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Ishtar(d)

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SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-09-23 09:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: SmarncaV2
Please look at it!

It's currently the number one go ship for most of pvp corporations and alliances in Eve Online. That applies for small gang, sol and large cale warfare.

PS. Another 2.5% nerf wont help
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-09-23 09:31:17 UTC
Ishtar is now most used ship in game so cry for its nerf ... if nerf will come and ppl swap to another ship will you cry for its nerf too?
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-09-23 09:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: SmarncaV2
Zmikund wrote:
Ishtar is now most used ship in game so cry for its nerf ... if nerf will come and ppl swap to another ship will you cry for its nerf too?

Depends on wich ship that will be. I've never cryed before about any other ship that was a bit stronger then the others (like a drake, cane, tier 3 bc)

BUT! Cruiser tracking with battleship dps at 80km while kiting even further away at 2k m/s is a bit too strong dont you think?
Iain Cariaba
#4 - 2014-09-23 09:35:25 UTC
My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game?
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#5 - 2014-09-23 09:41:30 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game?


I will point out, Smarn is right, Ishtars are too flexible a platform, the have BS DPS, BS Projection, HAC Speed, HAC Buffer, HAC Sig and are not attached to there weapon system.

That is too many plus points for not enough minus points, and before you say "adapt or die" we already did, doesn't make them any less OP.
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-09-23 09:44:01 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game?


Like I said before. This is the first thing that I am really really mad at. A lot of people are complaining about Light missile kiters like Crows but I think that they are really easy to counter. However when you are dealing with Ishtars (solo) it's not so easy to counter them.
They have pretty much everything that one wants: utility highs, mids for ewar, speed, cap, t2 resist, good dps, insane range etc.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#7 - 2014-09-23 10:21:51 UTC
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-09-23 10:38:50 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?

no
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#9 - 2014-09-23 10:48:20 UTC
Ishtars didn't get enough of a nerf, but it's not just the Ishtars. It's the sentries, too.

Ishtars need the other half of that nerf that was held back because :release cycle:, sentries need a thorough evaluation and carriers need to lose the ability to use sentries at all.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2014-09-23 11:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?

no


Then how is the Ishtar overpowered if it gets easily driven off of the field by another ship. By my understanding, a ship that drives a strong ship off of the battlefield is even stronger.

Rail-Tengus boast massive range, massive HP, considerable resistances, significant speed, significant tracking and low signature. The Ishtar is inferior in all the departments, except for the range as long as the targets stay away from the drones. The Ishtar might also be faster than the Tengus. but its drones are stationary and Tengus can easily drive Ishtars out and close in on drones so that they can't track anymore, and destroy them to force Isthars to drop new drones which still can't destroy a properly flown Tengu fleet.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#11 - 2014-09-23 11:10:22 UTC
According to EVE Kill the number one pilot in EVE is Concord Police Captain,
He kills mostly destroyers, followed by Battle Cruisers and no, he doesn't fly an Ishtar.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#12 - 2014-09-23 11:41:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
SmarncaV2 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?

no


Then how is the Ishtar overpowered if it gets easily driven off of the field by another ship. By my understanding, a ship that drives a strong ship off of the battlefield is even stronger.

Rail-Tengus boast massive range, massive HP, considerable resistances, significant speed, significant tracking and low signature. The Ishtar is inferior in all the departments, except for the range as long as the targets stay away from the drones. The Ishtar might also be faster than the Tengus. but its drones are stationary and Tengus can easily drive Ishtars out and close in on drones so that they can't track anymore, and destroy them to force Isthars to drop new drones which still can't destroy a properly flown Tengu fleet.


So TIIIs beat HACs?

Non shocker?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-09-23 11:47:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?


What is this strange witchcraft you call 'Tactics'? And which station sells the module for it?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2014-09-23 11:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Danny John-Peter wrote:

So TIIIs beat HACs?

Non shocker?


