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James315's article on Eve's harassment and ban policy

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voetius
Grundrisse
#41 - 2014-09-26 11:16:31 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Btw the article was only a 10 minute read. Have EVE attention spans fallen that much?


That's 18 words a second. Impressive :)
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#42 - 2014-09-26 12:25:34 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

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CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, “outing” of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
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ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#43 - 2014-09-26 12:26:57 UTC

Interesting read.

If even half of that article is true (and I suspect it's closer to all true) then im a little concerned. Banning someone for simply being in a chat channel is ludicrous.

CCP needs to take a long hard look at this and why they are bringing down the ban hammer on, essentially, bystanders.

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-09-26 13:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
{{Redacted deleted post. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}

Actually, people do care. People read the article, because they care about EVE, and its community. People want to have a discussion about this because they care. The people who don't care don't have to read it, but if you're not going to read it, don't even pretend you have the right to participate in a conversation about it. All you're doing is shitstirring. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because it's people like yourself that don't care who will be the reason EVE dies if it does.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-09-26 13:30:08 UTC
Mythrandier wrote:

Interesting read.

If even half of that article is true (and I suspect it's closer to all true) then im a little concerned. Banning someone for simply being in a chat channel is ludicrous.

CCP needs to take a long hard look at this and why they are bringing down the ban hammer on, essentially, bystanders.



I can't believe I actually read that trash article.

A cheering section for a such behavior doesn't qualify as "bystanders". Sorry to burst your bubble on that one - RL, that type of behavior has gotten people in some deep trouble - "accomplice", etc.

Check the TOS: You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

Now - who decides what qualifies as "other hate-mongering ..." and the like? CCP - final judge on the matter.

Another way to put it:

CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

In other words, we all agreed to let them decide which points are right and wrong and there's a lot of flexibility in how those rules are written and applied -- all at CCP's discretion.

Oh and TS is a conferencing tool so, as such, it is "real life". Then again, someone would have to complain, CCP would have to review it before any actions would be taken and, again, whatever actions might come about would be at their discretion.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#46 - 2014-09-26 13:31:27 UTC
Of all the posts attacking the article, precisely zero raise any substantial issue with the content.

On the other side we have people actually discussing how CCP should manage their game.

The core problem with EVE's playerbase, right there.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-09-26 13:34:17 UTC
Mocam wrote:


Now - who decides what qualifies as "other hate-mongering ..." and the like? CCP - final judge on the matter.


And therein lies the problem - when the qualifications change on a periodic basis with no objective clarity, it becomes nothing more than 'because we felt like it'. If you'd read the article, of course, you'd know this. But you haven't read it at all, just called it 'trash' and assumed what it was all about.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#48 - 2014-09-26 13:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
Mocam wrote:
I can't believe I actually read that trash article.
Let's test that theory.

Mocam wrote:
A cheering section for a such behavior doesn't qualify as "bystanders". Sorry to burst your bubble on that one - RL, that type of behavior has gotten people in some deep trouble - "accomplice", etc.
Wrong. Article talks about people idling in a chat they didn't read.

Mocam wrote:
Check the TOS: You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies
Irrelevant. You can debate whether it's harassment (though only pick the pro-hasrassment side if you enjoy losing), but there was never any trace of hate being generated towards anyone, certainly not against a minority which is what the quoted section is referring to.

Mocam wrote:
In other words, we all agreed to let them decide which points are right and wrong and there's a lot of flexibility in how those rules are written and applied -- all at CCP's discretion.
Which is precisely why it is being discussed - what would there be to talk about if the rules were crystal clear and set in stone?

Mocam wrote:
Oh and TS is a conferencing tool so, as such, it is "real life". Then again, someone would have to complain, CCP would have to review it before any actions would be taken and, again, whatever actions might come about would be at their discretion.
Wrong and wrong. TS is not real life as real identities are not even involved. It's real because it involves voice? EVE has voice too, is EVE RL now?
And as for CCP reviewing anything, they can't, the logs show nothing, which is why their stance has always been to disregard events outside the game, and as far as I know that stance hasn't officially changed - they're just making the odd exception now.


