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Ishtar(d)

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Author
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-09-23 13:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Danny John-Peter wrote:
In this thread.

People accuse people of not adapting even though they have.
People stick up for a ship that most of the community accepts is blatantly over-powered.
People accuse people of not adapting some more.

Circle repeats.



This.

TBH the fairest caveat I can come up with is remove drone assisting, at least for ishtar (maybe gurista). Domi big fat and slow and I'd let her be. She can't warp to point A, drop sentries and gfto like an asshat who gets their thrills from doing a massive foul smelling fart and leaving the area right away and laughs about it just lingering there. More hardcore could ruin Domi's day however, we can argue that is they'd like.

Here is why:


One of the drone lovers counters is jam us duh. Nice answer, which ship shall I jam in a small 10 man fleet.

I can assume the ishtar is not controlling them...I get 9 guesses now. Or maybe they are playing mind games and it is the ishtar I have written off...the plot thickens. remove drone assist....jam the ishtar and its now a game for all. Might be the ishtar's lucky day and my ecm is the first thing the sentries respond to blap my falcon/scorpion. Or not so lucky and those sentries are going for the fast tackle flying under the guns of the sentries.


But I am never been a fan of this mechanic and would like to see it go away. Or ccp could give high slot assist command to somebody. I am fair man and open minded here. CCP has this halfway done. They can remove drone assist to make it even.

Or they can give other high slots this option too as a peace offering and make it even. I just want the even part tbh...so that way when 5 ishtars lay their garde fart bombs....my fc (assuming has common of several guns) can just line up and knock em down. Vice the current fuster cluck you an get getting 10+ players to focus fire 10's of sentries in way vaguely defined as organized...if lucky lol.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2014-09-23 13:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
SmarncaV2 wrote:
So here's what just happened.
I was fighting a small frigate gang of bads with a navy augoror.

They've had 2 frigate logistics and had me hard tackled but luckily I manged to escape by killing hard tackle off me.
Then they decide to bring in an Ishtar. That ishtar dropped Bouncers reaproached the wormhole that the fight was happening on and he started to shoot me with his drones.
I could get close to the drones and orbit them at 500m so they wouldnt track me but that would get me killed because there would be too much stuff on me.
So I started burning away and at 90km I was still taking huge chunks of damage (12:41:53 Combat 641 from kazenasi sorani[C-DSD](Ishtar) - Bouncer II - Wrecks) so I was forced to warp off.

Before the ishtar people were saying that tier 3 battlecruisers were too strong but if I would pull 90km away from a tier 3 bc he wouldnt hit me because tracking even at that range would be terrible (on long range guns).

Please tell me how does one adapt in that situation so that I can go back and pew some more?


Fly further away. Bouncer range is between 80-100km, beyond that the damage and tracking is close to nulla. You were also fighting against 3 players (?) in 1 ship. No tactics work there anyways, because you need at least 2 people to pull that off (for instance, 1 frig that burns behind the Ishtar and provides you a warp in to the Ishtar.) If there wouldn't have been more than the Ishtar against you, you could have likely arrived at his drones and destroyed them. As far as I understand your report, the other ships' presence prevented you from doing that and the Ishtar was their then main DPS. Naturally, there's only so much you can do in 1 cruiser against several people.

Would it have been different, it the Ishtar was a Vagabond with its massive tank and close range DPS or Muninn with its excellent sniping capabilities, or a Cerberus which can shoot you with missiles from 120m+ away (albeit lower DPS, but from which you can't escape because it follows you around and is not stationary.) or an Eagle's sniping or a Deimos' close range DPS?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#23 - 2014-09-23 13:13:06 UTC
One day, people will learn that OP does not mean "unbeatable under any circumstance, ever" and that it is possible to outplay or outescalate someone using something overpowered without that constituting evidence against its strength.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#24 - 2014-09-23 13:19:23 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game?


Well just making drone control augmentors harder to fit ie take 1000pg or something would kill ishtars for big fleets right away.
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-09-23 13:33:24 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
One day, people will learn that OP does not mean "unbeatable under any circumstance, ever" and that it is possible to outplay or outescalate someone using something overpowered without that constituting evidence against its strength.


I know that everything is counterable. But seriously do you think that Ishtar is well balanced?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-09-23 13:35:11 UTC
I think you missed his point.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#27 - 2014-09-23 13:45:17 UTC
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
One day, people will learn that OP does not mean "unbeatable under any circumstance, ever" and that it is possible to outplay or outescalate someone using something overpowered without that constituting evidence against its strength.


I know that everything is counterable. But seriously do you think that Ishtar is well balanced?


Smarn missing the point.

As per the norm.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#28 - 2014-09-23 14:29:38 UTC
Just a crazy though.
The fact that most here want the Ishtar nerfed is a perfect indicator of the root cause of the problem, failure to adapt to the changing landscape of EVE. The Ishtar and it's resists, speed etc is not relevant, its soft squishy perfectly stationary in space drones are the real issue and to be honest they are easy to deal with by a simple adjustment in tactics. Perhaps running some level 4's with a domi or rattlesnake would be helpful here in developing tactics against a drone ship since the NPC AI has this pretty well figured out.

But for those who despise missions, or think they are worthless in planning tactics for a PvP engagement here are the basics. Sentries are small and have cruiser class EHP true but they also hang completely stationary in space, with a max effective range from as little 40k to about 100k depending on which sentries are deployed. Those I know in the game that have had to face these fleets took a page from the playbook of the NPC in lvl4 missions. They adapted tactics to a long range take out the drones doctrine. As the drones start to die the rest of the fleet warps in tackles and destroys the now increasingly vulnerable Ishtars and as the saying goes game over.

