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CCP - Please Remove SOV - (Structures & Timers) aka "Training Wheels"

First post
Author
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#161 - 2014-08-01 18:10:37 UTC
Removed a troll post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Syd Unknown
#162 - 2014-08-02 11:25:42 UTC
There is only 1 fix for null-sec: FW SOV mechanics, but then on bigger scale.
Complexes should be: Medium, Large and X-Large (for capitals)

PRO's:

1. in FW SOV mechanics there are no timers.
2. You can still use your supers to bash the I-Hub once vulnerable
3. If people are not defending their system actively even small Alliances can make it vulnerable.
4. There will be a lot of traffic in 0.0 to run the Complexes for either offensive or defensive plexing.

This will bring a lot of pvp in space. ( and no you wont be able to run the plexes in stabbed frigates.) You will at least need a cruiser sized or a very well fitted dessie for the Medium Complexes, The Larges and X-Larges will need Cruisers and up.

People wont be farming for LP, instead both offensive and defensive should get a preset amount of isk out of the Alliance wallet that is determined by the alliance itself. Pilots that are NOT in an Alliance can NOT run the complexes. That way the Alliance can reward the pilots that are working for them to get SOV. The more SOV an Alliance would have the more they would have to pay to their defending pilots. So holding more SOV would mean more costs. This would mean Small Alliances have a chance too at a smaller scale.

Pilots will get paid for defending and offending systems and you dont need SRP anymore since people can pay for their ships with the isk made from the SOV war.
The better they are at PVP and the more systems they take the more Isk the pilots make.
That way pilots can make is fighting for SOV.
Making isk with PVP. Ideal world.
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2014-08-02 19:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Snot Shot
This is the OP: First Page Post has been Updated with TLDR Plus Extras Blink

I blogged this a year ago so I thought I would take a look at it a year later, make some tweaks to it, and vomit it back out onto the forums. 0.0 is supposed to be a sandbox, so why did CCP add SOV to it making it a slab of concrete?

CCP can you please get rid of SOV. (TCUs, SBUs, Timers, and Docking rights.)

So let’s think about this for a few minutes. Null Sec with a clean SOV slate.…… No more grinding structures, ping ponging timers, alarm clocking, and any other horrendous nightmares you can think of from the last 10 years’ experience. You can change/impact the Null Sec landscape every time you log in and not be subjected to weeks of structures, timers, camps, and blobs… CCP wouldn’t be faced with trying to fix something that’s always been “broken”, to make something else that can be “gamed by the few” and gridlocked again like it is now. They can simply turn it off……..SOV all across 0.0 drops…..and the players take control over the new sandbox….

So what are some of the outcomes to doing this…………SOV goes away effectively turning Null Sec back into the “Lawless Space” it’s always been advertised as…………..Station and Out Post docking doors are flung wide open across all of Null Sec and 10 years of trapped assets are unlocked for thousands of current, and past, pilots to use again. Pilots are logging in by the thousands and Null Sec springs back to life.

• Alliances are no longer pinned under the weight of coalitions in order to “keep their space”………..they simply need to live in, and actively defend it for it to be theirs.

• Local and regional politics would develop with leaders/war lord’s etc. coming out of the wood works to govern with limited power to hold over players’ heads.

• Back room deals can be made by the lowest level grunt each day which could drastically impact what happens throughout a constellation or region……stronger relationships are born.

• Contracts mechanics are developed to support regional trade and local deals.

• Ninja living in Null Sec could be done by anyone who wanted to take the risk alone, in Corps, Alliances by choice while others hunted them.

• Grass roots market HUBs and industry in Null Sec would grow to amazing size and use all over null sec….Jita size HUBs policed by Mercs etc………. Mos Isley Space Station etc…

• And so many other opportunities for player driven content would come to life all around 0.0 as players were free to move where they wanted if they were willing to take the risk and develop the relationships..

So no SOV………all the stations and out posts are free ported……….now what? Where can I plant my Alliance flag? What will it be?........my thoughts a “Alliance Capital Station”……destructible……

Alliance Capital Station - Each Alliance can launch one “Capital Station” (Per Region?) which is destructible. Mechanics of how it’s destructible, timers, and what drops is something CCP/Players can toy with.