But good on you making up some objections to what you thought the article might say. More than most have bothered to do.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-09-26 13:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
tl;dr of what is going on can be found here.

I also question the moving of this thread to My EVE to die. There was a pinned thread on this in general for weeks, which was locked before all the facts came in.

{{Redacted rumor mongering. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}

F

Would you like to know more?
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-09-26 13:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiasa Kite
Mocam wrote:
I can't believe I actually read that trash article.

A cheering section for a such behavior doesn't qualify as "bystanders". Sorry to burst your bubble on that one - RL, that type of behavior has gotten people in some deep trouble - "accomplice", etc..

People who were invited to the bonus room channel had no part of the scam. They didn't spot the mark, nor interact with them, they didn't engage them on TS nor even enter the TS channel. They didn't even collect any in game assets. That's not "accomlice", that's "bystander".

Quote:
Check the TOS: You may not organize nor be a member of any corporation or group within EVE Online that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies

How is that relevant? Nothing in this discussion has even hinted that these scams have anything to do with real-world hate groups.

Quote:
CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

This has already been addressed. From page 1 of James 315's article:
"CCP has the right to do anything. They can ban every player in the game and change all the spaceships into marshmallows, if they choose. CCP also has the right to be rational and enforce the rules in a way that benefits their customers. I think they should exercise that right, don't you?"

No one is saying CCP doesn't have the right to do with their product as they choose. They are saying, however that it's in CCP's best interest to be clear and consistent with the rules they present to their customers.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Cheaplo Fauxchar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-09-26 14:19:33 UTC
Sigh.

Most people in EVE, are playing EVE. Most people in EVE don't engage in the activities James315 and others enjoy.

So why should I care, if someone played the game at the edge of simulated psychopathy and got themselves banned? Why should I defend them? Even if the ban was considerably "iffy".... why would I take the time? The majority of EVE players pretty much could care less about this ridiculous yet turgid vomit which makes up the high-sec-gank-squad community. Oh I'm sorry... the noble "content creators". Better?

Like I'd defend some self righteous ghetto famous game character because he got metaphorically pod killed by CCP? Try fitting some empathy modules before you do a bonus round. This is nothing more than the equivalent of the poor "content creators" losing a freighter. Except they took their behavior to the level where it cost them their account.

You stuck your head up in the air... sought in game fame, called attention to yourselves, and played edgy simulated sociopath games. Then made someone, who actually matters, unhappy. Thus... you got banned.

Nothing like watching simulated sociopaths whine about CCP doing some "content creation" and meta gaming of their own.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-09-26 14:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Remiel Pollard wrote:
but if you're not going to read it, don't even pretend you have the right to participate in


LOL:

Mocam wrote:

I can't believe I actually read that trash article.


And so did i! I actualy read that peace of crap.
Lots of tears and rumors.
A try to create FUD!

tl;dr?
My translation
"CCP might ban EVERYONE just because they want to..."
--> bull-feces!

GO!
Leave EvE, because CCP does not love you anymore and is unfair and evil and because CCP Falcon does not love you anymore. (only you have the right to play evil)
And you do not no why, because you where the nicest bunch of players.

specify meaning of pic:
nobody cares for you and your "friends".

Oh and why should anyone be fair to YOU when you dont want to play fair yourself?
P
meh, hypocrits

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#53 - 2014-09-26 14:30:47 UTC
Cheaplo Fauxchar wrote:
So why should I care, if someone played the game at the edge of simulated psychopathy and got themselves banned?
You probably shouldn't, but that's ok since that isn't what the article is about.

