These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
9 Pages123Next pageLast page
 

PvE C1 to C4

First post
Author
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-09-22 11:23:37 UTC
As promised some numbers for C1 to C4 wormholes. I'm semi limiting info as I don't want it to turn in to a slap fight of "ooh you can earn more if you do this or its optimal to do it this way" you want to do that fine run your own tests send me the numbers.

For C1 to C3 I used a tengu with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.
C4 was done with a paladin with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.

I did this on my own to get the times, potentially running in a group is better and I have done that for C1 to C4 although I've not got the go ahead to release that.

Each site was run 10 times to give a average of nano ribbons and there is 2 numbers per site. the first is teh average off all 10 sites the second I ignored the lowest and highest 2 nano ribbon drops then took a average of the middle 6 numbers (to try and remove some of the spikeiness of randon drops.

sites were ran and travel time included along with time taken to salvage (max salvager skills used).

This was a pure run sites as fast as possible done on sisi in a no effects system.

Things not taken in to account.

scanning the wormhole. Scouting. Checking static. Time taken to haul stuff out to sell.

These factors will potentially add up to lower the income alot espeically if you take in to acount alt scouts, running sites in the statics etc. So numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hvNEjGFjPPGEXeOqSS4O_Zm9BokSu0bz6DnhD5KDisk/edit?usp=sharing


Several things of note.

C1 site perimeter camp I got a crazy amount of nanos which is why the isk from that site is so high (double the other sites) I really need to rerun this site 10 times when I get time. That one site pulls C1 space up above C2 space. without that site C1 and C2 is basically same income.

I only did each site 10 times, chatting to our maths god in NoHo he thinks i should do them 100 times atleast to get a significant sample size which aint going to happen. So keep in mind my sample size is low which may affect things.

The percentage income from nano ribbons is also listed so you get a idea of how much that will affect sites.

Yes you can potentially make more but this was on my own.

I'd like to give a huge thanks to people who helped me collect this info as it really help speed things up. This combined with the testing in small groups (up to 3 people) took close to 300 hours. I was up at 4 in the morning doing the last bit of maths for C4 sites the day I left for Iceland. So it would be ready for the summit.

As said if people want to argue I'll happily listen as long as they have the proof to back it up.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2014-09-22 11:42:28 UTC
Interesting results, im surprised C4 income isn't that much higher than C3, the current state of C2 space looks depressing given the massive difference between it and C3 space and C1 income being higher. Did you experiment what the lowest form of ship could run each site?

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

#3 - 2014-09-22 11:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Moloney
Thanks corbexx for the effort.

The only problem is that the data is useless.

1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market.
2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked)
3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways
4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place....
Deep Space Engineering
#4 - 2014-09-22 11:46:49 UTC
corbexx wrote:
As promised some numbers for C1 to C4 wormholes. I'm semi limiting info as I don't want it to turn in to a slap fight of "ooh you can earn more if you do this or its optimal to do it this way" you want to do that fine run your own tests send me the numbers.

For C1 to C3 I used a tengu with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.
C4 was done with a paladin with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.


The quality of ship and level of skills differ a lot and will have a great inpact on how fast things are run as well though.
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2014-09-22 11:54:50 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
Interesting results, im surprised C4 income isn't that much higher than C3, the current state of C2 space looks depressing given the massive difference between it and C3 space and C1 income being higher. Did you experiment what the lowest form of ship could run each site?


The c4 to c3 isk comparison is greater if you cheery pick which sites you do. which people will almost certainly do if they are running sites in there static.

I didn't experiment with lowest ship. for a couple reasons mainly the fact that i had to have devs move me and ships around on sisi which can take awhile. So didn't want to bother them as much.
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-09-22 11:58:10 UTC
Moloney wrote:
Thanks corbexx for the effort.

The only problem is that the data is useless.

1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market.
2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked)
3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways
4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place....


Its hardly useless its just a theoretical amount a single person can make. is only so many factors i can take in to account and getting ganked is sure as hell one I can't factor in reliably.

however if you want to make a more useful one please run your stuff and let me know what figures you get i'll happily pass it all on for you.
#7 - 2014-09-22 11:58:23 UTC
Considering that the number of sites in a system is limited I think it would be nice if you would add the ISK per site to that table.

Regarding accuracy: Shouldn't CCP be able to give you exact numbers for the chance of loot drops for each ship?
That way you could calculate exactly how much ISK a site will return on average.
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-09-22 12:01:53 UTC
Ruffio Sepico wrote:
corbexx wrote:
As promised some numbers for C1 to C4 wormholes. I'm semi limiting info as I don't want it to turn in to a slap fight of "ooh you can earn more if you do this or its optimal to do it this way" you want to do that fine run your own tests send me the numbers.

