC will be just another bunch of players 20 jumps away.


That's the point of the new proposal, coupled with the fact that they could move in to NPC Deklein. And oh my, 20 jumps is too far for MOA? What a tragedy.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#558 - 2014-09-30 17:45:56 UTC
Ocih wrote:
The NRDS system is a three point system. Blue, Red and Neutral. You continue to neglect the Neutrals.The NBSI system is a fence, nobody is neutral. Blue Donut is not a mechanic. It's a place in time that came about from NBSI game play. It has happened before. In addition, there are aspects of Provi Bloc NRDS I think could be improved upon and refined.

There are other factors to this, factors you haven't mentioned that make an NRDS sector of CFC unlikely.
- One, you don't have the credibility to run it.
- Two, you could argue if it did take off, you would see more PvE but not PvP. I'm pretty sure the the obvious is at play here though. The only hot spots in EVE right now are in NRDS space.
- History also shows the Nerf bat follows the populace and not mechanical balance factors. So introducing more people to Null is going to see the nerf bat make its way out of popular high sec.

By the nature of your solution you are in fact agreeing with me, NBSI is the problem. You don't want me, A Neutral to dock up in your stations. You want CCP to offer NPC stations I can dock up in. I can tell you based on the option to move to Sansha regions now has crossed my mind but I can't create supply lines to get there. I can't create a logistics scenario that lets me live there.

The true difference I think we have is, you seem content with Null populace and are fine with dividing up the Null players in to Blue and not blue. My goal for Null is to see more people in it and to include the true neutral. The people who don't hate you, don't like you, don't care what you do. They make up 70% of the EVE population.
I'm pretty sure if we were NRDS, everyone would just be red or blue.

And anyway, the problem is that sov mechanics favour enormous groups by their very nature, so creating super coalitions is simply the best way to efficiently hold space. NRDS wouldn't change who owns the space, it would just be allowing free renting. It may work for proviblock since they life in space so terrible that nearly nobody wants it, but it really wouldn't work with serious null alliances.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Bhuda Slash
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#559 - 2014-09-30 17:46:53 UTC
I endorse this post.

No animals were harmed during this post.

May contain traces of nuts, palm oil and coffee harvested in the 3rd world using Amarr slaves.

Names of the slaves have been changed to protect their masters.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#560 - 2014-09-30 17:50:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ocih wrote:
The only hot spots in EVE right now are in NRDS space.


That would be the war currently going on down there, not because of their NBDS policy.


Provi Bloc opposition is an evolved group who decided it was 'corrupt' by being in that space. They seeded their own pew pew just by being NRDS. Being seen as a manageable target plays in to it as well but in any CFC pilot project with NRDS space, that can be in the benefit of CFC. Most neutrals won't see CFC as a valid target to oppose because they are seen as too strong to beat. They might go there to get a piece of you but they won't bite off more than they can chew, like what happens in Provi a lot.