Cheaplo Fauxchar wrote:
This is nothing more than the equivalent of the poor "content creators" losing a freighter.
Literally unable to distinguish between reality and a game. Consider stepping away from the PC before you have an aneurysm over your pixel losses.
You might also consider that the other players in the game just like you are still other players in the game just like you even if they are on the 'other side'.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-09-26 14:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
La Rynx wrote:
Kneejerk emotional response.


You didn't read it, and he didn't read it, because people do care. I know neither of you read it because the things you are saying have been addressed in the article with no uncertainty. To read it is to understand the position we're coming from, which you clearly don't.

The people who read it care, they care about EVE, and its community as a whole. This has nothing to do with fairness in game, this has to do with where we, as players, stand with CCP. You can choose to ignore that, but don't pretend that you have a say in any of this if you do.

You want to be part of the discussion? Try starting from a more mature position here. Making light of the issue just because there are a bunch of people you don't like involved makes you little more than a shitstirring troll. Your translation is entirely wrong, of course, and that's another indication to me that you didn't read it.

There are carebears that have read it, because I've personally talked to them about it, who understand the implications in full. This is one of those times when the people who actually care about EVE need to stand together in solidarity. The people who don't care will ignore and troll and dismiss, and are invariably irrelevant as a result.

And I'm sorry, but the only tears I'm seeing around here are the kneejerk tears of ignorance, plebs from the anti-ganking echo-chamber of rant and rage. The rest of us are trying to have a serious discussion so if you don't mind, and have no stake in it, then kindly **** off.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-09-26 14:33:34 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Literally unable to distinguish between reality and a game.


The common affliction of those that don't care enough to have a stake in EVE, its community, or its existence.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-09-26 14:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Remiel Pollard wrote:
La Rynx wrote:
response.


You didn't read it,


I did.
You now call me a liar and other things.
You did not realise i think.
And then you wonder when people dont like you, call you names and more.

And the tears and hate are all on your site.
Big smile
But denial is where you are strong in.

And narcism.
You believe you are the core of the eve player base.

Remiel Pollard wrote:

The common affliction of those that don't care enough to have a stake in EVE, its community, or its existence.


Now its "who cares more for eve"?
You should rethink your position and you place in Eve.

Not New Eden and not the world is circling around you.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
Cheaplo Fauxchar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-09-26 14:41:03 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Cheaplo Fauxchar wrote:
So why should I care, if someone played the game at the edge of simulated psychopathy and got themselves banned?
You probably shouldn't, but that's ok since that isn't what the article is about.

Cheaplo Fauxchar wrote:
This is nothing more than the equivalent of the poor "content creators" losing a freighter.
Literally unable to distinguish between reality and a game. Consider stepping away from the PC before you have an aneurysm over your pixel losses.
You might also consider that the other players in the game just like you are still other players in the game just like you even if they are on the 'other side'.


I'm just fine my friend. I think the person with the bigger problem... is a guy like James315 who writes long articles about pixel politics on outside websites.

Talking about missing the point with ill defined reality... hmmm.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#58 - 2014-09-26 14:46:47 UTC
Cheaplo Fauxchar wrote:
I'm just fine my friend. I think the person with the bigger problem... is a guy like James315 who writes long articles about pixel politics on outside websites.

Talking about missing the point with ill defined reality... hmmm.
He's not writing about the pixels, he's writing about the game.

Spaceships... not real.
Game about spaceships... real.

You'll get it eventually. Maybe.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#59 - 2014-09-26 15:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

8. Use of profanity is prohibited.

The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.

12. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a support ticket under the Community & Forums Category.

23. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

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Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the wellbeing and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators.


Impressive amount of rules broken. Please stay civil, on-topic, and constructive.

Be aware that continued immature bickering, personal attacks, trolling, and derailing may lead to a thread lock or other further action.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#60 - 2014-09-26 17:43:36 UTC
This thread is locked.

If you are perceiving a problem with ISD behaviour on the forum or are disagreeing with the way (your) posts are being moderated, please feel free to read the CCP policies and follow the procedure found under the header 'Complaints'.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
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