For C1 to C3 I used a tengu with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.
C4 was done with a paladin with 3 faction damage mods and max skills.


The quality of ship and level of skills differ a lot and will have a great inpact on how fast things are run as well though.



Aye most definetly. these numbers are probably on the high side a newbie in a drake with skills at 4 will probably take twice as long as a max skilled tengu with 3 facton bcu's, maybe if i get time I'll run some of these in a drake or something with no faction mods to give a comparison. But that will have to wait till after I've done the pos research and summit minutes, so wont be soon if i even get around to it.
#9 - 2014-09-22 12:05:20 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Moloney wrote:
Thanks corbexx for the effort.

The only problem is that the data is useless.

1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market.
2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked)
3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways
4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place....


Its hardly useless its just a theoretical amount a single person can make. is only so many factors i can take in to account and getting ganked is sure as hell one I can't factor in reliably.

however if you want to make a more useful one please run your stuff and let me know what figures you get i'll happily pass it all on for you.


No insult intended, as stated, thank you for the time and effort. The problem is that miss information is worse than no information.

The sample and test case does not come close to realty. Sorry.
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2014-09-22 12:06:00 UTC
Alice Johansen wrote:
Considering that the number of sites in a system is limited I think it would be nice if you would add the ISK per site to that table.

Regarding accuracy: Shouldn't CCP be able to give you exact numbers for the chance of loot drops for each ship?
That way you could calculate exactly how much ISK a site will return on average.


I have isk per site on the other spread sheet but its dependant alot on average nano drop. One of the reasons I did a simplified sheet for general, is that if I incude isk per site you can work out how long it took and then you get more "ooh you are running sites to fast" or "I can run sites much faster"


Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-09-22 12:06:59 UTC
Moloney wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Moloney wrote:
Thanks corbexx for the effort.

The only problem is that the data is useless.

1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market.
2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked)
3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways
4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place....


Its hardly useless its just a theoretical amount a single person can make. is only so many factors i can take in to account and getting ganked is sure as hell one I can't factor in reliably.

however if you want to make a more useful one please run your stuff and let me know what figures you get i'll happily pass it all on for you.


No insult intended, as stated, thank you for the time and effort. The problem is that miss information is worse than no information.

The sample and test case does not come close to realty. Sorry.


Thats fine please do your own testing send me it I'll pass it on.
Illusion of Solitude
#12 - 2014-09-22 12:26:19 UTC
Thank you for all of your efforts, sure the other variables will reduce income greatly, but they are consistent across the whole range of lower class wormholes, so your findings are the Best case scenario, and CCP will need to take into account that they are probably 3 to 4 times higher than will actually be earned by players. (Security, scouting,shipping, selling etc all take time)

This clearly shows that income in low class wormholes for sleeper killing PVE is inferior to many activities in "safe" known space.

Finally some hard baselines for CCP to boost from.

Once again, thank you.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

#13 - 2014-09-22 12:41:42 UTC
Moloney wrote:
The only problem is that the data is useless.

It's not useless.
Obviously those numbers aren't super accurate, but it's something that you can show to CCP and tell them "look, that's what I could earn in a best case scenario and still those numbers appear to be way too low".

For doing the actual rebalancing I'm sure CCP will be able to come up with more accurate numbers based on their own data.
Official Winners Of Takeshi's Castle
#14 - 2014-09-22 12:46:02 UTC
Thanks for your hard work Corbexx, much appreciated.

I would like future PVE changes to consider the impact of running solo vs in groups (in lower classes). I assume most people end up running solo as it is more profitable, but this runs against the idea of promoting group play in wormholes which IMO is a key driver in encouraging corporation growth & number of ppl out in wspace (aka content). Personally, i'd like C4 (and poss C3) to have some sites that are viable to run as a group without heavily penalising your income. Obviously there needs to be a balance between solo and group play, but it currently feels like a big divide between C1-C4 (solo) and C5-C6 (group).
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-09-22 12:47:57 UTC
Confirming C3 average income is exactly as in the spreadsheet based on literally hundreds and hundreds of C3s ran.

In C4s I've reached considerably higher figures, and heard others refer to the same approx. 200mil/hr.

Tengu is probably not ideal for C1-C2s due to sleeper ship size, but In any case, these figures are definitely in the right ballpark and the most important thing to get from them is the issue with C1 and C2 space. It's not any safer to run C2s than it is to run higher class sites, PVE surely is easier but risks remain the same.

These holes should be lucrative to newcomers to w-space, but in current EVE it's difficult to even fart and not make more isk/hr.




Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2014-09-22 12:56:14 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:
Thanks for your hard work Corbexx, much appreciated.