As a drones pilot I find it very interesting. Drones are finally being raised to the level of an effective primary weapons system and look at the response. Many crying for the nerf bat because there current tactics/doctrines have no real way of dealing with this new threat. So I say rise up, adapt to this new challenge and over come that is what this game is all about.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#29 - 2014-09-23 14:31:07 UTC
What did I just read.

Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-09-23 14:43:55 UTC
I Just think the ishtar needs to have 1 less mid slot and it would be fine
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-09-23 14:51:09 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
What did I just read.


I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp Big smile
Bechuanaland
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-09-23 15:26:40 UTC
With apologies for not exact numerics, solution to the Ishtar-problem is quite simple in my imagination. Merely, apply 'Gallente-ization' to drone bonuses, similar (but slightly more extremely) than Cerberus or Drake. Currently 'normal' Shield-Ishtar looks like:

Garde II: 625 DPS to ~50km
Curator II: 600 DPS to ~80km
Bouncer II: 550 DPS to ~110km
Warden II: 500 DPS to ~125km

It's very excessive! Normal ship can choose to do very great damage at short range, or to do shooting further with less damage; Ishtar can do both. Comparing Deimos, for example, it can do:

~ 650 DPS to very close with short-blaster shooting;
~ 550 DPS to ~25km with long-blaster shooting or short-railgun shooting;
~ 300 DPS to ~80km with long-railgun shooting; it can also not choose the damage types it's doing.

Perhaps, if we make "CreoDron" bonuses to drone damage, so that they are applying only to Gallente drone series, same Shield-Ishtar might have performance of:

Garde II: 625 DPS to ~50km
Curator II: 300 DPS to ~80km
Bouncer II: 275 DPS to ~110km
Warden II: 250 DPS to ~125km

Then, that is comparatively similar damage at range to similar large cruisers, having advantage of total choice in the damage type, advantage of tracking free from the movement of the ship, disadvantage of the drones being shot, disadvantage of enemy fighting 'from' your drones in Garde-case, since no longer it's possible for Ishtars to fight from 100km drone cloud as well as before.

Now, that is still very much damage at quite long range for Garde-case; and perhaps range should not be quite that great, but these are more problematic to use than other types, being why they are used not as much now in Fleet-situation. Also it's not taking the issue of Heavy Drone-Ishtar, but that is mostly more unexplored area, with some exceptions (PVE-Ishtar, and Gecko-Ishtar). Argument that Ishtar must have unique ability to do such damage at such range, is not good, in my opinion; no one suggests that Deimos and Zealot must be diverged, despite a Pulse-Zealot / Blaster-Deimos and Beam-Zealot / Railgun-Deimos being quite similar ships in many ways.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-09-23 15:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Push a mid to a low. Forces an armor tank and slows them down. At the same time, cut their CPU so that fitting DLAs is harder and reduce (or kill) the control range bonus - the aim being if you want super long range, you have to trade and lose substantial damage like everyone else needs to.

Their garde DPS really isnt a big deal, plenty of stuff can outrange that and counter it well.

Edit: Or make the tracking/optimal bonus just a tracking bonus. Not run those numbers yet though.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#34 - 2014-09-23 15:44:10 UTC
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
What did I just read.


I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp Big smile

i thought that as well...he didn't did he?.........Straight
Mag's
Azn Empire
#35 - 2014-09-23 15:53:49 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
What did I just read.


I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp Big smile

i thought that as well...he didn't did he?.........Straight
Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Big smile
Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#36 - 2014-09-23 16:07:28 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
What did I just read.


I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp Big smile

i thought that as well...he didn't did he?.........Straight
Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Big smile
Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Lol

love itBig smile
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-09-23 16:09:11 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
What did I just read.


I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp Big smile

i thought that as well...he didn't did he?.........Straight
Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Big smile
Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Lol


Good to see someone who *really* has their priorities right :D
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-09-23 16:14:20 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
There are numerous counters to and tactics against Ishtars. What these can't achieve, however, is a change in player attitude. So, as long as players play as they do, deal with it. If it's not Ishtars people can complain about, it's something else - still not acknowledging the real problems of the game and its players.

@afkalt It were, as stated, armor caps, ie. Archons, which are as useful to a Tengu fleet as a Thanatos is in a Slowcat fleet. The Tengus had their normal logis aka Scimis.


Remote doomsday were not a problem guys, the player getting wreck were just doing it wrong. Same thing for AoE domsday, players should of applied a different strategy to counter it.

The armor reps were usefull unless not a single one of the ships in the fleet ever went into armor. The buffer your armor + structure provide on a shield tanked ship can easyly mean staying on field long enough to catch reps from the scimitar instead of getting blown up. Keeping your armor full if you can is better than letting it get damaged and leave it as is every time a spike get you a bit into armor.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#39 - 2014-09-23 16:31:03 UTC
better reduce its speed again, rather than nerfing sentries.

these brawling armour ishtars are out of control and need to be stopped.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-09-23 16:40:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?

Are you insane or just incapable of logical reasoning?

Sure they need a balance pass, but they're goddamn strategic cruisers! Saying that they're OP relative to a HAC is like saying AFs are OP relative to t1 frigates. Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. If you want to talk balances issues then talk about how ships fare relative to their own class instead of pulling a random red herring out of your ass.

The ishtar sticks out like a sore thumb in relation to classical favorites like the Cerberus and the Vagabond because of the completely bonkers place sentry drones are in right now. I would like to point out for the record that this is an extension of the issue with drones and not with the ship itself; it just so happens to be geared towards using sentries particularly well, so while we can say that it's the ship, I'd say that as long as they're making it a drone boat (and they have to) then it's going to be facing this problem.
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