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The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#481 - 2014-09-30 04:39:16 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Let me put it another way: You're bored shitless right now because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other. That same 90% of nullsec (coalitions and renters) will still refuse to shoot each other after the proposed changes. You'll still be bored shitless.


I get bored shitless when 3 hours of fighting is stretched to a period of 23 hours to be honest. If we just started shooting each other tomorrow, this is literally what we'd be stuck with.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#482 - 2014-09-30 04:42:22 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
The short version: nullsec alliances will condense to constellations and rat there in capitals in complete safety as no pirate gang could break their spider-tank. The nearest competent enemy would be 5 regions away, separated by huge buffer zone of terribads who can be farmed for laughs. There won't be a single war or even major battle in Nullsec.

"complete safety"
"spider-tanking ratting carriers"
"everybody who isn't goons or N3 is terribad"

I get that right?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#483 - 2014-09-30 04:45:26 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Rowells wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Rowells wrote:

no. the big will always prey on the small. no change in mechanics or anything is going to stop that.

So, what you're saying is that with current incentives people will keep joining the two largest coalitions so that they too can "win" by being big?

Won't you just be back in 6 months, after the novelty wears off, complaining that nullsec is still stagnant?

"With current incentives" meaning nothing changed just the map layout, yes. And I'm assuming you play to win as well? will we see you in CFC some time soon? Most likely not. For whatever reason you and your alliance decided to literally do the opposite of 'join the two largest coalitions so that they too can "win" by being big'. Winning for some people isn't just being part of the biggest bloc in the game.

See but that isn't true. A casual look at dotlan will show that people have left MoA for the larger coalitions. One of the larger corps - Epsilon Lyr, for example, recently left for nulli secunda. Likewise, I suspect many in the cfc wont be happy if all of the content they get for the next couple years is what remains of MoA. Cool
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#484 - 2014-09-30 04:46:22 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
The short version: nullsec alliances will condense to constellations and rat there in capitals in complete safety as no pirate gang could break their spider-tank. The nearest competent enemy would be 5 regions away, separated by huge buffer zone of terribads who can be farmed for laughs. There won't be a single war or even major battle in Nullsec.

"complete safety"
"spider-tanking ratting carriers"
"everybody who isn't goons or N3 is terribad"

I get that right?


Guy who doesn't do anything in game because he couldn't get in to the corp of his choice & can never have a dual-tanked tackling mining titan knows everything about what will happen because of :reasons & :tinfoil.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#485 - 2014-09-30 04:48:46 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Let me put it another way: You're bored shitless right now because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other. That same 90% of nullsec (coalitions and renters) will still refuse to shoot each other after the proposed changes. You'll still be bored shitless.


I get bored shitless when 3 hours of fighting is stretched to a period of 23 hours to be honest. If we just started shooting each other tomorrow, this is literally what we'd be stuck with.

A fair and valid point. But when N3PL crams all their dudes and renters into a handful of systems, you'll have the exact same problem: TiDi practically guarantees a 23 hour fight in these densely populated home systems.

So you have the same problem: You're bored shitless because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#486 - 2014-09-30 05:05:25 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Rowells wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Rowells wrote:

no. the big will always prey on the small. no change in mechanics or anything is going to stop that.

So, what you're saying is that with current incentives people will keep joining the two largest coalitions so that they too can "win" by being big?

Won't you just be back in 6 months, after the novelty wears off, complaining that nullsec is still stagnant?

"With current incentives" meaning nothing changed just the map layout, yes. And I'm assuming you play to win as well? will we see you in CFC some time soon? Most likely not. For whatever reason you and your alliance decided to literally do the opposite of 'join the two largest coalitions so that they too can "win" by being big'. Winning for some people isn't just being part of the biggest bloc in the game.

See but that isn't true. A casual look at dotlan will show that people have left MoA for the larger coalitions. One of the larger corps - Epsilon Lyr, for example, recently left for nulli secunda. Likewise, I suspect many in the cfc wont be happy if all of the content they get for the next couple years is what remains of MoA. Cool
Or you could take a look at a larger sample than the last 2 weeks and see your alliance is above the numbers it had at the start of the year and had a very long period between April and August where you were almost twice as big as the beginning. Even HERO has been seeing a very decent net gain over the same period of time. At the same time, goons lost a chunk mid year and have remained stagnant. People don't always choose their comrades based on numbers and statistics. Even if those numbers and statistics drive their gameplay styles to the core.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#487 - 2014-09-30 05:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Let me put it another way: You're bored shitless right now because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other. That same 90% of nullsec (coalitions and renters) will still refuse to shoot each other after the proposed changes. You'll still be bored shitless.