I would like future PVE changes to consider the impact of running solo vs in groups (in lower classes). I assume most people end up running solo as it is more profitable, but this runs against the idea of promoting group play in wormholes which IMO is a key driver in encouraging corporation growth & number of ppl out in wspace (aka content). Personally, i'd like C4 (and poss C3) to have some sites that are viable to run as a group without heavily penalising your income. Obviously there needs to be a balance between solo and group play, but it currently feels like a big divide between C1-C4 (solo) and C5-C6 (group).



I totally agree here. More group activety would help alot.
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2014-09-22 13:00:17 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Confirming C3 average income is exactly as in the spreadsheet based on literally hundreds and hundreds of C3s ran.

In C4s I've reached considerably higher figures, and heard others refer to the same approx. 200mil/hr.

Tengu is probably not ideal for C1-C2s due to sleeper ship size, but In any case, these figures are definitely in the right ballpark and the most important thing to get from them is the issue with C1 and C2 space. It's not any safer to run C2s than it is to run higher class sites, PVE surely is easier but risks remain the same.

These holes should be lucrative to newcomers to w-space, but in current EVE it's difficult to even fart and not make more isk/hr.




the average income for C4 is higher with frontier barracks (which is by far the best site to do) I got 170mill/hour and with a couple people working together i've hit over 200mill/hour. But i can see experinced people getting more than me.

#18 - 2014-09-22 13:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nox52
I don't suppose you have or are willing to put up the c5 and c6 site income just to put the disparity in perspective?

The numbers feel about right from my experience. The short summary is that c1 and c2 space income via sites is useless looking at just your numbers. Factor in the scanning, securing, hauling and so on and it becomes damn right worthless. Bob forbid you try to share with someone else (like a newbie might do) or get ganked, it just becomes a stupid proposition comparing alternative Hs means of income.


You're starting to look better at the C3 and C4 stage but really if you consider the work you have to do for them and the real risk of getting ganked it doesn't look too flash hot now does it? What's l4 income? 100 mil an hour or so?

And you wonder why there aren't more people in low class whs...
Pandemic Legion
#19 - 2014-09-22 13:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Jester
Moloney wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Moloney wrote:
Thanks corbexx for the effort.

The only problem is that the data is useless.

1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market.
2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked)
3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways
4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place....


Its hardly useless its just a theoretical amount a single person can make. is only so many factors i can take in to account and getting ganked is sure as hell one I can't factor in reliably.

however if you want to make a more useful one please run your stuff and let me know what figures you get i'll happily pass it all on for you.


No insult intended, as stated, thank you for the time and effort. The problem is that miss information is worse than no information.

The sample and test case does not come close to realty. Sorry.


Holy **** just how many extra chromosomes do you have? If you think it's misinformation, then go fix it. Run your own tests and tell us the numbers that you think are correct. If you aren't going to do that then accept Corbexx's numbers. Tbh you're probably too busy whining to do anything though...

> 1. You have been paid nothing in the time interval you tested. I.e. you can still be ganked on the way to market.

How dumb are you if you get ganked on the way to the market? I bet you're one of those 80b shuttle loses that pop up. Just use Red Frog or don't be dumb and do it in a T3.

> 2. You did this in a vacuum. (Sisi, no chance of being ganked)

Your only point with a real semblance of intelligence. Use scouts to greatly minimize the risk.

> 3. Most corporations in a c4 do not run a single character so any payment will be split 2 or more ways

If the isk is less when split with two people, then maybe you should run them solo instead as obiously having the second person isn't offering any benefit.

> 4. Applies mostly after Hyperion... 10 sites would have to spawn in the first place.

>Applies mostly after Hyperion

mfw that's the patch we're on and the data is actually applicable...

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

Deep Space Engineering
#20 - 2014-09-22 13:38:52 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Jez Amatin wrote:
Thanks for your hard work Corbexx, much appreciated.

I would like future PVE changes to consider the impact of running solo vs in groups (in lower classes). I assume most people end up running solo as it is more profitable, but this runs against the idea of promoting group play in wormholes which IMO is a key driver in encouraging corporation growth & number of ppl out in wspace (aka content). Personally, i'd like C4 (and poss C3) to have some sites that are viable to run as a group without heavily penalising your income. Obviously there needs to be a balance between solo and group play, but it currently feels like a big divide between C1-C4 (solo) and C5-C6 (group).



I totally agree here. More group activety would help alot.


Remember though, wh space is nice for a group of players to explore together, but not so much to include new people into the group once there. Due to the klunky POS's and access rights and so on. More/new better group content is all nice, but be able to facilitate more/bigger groups just as much I think.

Maybe a bit off topic, but from talking to several I came across over the years in lower end of wspace. People start out with a group of players, some go inactive and leave the game, and they have a hard time replace them due to fear risk thefts and so on.
9 Pages123Next pageLast page
Forum Jump