Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I just hope that any change to logis is not going to ruin them for small fleets cause in small fleets with a bunch of logis they are not broken at all, can be countered nicely and all that.

That some feel it is broken when you have 100 logis.... oh well. I am happy that they haven't shut down w-space yet. : )

I'm pretty sure it was the smaller side using T2 to dumbster the larger one who was fielding T1. T1 being closer to T2 remove that edge the smaller group had by investing in high SP hulls.

As for only the high end needing a nerf, we can't really go another route than stacking penalty after a treshold of reps is attained or we will impact smaller group which already have working counters.

GRRRGOONS your numbers break everything!!! :D

Two battleships will out-DPS a Guardian's reps with fleet boosts.

EWar and cap warfare. Jams and and Armageddon's range-enhanced neuts work really well. Your argument in the Mittani articles you linked were "EWar should work against T1 and T2 logistics, but supercarriers are immune to EWar. That's why EWar doesn't work against T1 and T2 logistics." (I'm glad you didn't repeat it here). Also, in large fights, it's very difficult for the opposing logi to keep up, if you're switching targets. You can pretty easily easily pick off a few enemy logi like that.

You mean like logi accomplishes? Because the T1 logi are lower-SP/lower-budget and are still effective.

Anyway, a bigger reason for the null-sec stagnation is basically the two large power blocs that can move massive fleets around very easily, and people just don't have time right now to slog through massive structure grinds.

What would happen if instead of a Logi being able to fit 3-5 large sized modules, it could only fit one? Similar to how there are certain modules which a ship can only fit one of, like triage or siege modules. Wouldn't this make it harder for Logi to manage multiple targets? And then, FC target calling/switching becomes that much more important.

So then you quadruple the cap usage / effectiveness of every remote cap/armor/shield module, quadruple the fitting cost (or not?) and your Logi is now dedicated to one target at a time. Could work for capitals too, double the fittings, cap cost and effectiveness, limit to one per ship.

One other option is to undo the "infinite" capacitor that a Logi chain can create. This adds another effective counter (neuts/NOS/cap bombs) to the Logi situation.

The two changes together could add some interesting changes to the current Logi/anti-Logi meta.

Well there is your problem right there not logistics at all :S

This board hates quotes for some reason so I bolded each point to respond instead.

A logistics cruiser can out-repair the damage of three or more battleships[/quote]Two battleships will out-DPS a Guardian's reps with fleet boosts.

Could you show your work for this? I ran the numbers using the CFC standard fleet battleships and a bonused guardian for this and it came out to more than three even before transversal and optimal range were factored in. If you don't work resists into the equasion what you say is correct though.

Or alternately are you using some kind of super short range high DPS fit? In theory those work but in practice that massive damage rarely gets applied because its so hard to get that close.

EWar and cap warfare. Jams and and Armageddon's range-enhanced neuts work really well.
In large fights it is difficult to counter your opponents reps without being able to simply destroy their ships through alpha strike.

In large scale fights at least these don't work so hot. With the exception of damps, sometimes, usually when the fleet is already way over the numbers needed to alpha targets, simply piling on more DPS to blap enemies and render their reps irrelevant is a better use for those pilots.

Those Geddon neuts still only work out to the optimal range of a Baltec Megan so they have about the survivability of a gerbil in a blender. If geddons and falcons are such an effective counter why have the two massive coalitions with dedicated FC theorycraft teams, thousands of pilots, and massive war budgets not been bringing wings of these ships to major fights?

Your argument in the Mittani articles you linked were "EWar should work against T1 and T2 logistics, but supercarriers are immune to EWar. That's why EWar doesn't work against T1 and T2 logistics." (I'm glad you didn't repeat it here). Also, in large fights, it's very difficult for the opposing logi to keep up, if you're switching targets. You can pretty easily easily pick off a few enemy logi like that.

I'm not sure what you think I'm arguing. Ewar does work against T1 and T2 logistics, just not well enough to prevent the situation I am describing where it often makes it pointless to undock against a bigger opponent. Supercarriers and the wrecking ball are a whole different animal.

As for cycling targets, sure it works. Sometimes. Its what happens when you need to break hostile rep because its the only way to do it most of the time, because there is nothing else that messes with logi very effectively. And the bigger the fights the more this applies.

Give smaller/lower SP/lower budget entities a way to inflict meaningful attrition on on more powerful opponents rather than just getting obliterated, and thereby encourage more instability in nullsec. You mean like logi accomplishes? Because the T1 logi are lower-SP/lower-budget and are still effective.

Sure smaller entities can use T1 logistics but all that does is slightly extend the time it takes a bigger foe to obliterate them. The issue here is that the smaller guy can't scratch the bigger one. If the little guy brings all DPS, kills nothing, and gets wiped out in two minutes or brings some logi of his own, kills nothing, and gets wiped out in five minutes the end result is identical. Either way it would be dumb for him to even undock because he doesn't even have a ghost of a chance of winning.

Anyway, a bigger reason for the null-sec stagnation is basically the two large power blocs that can move massive fleets around very easily, and people just don't have time right now to slog through massive structure grinds.

Is the problem that they can move easily or that they are unbeatable anywhere they go? I agree if you mean the giant blobs of supers that define the game but subcap mobility would not be such an issue if they could be forced to take losses and bring in reinforcements.

Uh, that is not a DPS stacking penalty. That is a fitting stacking penalty.
If 2 Geddons shoot at me, I don't take less damage from the second Geddon, DPS scales linearly for the number of ships you have shooting.
If Logi does not scale linearly, the blob simply overwhelms anyone smaller than them anyway, and they won't take losses like they do currently anyway, because of scale of DPS vs Logi will kill the small guy that much faster.

If you want to limit effective number of logi that can rep one pilot, you also have to limit effective number of DPS that can hurt one pilot to encourage wings & squads splitting targets rather than entire fleets still primarying a single target and that target dying in a fire even faster than it does currently.

The two are intrinsically linked.

They are not.

You cannot alpha something faster than we do now, the idea that taking away logi will mean we kill smaller fleets even faster is a myth. The only thing that would change is that the smaller fleet can kill us in return rather than just getting torn apart for no gain.

So about 7 for a carrier?