I get bored shitless when 3 hours of fighting is stretched to a period of 23 hours to be honest. If we just started shooting each other tomorrow, this is literally what we'd be stuck with.

A fair and valid point. But when N3PL crams all their dudes and renters into a handful of systems, you'll have the exact same problem: TiDi practically guarantees a 23 hour fight in these densely populated home systems.

So you have the same problem: You're bored shitless because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other.


They won't be forced to cram all of their dudes in to a handful of systems though, that's the entire point. To hold space it will have to be used. Plonking a bunch of people in to a system without actually using it won't allow them to retain sov & as an added bonus, it makes having massive coalitions detrimental to any war effort or skirmish due to the existence of TiDi.

Nullsec not shooting each other will cease to be a thing because holding vast areas of space will cease to be a thing.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#488 - 2014-09-30 05:09:53 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Let me put it another way: You're bored shitless right now because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other. That same 90% of nullsec (coalitions and renters) will still refuse to shoot each other after the proposed changes. You'll still be bored shitless.


I get bored shitless when 3 hours of fighting is stretched to a period of 23 hours to be honest. If we just started shooting each other tomorrow, this is literally what we'd be stuck with.

A fair and valid point. But when N3PL crams all their dudes and renters into a handful of systems, you'll have the exact same problem: TiDi practically guarantees a 23 hour fight in these densely populated home systems.

So you have the same problem: You're bored shitless because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other.

Thats why this isn't a single dimensional problem. Simply looking at sov and saying "thats your problem there" is not enough. The argument delved down into very specific area of debate in this thread and doesnt seem to be getting out any time soon.

Like for instance the idea to nerf logi. Throw that into the equation and, yes for the first portion of the fight its a tidi slugfest, but as people start dying it becomes less and less crowded until the losers have fled or died to the last man.

We need to keep in mind the other solutions and problems floating around while we disect one subject apart until it is a gory , unrecognizable mess on the table.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#489 - 2014-09-30 05:12:23 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Let me put it another way: You're bored shitless right now because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other. That same 90% of nullsec (coalitions and renters) will still refuse to shoot each other after the proposed changes. You'll still be bored shitless.


I get bored shitless when 3 hours of fighting is stretched to a period of 23 hours to be honest. If we just started shooting each other tomorrow, this is literally what we'd be stuck with.

A fair and valid point. But when N3PL crams all their dudes and renters into a handful of systems, you'll have the exact same problem: TiDi practically guarantees a 23 hour fight in these densely populated home systems.

So you have the same problem: You're bored shitless because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other.


They won't be forced to cram all of their dudes in to a handful of systems though, that's the entire point. To hold space it will have to be used. Plonking a bunch of people in to a system without actually using it won't allow them to retain sov & as an added bonus, it makes having massive coalitions detrimental to any war effort or skirmish due to the existence of TiDi.

Nullsec not shooting each other will cease to be a thing because holding vast areas of space will cease to be a thing.

You lost me. Are you saying that increasing population density won't increase the population density?

Dense "vibrant ecosystems" were proposed and supported. I interpret this to mean that instead of 10 dudes across 200 systems, you have 200 dudes across 10 systems. Which, when combined with standing fleets and so on will lead to a lot of people in system. Am I missing something here?

Dense population --> any attack results in tidi and 23 hour fights --> You're still bored shitless because 90% of nullsec refuses to shoot each other.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#490 - 2014-09-30 05:26:24 UTC
Good to see we've now shifted over to a TiDi discussion. Which wasn't mentioned, a glaring lack.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#491 - 2014-09-30 05:29:13 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Wrong. Anoms are 90 mil/hr per pilot while blitzing L4s are 110mil/hr+ per person.


I just said that.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

That being said, highsec income is too high. But the solution is nerfing it and not increasing nullsec income 10-folds to make PLEX 6-7B. Hyper-inflation is bad.
Which is why buffing anoms is not the way to go, missions are. They inject less isk, scale infinatly, can lock out carriers, will offer higher reward than high sec and are relatively easy for CCP to implement.
[/quote]
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#492 - 2014-09-30 05:34:23 UTC
Rowells wrote:

Thats why this isn't a single dimensional problem. Simply looking at sov and saying "thats your problem there" is not enough. The argument delved down into very specific area of debate in this thread and doesnt seem to be getting out any time soon.