Thoughts/options that CCP can build on to make it “special”:

• “Capital Stations” allow for Super Carriers to dock
• Docking rights can be set in Capital Stations unlike the local free ported stations
• Super Carrier Construction Upgrade Slots to be added to the Capital Station
• Anchorable mods on the station, large guns, webs, etc. so gunners can use them and station can defend itself like a POS.
• Industry upgrades can be added, taxes collected, etc.
• It takes an Alliance to up keep it….they take fuel, food, dancers, janitors, cows, booze, drugs, etc to operate/maintain…or it goes off line..
• Walking in station upgrades, Licenses granted for such things as Casinos, bars, shops etc..only available at Alliance Capital Stations…the more come the more isk you make

Embassy’s – (Its already going on so why not make it official) An Alliance holding a Region with a Capital Station, can secure an “Embassy” in a Free-Ported station in each of the Constellations within the Region held. The benefits of such an Embassy can be decided as this mechanics are hammered out. Maybe some sort of benefits to anyone using the station for trade, industry, or whatever which in turn allows the Alliance to tax the goings on in that station etc.

So what about Jump Bridges, Cyno Gens, Jammers, CSAAs, and all the other SOV driven items? Without getting to f***ing complicated, I’m pretty sure most of you guys can figure out how to tie those back into the system without turning 0.0 into the same mess it’s in now.

Let’s face it, CCP is nowhere near figuring out how to “fix” current Null Sec “SOV” mechanics because there is no way to fix it…….shut it down, put in place mechanics that already exist (stations) and with a few tweaks we could be up and running with a new and fresh Null Sec which will thrive for years to come…

Anyways…….It’s an idea. Build off it or adjust as you think will work better but the simpler the idea more apt it’s going to get implemented by CCP quicker. The folks that keep coming up with these complicated and intricate ways to “fix” it just stagnate the process and to be honest, I think that’s why you do it so stfu. The above details, or some iteration of it, will give new players a chance to make it in this game and not simply be a puppet.

Anywhoo……….flame away and cry like babies about “already having NPC space” and silly crap like that. This is what needs to happen for EVE to survive….

Fly it like you stole it!!!
(RIP TN)

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2014-08-02 19:59:10 UTC
TLDR Tie in Post Below:

I think dropping ACS's in Region after Region if the CFC wants to do it would be fine. If they have the isk to do it and the man power to defend it then god bless. The exposure to that tactic is that the space surrounding it and its stations are accessible to anyone and so the Alliance "owning" the Region actually needs to farm/police/and defend the space to get the maximum use out of it or anyone can farm their fields while they are logged off for weeks playing Tanks or Dota and other **** that these AFK Alliances do with all this empty space they control behind locked and abandoned stations, millions of HP, and weeks of timers.

While you aren't playing EVE others could be and they could be making isk because you're to lazy to log in and form a defense fleet, BLOPs fleet, or hot drop of any kind.

I'll post some of my ideas that I had while discussing options in Mannys thread so you can see where I think this could go in relation to what it would take to control a region with a ACS and the associated commitments:

But where is my Alliance name on the EVE map!!! Alliance Capital Stations (ACS) - Each Alliance can launch only one “Capital Station”. When you anchor the ACS you have to name it and the name can never be changed unless Alliance is disbanded (ownership drops) or it’s destroyed and a new one put up. I see these as the “Castle Blacks” or PL’s “The Sphere” stronghold of EVE driving the narrative and actual history for the future books and stories of EVE to come.

Obviously the current size of some Alliances could be too big for pilots to use just one Region or they want to “own” two or more Regions. Welp they’d need to develop new Alliances and CEOs to drop Alliance Cap Stations in more Regions and this would add stress to the power dynamic and diplomatic scene that EVE needs so much. New Alliance leaders would actually matter a lot more than they do these days and when directors decide to press the "button" on an Alliance Cap Station it could be a little more interesting than just mopping up SOV structures with Super fleets. Anyways, this stacks the house of cards a lot higher which creates content.