Exactly. A general purpose vessel, which is meant to fill many roles, beats a vessel that is specialized in 1 thing and while it does this 1 thing. Hence, I don't see any overpoweredness in the Ishtar (anymore).

Besides, the popularity of the Ishtar is also due to the current meta nature of the game of mass blobbing people: With an Ishtar you can still fight someone who's got number superiority over you and don't need to flee or accept complete obliteration. The Ishtar, while very strong, and it's popularity is only the symptom of the rotten state of the game and its players, especially certain entities.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
What is this strange witchcraft you call 'Tactics'? And which station sells the module for it?


Good, at least one person here does not cry for the nerf bat when they can't win with standard tactics against a strong opponent and sees what's necessary to beat it. There's still hope.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-09-23 12:00:26 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:

So TIIIs beat HACs?

Non shocker?


Exactly. A general purpose vessel, which is meant to fill many roles, beats a vessel that is specialized in 1 thing and while it does this 1 thing. Hence, I don't see any overpoweredness in the Ishtar (anymore).

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
What is this strange witchcraft you call 'Tactics'? And which station sells the module for it?


Good, at least one person her does not cry for the nerf bat when they can't win with standard tactics against a strong opponent and sees what's necessary to beat it. There's still hope.


I just finished training for ishtar :D But don't worry, I'm not training 'Moan' to V for when someone destroys my supposedly OP ship...
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#16 - 2014-09-23 12:25:45 UTC
In this thread.

People accuse people of not adapting even though they have.
People stick up for a ship that most of the community accepts is blatantly over-powered.
People accuse people of not adapting some more.

Circle repeats.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-09-23 12:27:07 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field.

Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?



T3s and caps beating ishtars isn't exactly a glowing example of them not being massively broken.




Iain Cariaba wrote:
My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game?


At the point where the counter to ishtars isn't bigger blob of ishtars/massive upshipping. Ishtars are unreasonably difficult to counter compared to every other ship out there once they pass a certain mass - let's call it 20 or so.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#18 - 2014-09-23 12:38:10 UTC
There are numerous counters to and tactics against Ishtars. What these can't achieve, however, is a change in player attitude. So, as long as players play as they do, deal with it. If it's not Ishtars people can complain about, it's something else - still not acknowledging the real problems of the game and its players.

@afkalt It were, as stated, armor caps, ie. Archons, which are as useful to a Tengu fleet as a Thanatos is in a Slowcat fleet. The Tengus had their normal logis aka Scimis.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
SmarncaV2
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-09-23 12:50:56 UTC
So here's what just happened.
I was fighting a small frigate gang of bads with a navy augoror.

They've had 2 frigate logistics and had me hard tackled but luckily I manged to escape by killing hard tackle off me.
Then they decide to bring in an Ishtar. That ishtar dropped Bouncers reaproached the wormhole that the fight was happening on and he started to shoot me with his drones.
I could get close to the drones and orbit them at 500m so they wouldnt track me but that would get me killed because there would be too much stuff on me.
So I started burning away and at 90km I was still taking huge chunks of damage (12:41:53 Combat 641 from kazenasi sorani[C-DSD](Ishtar) - Bouncer II - Wrecks) so I was forced to warp off.

Before the ishtar people were saying that tier 3 battlecruisers were too strong but if I would pull 90km away from a tier 3 bc he wouldnt hit me because tracking even at that range would be terrible (on long range guns).

Please tell me how does one adapt in that situation so that I can go back and pew some more?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2014-09-23 12:53:54 UTC
I know, but they'll still add serious pressure to the enemy fleet.

The trouble with the counters is they stop being reasonable at fleets of about 20+

For example - Kill the drones: Small gang, sure. kill 100 sentries....less fine.


It's been thought long and hard about, there is very, very little can be done that is a reasonable counter - especially when considering their peer group of other hacs. They have too much going for them, all in one fit. Too much cap, too much range, too much projection, too much mobility for the damage and its projection.

They are absolutely in a league of their own - heck it's something that most of the eve community actually agrees on - that's rare indeed! They trample over far too many areas and other ship roles.
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