Like for instance the idea to nerf logi. Throw that into the equation and, yes for the first portion of the fight its a tidi slugfest, but as people start dying it becomes less and less crowded until the losers have fled or died to the last man.

We need to keep in mind the other solutions and problems floating around while we disect one subject apart until it is a gory , unrecognizable mess on the table.

A good point, but lets take a look at the article in question. It raises 3 points (occupancy, npc stations, population density) and then provides an impressive list of supporters. Do all of those signatories also support a logi nerf? I suspect not. This is CCP we're dealing with. You handed them a mandate - it's anyone guess if they'll listen. But if they do, given that it is CCP, it's not exactly likely that they'll search out other proposals and heed them as well.

I take and criticize the proposal in a vacuum because it is presented in a vacuum. CCP won't see a logi nerf or any other proposed changes in the document in question.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#493 - 2014-09-30 05:39:31 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Rowells wrote:

Thats why this isn't a single dimensional problem. Simply looking at sov and saying "thats your problem there" is not enough. The argument delved down into very specific area of debate in this thread and doesnt seem to be getting out any time soon.

Like for instance the idea to nerf logi. Throw that into the equation and, yes for the first portion of the fight its a tidi slugfest, but as people start dying it becomes less and less crowded until the losers have fled or died to the last man.

We need to keep in mind the other solutions and problems floating around while we disect one subject apart until it is a gory , unrecognizable mess on the table.

A good point, but lets take a look at the article in question. It raises 3 points (occupancy, npc stations, population density) and then provides an impressive list of supporters. Do all of those signatories also support a logi nerf? I suspect not. This is CCP we're dealing with. You handed them a mandate - it's anyone guess if they'll listen. But if they do, given that it is CCP, it's not exactly likely that they'll search out other proposals and heed them as well.

I take and criticize the proposal in a vacuum because it is presented in a vacuum. CCP won't see a logi nerf or any other proposed changes in the document in question.


They can find it in the thread about the CSM meeting, it has been debated in that thread for that last month at least.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#494 - 2014-09-30 05:44:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Wrong. Anoms are 90 mil/hr per pilot while blitzing L4s are 110mil/hr+ per person.


I just said that.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

That being said, highsec income is too high. But the solution is nerfing it and not increasing nullsec income 10-folds to make PLEX 6-7B. Hyper-inflation is bad.
Which is why buffing anoms is not the way to go, missions are. They inject less isk, scale infinatly, can lock out carriers, will offer higher reward than high sec and are relatively easy for CCP to implement.

[/quote]

Of course 10/10 DED sites, etc... are way more than that.... C5 wormholes are 200 mil + an hour, etc.... No one is leaving nullsec to come run L4 missions....I see about 100 people in local while running SOE L4s, and most of them are career highsec folks. Obviously the people in null are finding ways to make isk already.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#495 - 2014-09-30 05:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Veers Belvar wrote:
Of course 10/10 DED sites, etc... are way more than that.... C5 wormholes are 200 mil + an hour, etc.... No one is leaving nullsec to come run L4 missions....I see about 100 people in local while running SOE L4s, and most of them are career highsec folks. Obviously the people in null are finding ways to make isk already.


The thing with high level DED sites is there is a very limited amount of them available at any given time & the chance for an escalation from an anomaly is extremely low, also add in that whether high value loot drops or not is entirely random. You can spend a few hours running the 4 parts of No Quarter & end up with nothing to show for it.

A lot of null people have highsec alts for mission running & incursions due to the fact that high levels of income in nullsec require a lot of money to begin with & there aren't enough worthwhile anomalies to go around.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Carl Stonewall
Valentine Drone Design
#496 - 2014-09-30 06:17:17 UTC
Okay so read the letter... first off:

Quote:
These entities who have signed this document are historically the most bitter of foes...


Quote:
We have put aside our many differences and brutal rivalries...


Let me just sit comfortably in my chair, wai..- WHAAAT!? Brutal enemies... bitter rivals... are you for real???

Goons and PL are effectively allies, and we all know goons wrote this precautionary damage control... they refuse to attack eachothers sov... is this supposed to be some kind of troll?? Bitter rivals my @£$ - you havent touched eachothers sov for.. what... 3 YEARS!?