It takes an Alliance to up keep it….they take fuel, ammo, food, dancers, janitors, cows, booze, drugs, etc. to operate/maintain…or it goes off line. It takes the ACS Construction Skill book, ACS Station Management Skill Book, BPO, and construction costs which could rival that of what it currently costs to build a Titan. ACS Upgrade Mod Construction Skill Books and BPOs, ACS Regional Embassy Upgrade Mod Construction Skill Books and BPOs, Upgrade Mod Construction costs, and the cost to up keep the ACS would provide the significant isk sinks and industrial activity needed, just like current sov bills do. It might take a little while to actually see many of these out there in null sec but talk about an Alliance goal to be achieved and the pride pilots would have once they got one up.

ACS Regional Embassy Station Upgrade Mods could be fitted to provide bonuses to all open stations in your Region selected as Embassy’s and POS’s anchored in the Region for specific things which would draw players to your Region because others don’t have that Mod fitted to their ACS. Bonuses are based on your standings with the ACS owner. Your ACS has a SC construction Upgrade fitted? Well guess where all the SC builders could headed with their CSAAs and POS’s…. Maybe you can only fit 4 on your ACS so your Region could be pretty well known for select bonuses.

Embassy’s – (Its already going on so why not make it official) An Alliance holding a Region with a ACS, can secure an “Embassy” in a Regional station or outpost in each of the Constellations within the Region held. The additional benefits aside from what the ACS supplies an Embassy can be decided as this mechanics are hammered out. Maybe some sort of benefits to anyone using the station for trade, industry, or whatever which in turn allows the Alliance to tax the goings on in that station etc.

The ACS is destructible. Mechanics of how it’s destructible, timers…..yes I said “timers”, and what drops is something CCP/Players can toy with. If we’re going to have timers we should probably have them on **** that matters like POS’s and these things. These could be your B-R situations of the future. Hire PL to attack of defend one of these things.

If the Region has an Alliance Cap Station, new comers to the area could negotiate special "SOV" standings with the owner which would allow them to anchor specific system upgrades the ACS doesn’t provide or they can simply ninja live without the standings and upgrades if they don't want to be under the rental "thumb" of any Alliance and are willing to take the risk living there. Maybe the levels of “SOV” standings do things like expand the docking radius of the Regions open stations and outposts to those with them adding a layer of protection.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2014-08-05 14:02:27 UTC
Syd Unknown wrote:
There is only 1 fix for null-sec: FW SOV mechanics, but then on bigger scale.
Complexes should be: Medium, Large and X-Large (for capitals)

PRO's:

1. in FW SOV mechanics there are no timers.
2. You can still use your supers to bash the I-Hub once vulnerable
3. If people are not defending their system actively even small Alliances can make it vulnerable.
4. There will be a lot of traffic in 0.0 to run the Complexes for either offensive or defensive plexing.

This will bring a lot of pvp in space. ( and no you wont be able to run the plexes in stabbed frigates.) You will at least need a cruiser sized or a very well fitted dessie for the Medium Complexes, The Larges and X-Larges will need Cruisers and up.

People wont be farming for LP, instead both offensive and defensive should get a preset amount of isk out of the Alliance wallet that is determined by the alliance itself. Pilots that are NOT in an Alliance can NOT run the complexes. That way the Alliance can reward the pilots that are working for them to get SOV. The more SOV an Alliance would have the more they would have to pay to their defending pilots. So holding more SOV would mean more costs. This would mean Small Alliances have a chance too at a smaller scale.

Pilots will get paid for defending and offending systems and you dont need SRP anymore since people can pay for their ships with the isk made from the SOV war.
The better they are at PVP and the more systems they take the more Isk the pilots make.
That way pilots can make is fighting for SOV.
Making isk with PVP. Ideal world.

This sounds like a giant hamster wheel? What would be the incentive for Coalitions to break up if 0.0 SOV went this way?
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Death Reign
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2014-08-06 21:56:06 UTC
This is EXACTLY Lo Sec. It already exists. Go Play There. People DONT play there for exactly the reason's you've listed. CCP would lose more than they would gain with this
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2014-08-07 14:16:38 UTC
Death Reign wrote:
This is EXACTLY Lo Sec. It already exists. Go Play There. People DONT play there for exactly the reason's you've listed. CCP would lose more than they would gain with this

Nope, it’s not exactly low sec and it doesn’t already exist as I've described.

Obviously CCP are putting a lot of effort into the changes revolving around Null Sec "SOV" so using this idea as a starting point, it would clean the slate so they can focus on new and exciting options for them to build upon instead of wasting an insane amount of resources/time trying to put in place FW or other "SOV" mechanics that will just be gammed by the coalition’s again.

If you want to elaborate on what the underlying issue you have with the idea is then I would love to hear it? Is it that you want your name to show up on the EVE map even if you can’t afford to build an ACS in a region but still occupying it? That’s understandable especially if your Alliance is farming, defending, and policing the region effectively. You would still be able to anchor IHUBs so as they increased your influence on the space you occupied your Alliance name would start showing up on the EVE "SOV" map as holding that space.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I could be missing the reason some people want to run on a hamster wheel when they log in in order to "hold space" but no one has yet to explain this? Do you really want to hold space in 0.0 based on how many rats you shoot, mins you mine, and HP/Timers you're able to hide behind? I thought 0.0 Alliances were supposed to be tough and be the "end game" goal for players to be proud of?

If I were CCP I'd ask the CSM9 folks if they would be willing to go this route if CCP were willing to make Covert Ops cloaks something that used fuel or charges so "AFK" cloakers would run out of gas if cloaked for more than an hour or so. I know this issue could run rampant under what I promote so it would be something that could need to be adjusted for this to work.
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Lugia3
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#168 - 2014-08-19 16:37:44 UTC
Needs to happen before it's to late to fix.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#169 - 2014-08-19 17:34:46 UTC
I believe it is key that regardless of specific mechanics changes, ISK acquisition be directly tied into continued conflict at the alliance level.

What I mean is, CCP needs to write into the very DNA of any SOV 2.0 system a huge baseline reduction in today's ISK generation in null, followed by buffs to recover said ISK generation resulting from taking and holding systems.

The more systems held, the more buffs to alliance-member ISK generation an alliance receives in those systems....

Think of the impact that would have to the blue-donut, renter stagnation etc...only people actively shooting others in the head (or supporting those that do) in conquest, would make big ISK.

In my musings I further enhanced the ISK-driver concept with a 'home' system and buffs to warfare, as well as common themes around force projection reductions and the nerfing of cyno's to make null SOV a 'march across WWII Europe' similar to the game of Risk, and open the door to smaller alliances biting off pieces of undefended outer systems...

...but key is getting that ISK-for-conflict driver right.

F

Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#170 - 2014-08-19 18:43:51 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
But then what will the nullbears have to cling to and uphold as their shining achievement that makes them superior to all other players, even if all they did was press F1?

What will the Renters rent?

What will the Pirates pi.... Oh wait....

+1 just because I want to watch what happens when this torch drops on the dry, stale bed of straw that is null-sec when Sov disappears overnight.


OMG THIS
MUST SEE

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Lugia3
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#171 - 2014-09-01 21:57:08 UTC
Must not let this thread die.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2014-09-12 16:59:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
So we are going to have a summit soon, does anyone have any ideas about SOV and Null Sec?


Why yes Fozzie we do. Not sure why you needed to start a new thread about it when I had this one going and Manny's is up to a couple thousand posts that took a month or so to accumulate?

You poked your head back into the thread around page 70 or so to say you were watching......so why ask for a new thread to start? Do we all now need to cross poast all our ideas from these threads to yours for them to be considered?

I guess I should get busy then so my ideas don't get missed....Ugh
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Gridloader
Limitless Capabilities
#173 - 2014-09-13 14:25:08 UTC
Quote:
This idea, or a form of it, would allow players new and dynamic game choices related to Null Sec play. There are hundreds of unused stations and systems all over Null Sec being rented out because the players that want to use them can't kill the SOV structures. The landlords who did, are now logged off, playing other games, and only login to collect the rent checks.


+1 because of truth
Felix Judge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2014-09-16 14:18:44 UTC
/bump for comparative reasons
Infrequent
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#175 - 2014-09-16 14:47:17 UTC
Yes, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSS!

+1 I cannot +1 this enough!
Cae Lara
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2014-09-16 19:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cae Lara
Snot Shot wrote:

Nope, it’s not exactly low sec and it doesn’t already exist as I've described.


Letting vagrants dock up in every station completely destroys the concept of sovereign space. No, it isn't quite lowsec, instead you seem to be asking to turn everything into NPC Null with anom upgrades.. which seems like an incredibly narrow proposal.

I think your desired end would be better achieved with anomaly attachments on POSes in .04 and below, and a general update to their ability to function as a base of operations. This would allow people to squat in any system they can maintain a stick(including neglected sovnull), and receive the basic benefits of holding sov.

People who can field massive fleets still get cozy stations with fancy upgrades that aren't available to their enemies, jump bridges, and myriad other benefits. But they also have to maintain it. Meanwhile smaller players can just slap down a stick and play without having to jump through hoops meant for groups in the tens of thousands.
Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2014-09-17 03:07:36 UTC
Cae Lara wrote:
Snot Shot wrote:

Nope, it’s not exactly low sec and it doesn’t already exist as I've described.


Letting vagrants dock up in every station completely destroys the concept of sovereign space. No, it isn't quite lowsec, instead you seem to be asking to turn everything into NPC Null with anom upgrades.. which seems like an incredibly narrow proposal.

I think your desired end would be better achieved with anomaly attachments on POSes in .04 and below, and a general update to their ability to function as a base of operations. This would allow people to squat in any system they can maintain a stick(including neglected sovnull), and receive the basic benefits of holding sov.

People who can field massive fleets still get cozy stations with fancy upgrades that aren't available to their enemies, jump bridges, and myriad other benefits. But they also have to maintain it. Meanwhile smaller players can just slap down a stick and play without having to jump through hoops meant for groups in the tens of thousands.

I'm not sure what you said there. I'm also not sure you read enough of what people have posted to understand the general approach.

If CCP wiped the structure/timer issue clean as a requirement to hold space, they could then focus on generating **** that makes this game cool and the reason to fight for systems in 0.0.

Most of EVE players are getting older and dont have time to run on the hamster wheels of SOV like they use to and the A.D.D new gen players want faster content. Add content drivers to the game such as the Castle Blacks, Special Mission agents, plexes that take fleets with SC and Titans in them to complete, and other amazing new content to fight over regions for.

Biggest hurdle facing CCP now is vets are losing confidence that CCP actual has a longterm road map planned out for 0.0 and at this point we're like kids in the back seat screaming "are we there yet??" as we've already **** our pants a number of times and daddy CCP is probably getting ready to run the family car off a cliff at this point just to make us stopStraight.
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2014-09-18 06:34:11 UTC
so you want to take away sov itself and replace it with npc nullsec?

I'm confident the cfc can blob anyone even without timers. But why should your arses dock in our stations?

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

Snot Shot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2014-09-18 13:17:09 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
so you want to take away sov itself and replace it with npc nullsec?

I'm confident the cfc can blob anyone even without timers. But why should your arses dock in our stations?

If you haven’t noticed yet, CCP is planning on changing null sec mechanics. Furthermore, if you haven’t noticed, SOV mechanics are **** and have in part produced the circle jerk we’ve got going on today. Add a little goonie diplomacy in there and we got the human centipede we see circling null sec. If you want to throw a statement at it like “turn it into NPC Null sec” without reading the rest of the ideas that differ it from NPC Null sec then my effortless answer back to you would be “no”….Roll

As far as you being “confident” that CFC could blob without timers goes…….good for you. From your employment history it looks like you’ve been kicked about this game worse than most toons I’ve seen so that explains why you would be heated about my idea. You finally “make it” by giving up on being good at the game and join the wannabe goon blob brigade…….gf…Ugh

“But why should your arses dock in our stations”……Lol…..Yah know what would be hilarious? If CCP implemented the mechanic where you could only doc in a Null Sec station if your character was part of the Corp who anchored it at the time it was anchored. That would keep followers like you from crying about losing or not having access to assets you never had anything to do with in the first place……..Blink

Anywhoo…….thanks for the bump and should be fun to hear what CSM and CCP hammer out this week at the summit…Cool
.

Twitter = @Snot_Shot  - “If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"

evesnotshot.blogspot.com

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#180 - 2014-09-18 13:38:13 UTC
Fan of this idea from the start...

But this gem...
Snot Shot wrote:
.... Add a little goonie diplomacy in there and we got the human centipede we see circling null sec. If you want to throw a statement at it like “turn it into NPC Null sec” without reading the rest of the ideas that differ it from NPC Null sec then my effortless answer back to you would be “no”….Roll.....


I want a T-Shirt that says Goontipede or something like that... that blue doughnut's description just got upgraded!

+1