Okay second... what will happen if these changes becomes reality? - Nothing... this proposal is only good for one group, and that is renters... thus indirectly good for Goons and PL (suprice suprice)

Think about the 3 points proposed

1. Occupancy sov.

Ok renters win, they use the systems... what would happen if some new entity tries to take some renter space... yep... you guessed it... 99 supers will land on their face GG... but then again... they can just rent from goon/PL empire and live in happy space harmony, yay... \o/

2. more NPC space...

Nice idea, but what does it have to do with broken 0.0? say a small alliance wants to take some space, deploying in NPC space... what happens when they take the space... yep... you guessed it 99 supers jump across the map in 5 min. and blow them up... but... again, they can just rent guys... no worries...

Basicly sim city general best bro coalition aka goons and PL are bored to death and want CCP to spawn content for them, cause they too scared to figh themselves, we all know it... even goons know it lol.

3. Player density

Again, what does this have to do with broken 0.0??? say this goes into effect, and all of goonswarm can rat in the same system... does anyone seriously believe that new alliances refusing to pay rent, wont get blabbed by 99 supers before you can say "blue donut"??

Its like these guys are deliberatly taking the cart before the horse... a new alliance will never even get to the point of taking advantage of occupancy sov or perks of density system... it will never get to that , they will still be forced to rent from you guys, cause if not... there is 99 supers sitting 70 jumps out, that will be on grid in 5 minutes

All this is, is a precautionary damage control by Goons and PL, luring other sov holders on by proposing generic sound good ideas, that really wont have any significant impact on 0.0 other than incentivising renting even further. Hopefully CCP nerfs capital mobility hard and adress the issue and not this hot air... for all i care make caps jump through gates, that would solve 0.0 before you can say "death to supers"
Emma Muutaras
State War Academy
Caldari State
#497 - 2014-09-30 06:43:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Emma Muutaras
while i do still support the idea i feel it needs to be if you don't use it you lose so if a system is being under used sov should drop and any station(s) in the system should be locked down as in no one can dock at these stations until the sov is claimed again.

also i would add if a system does drop sov said system should appear on scope news (i.e captains quarters of every player, and on the billboards) after all being a sov holder is kinda like being a government currently in power if that government collapsed its news worthy.

This hopefully will lead to conflict and content as corps and alliances try to get there foothold.

personally i would even have concord said out a eve wide mail to inform all players of a sov drop and the system is available for new claims.

as for destructible stations no just no i can see already that it will lead to massive amounts of players losing everything on the first day its in place and just quitting. it will be a case of needing enough supercaps to defend a station as a bench mark to enter null which i feel is kinda the opposite of what this idea is about.

lets be honest if they made stations destroyable tomorrow how long do you think it will be before a pl/n3 or cfc supercap fleet goes round just to burn stations off the map. my guess not very long and if i had to guess provi and catch would be the first targets of the new station burning as both groups (provi/hero) realistically cant come close (at the moment at least) to fight and defend against super caps.

i feel there should be some sort of safeguard in the new system to limit the size of rental empires cuz lets face most the space in eve now is rental space for the super powers and its got beyond a joke. im not saying ban rental empires but they need to be regulated better.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#498 - 2014-09-30 06:43:27 UTC
You know something needs fixing if enemies actually agree that it needs fixing. And yes, they're actually enemies, contrary to the opinion of some.

I'm a bit mixed on the NPC regions bit - it seems like a step away from diversifying regions. The one thing EVE lacks today in terms of space alone is diversity and can't help but agree that it'd make staging capitals into a region much easier were a power projection nerf to hit.

With this much buildup and claims of dedication, I'm actually slowly starting to hope that CCP amazes us with something awesome and tops the introduction of Wormholes. And, while at it, provide the catalyst to the greatest, biggest, meanest and most epic space-war this universe has ever seen.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#499 - 2014-09-30 07:57:21 UTC
I like how big boys come here en masse to say how they won Eve and it is boring and they need sth else to win at. I seem to recall more or less same people telling everybody on various occasions that Eve is a sandbox and in sandbox you make your own goals and wins so maybe they should take their own advice and try to win at something else than 'who can collect more cubic meters of space' competition?

Or maybe just frakk off and go play sth else. Isn't that another advice you love to shove in other people throats every time when somebody expresses doubts about Eve?

"We the people...", the hubis of that...

Invalid signature format
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#500 - 2014-09-30 08:02:37 UTC
Carl Stonewall wrote:
ughhhhhh wall of text


So why would we (and PL) completely ruin our diplomatic credibility by conning most of nullsec into putting their names on a proposal that would be completely against their interests?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar