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The Logistics Fix Roundup

Author
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2014-09-16 10:17:51 UTC
Sigras wrote:

Have fun coordinating damps on 200+ carriers who, btw can refit off of each other and all carry sensor boosters.


funny, I thought this thread was about logistics not capitals

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2014-09-16 11:32:11 UTC
suid0 wrote:
Sigras wrote:

Have fun coordinating damps on 200+ carriers who, btw can refit off of each other and all carry sensor boosters.


funny, I thought this thread was about logistics not capitals


Capitals are logi boats.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2014-09-16 11:33:50 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
... Do I really need to put a quote of baltec's post into my post to give the necessary context from just 1 post above mine? I thought you had the skill you suggest I am lacking.

oh, sorry, ive taken to just ignoring baltec's posts for the most part... it makes my life easier when I dont listen to goon propaganda


Grr goons poster detected.
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2014-09-16 14:46:54 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:

- It adds no incentive for new tactics or diversity to fleets. It just makes logis not nearly as good, and this would make PvP play much more shallow.
- Would be a nerf to any PvE activity that currently uses logi to include wormholes, incursions, and some exploration.

[...]

- Would be a nerf to any PvE activity that currently uses logi to include wormholes, incursions, and some exploration.

[...]

- No impact on PvE use of logistics

[...]

- Could be used in some types of PvE to increase earnings if it worked on on NPCs

[...]

- Would not make logistics less powerful if one side didn't have enough DPS to break their reps.


Roll Contradictions. And what's the point if it doesn't change anything anyways?


Its a list of different ideas, with some pros and cons listed for each. The first post just has my idea but I go on to address others that came up in the discussion.
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2014-09-16 14:57:19 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Why is logi so overpowered in your eyes, I only know the logi vom subfleet and that never feeled overpowerd.

You can damp them out. When they are at range you can damp with one Celestis up to 4 Logis out.
You can jam them. You take them out of the "game" for 20 sec and force them to rechain if needed.
You can neutralize their cap. No cap no rep.

When your proposal will be implemented most subfleet won´t even consider to take logi with them because it will be useless and you will try to alpha the ships faster than the enemy.

But thats only what i get to know. Pls correct me if i´m wrong


I would argue that the main limitation of a RLD or similar module, namely being very short ranged, would make it hard enough to apply that logi would not become useless. Instead other ship classes would become more useful.

Under the current meta small fast ships are pointless much of the time; they don't have any meaningful DPS, as long as your reps are holding being pointed and/or webbed does not matter, and the cap drain from a frigate is laughable. Because frigates are impotent nobody bothers to bring counters for them and so they live much longer than you would expect. If frigates had a purpose again then so would anti-support and a whole new layer of tactics and options would open up in any fight large enough to have a significant number of logi.

As for logi being overpowered in general I can understand if it seems like they aren't from the perspective of a logi pilot. People are still exploding, you are scrambling to stay alive, and Ewar is wrecking your day half the time. However you are operating in a setting where fleets are built around logistics and the few counters that are even half effective. My argument about logi needing a fix is aimed much more at their broad impact than an immediate tactical problem.
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2014-09-16 15:09:54 UTC
Quote:
That is true. Logis dont need a nerf, they are fine.
If you try to win a fight outnumbered, you're doing it wrong. Only creativity, inventiveness and in some kind metagaming should give you an advantage over an overwhelming enemy. Please dont try to break the game mechanics just because some group of players think that it should be possible to do so.

If PL&CFC are too powerfull to destroy them by force, you can't destroy them. Cut their income, make them break apart and they will disband like BoB once did (from the inside).
Or try to gather enough forces to beat them. Its just as simple as that.


A few points here:

- I am in fact a goon and have been since my 4th day in Eve in 2009. I even FC the occasional fleet and shoot the enemies of the CFC on a regular basis. So I am the overwhelming enemy. That being said in my opinion the current overwhelming power of large fleets and coalitions (in part due to the bar to entry massed logistics impose on fights) is terrible for Eve. I like Eve and I want it to stay the fun, dynamic, emergent game it is. If my space tribe has to take a hit to achieve that then so be it.

- I argue in my first article first article that the way logistics work right now makes it very difficult to come up with a clever solution to winning fights outnumbered. Instead its pretty much a process where you have to hit a certain DPS number or stay docked.

- BoB did not rot away from the inside or break apart, in fact they had just successfully held their space against a massive invasion when they were disbanded. The disband happened because of a disgruntled director and it stripped them of all the defensive advantages of holding space because of how the sov system worked back then. With those advantages gone they were re-invaded by a massive parade of enemies and folded, however cutting off their income or internal political divisions between factions were not a factor. It was literally a single pissed off guy with the right roles.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#27 - 2014-09-16 15:36:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
Wasnt the first half of this post on TMC a while ago?

Thing is, in my personal experience which is mainly wormholes and incursions logistics ships. In wormholes we just ECM/neut them off and then go to work (which in our docterine is fairlty straightforward) but wormhole fights are alot more like a knife fight on PCP in a dark alley then the much more formulaic and MUCH LARGER fights you guys get out in nullsec. And i get its a problem because it is costing you content, but at the same time i dont want to nerf the ship/module class directly..

That said the disruptor might not be a horrible idea, it sounds like a clean fix, but it might not actually fix the underlying problem.... Its hella more enticing then just rigging a full fleet of 1400 maelstroms though..


This is why I prefer the stacking penalty nerf to logi. In small gangs there is no difference but as you say, it is far far easier to get ECM to work in small gangs than in the big fleet fights but in the big fights it means a smaller force could actually kill things as opposed to todays "shoot me again I ain't dead yet" one sided fights vs a blob.


Stacking penalties on logis would make incursions unplayable. There is too much incoming DPS to countenance penalized logis.

The OP's suggestion is interesting, but the chaos of large fleet fights would probably negate its effectiveness. Might be cleaner to just nerf the tank (mainly sig) of the logis, so its easier to alpha them off the field.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2014-09-16 15:58:22 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Stacking penalties on logis would make incursions unplayable. There is too much incoming DPS to countenance penalized logis.

The OP's suggestion is interesting, but the chaos of large fleet fights would probably negate its effectiveness. Might be cleaner to just nerf the tank (mainly sig) of the logis, so its easier to alpha them off the field.


How many logi do you use?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#29 - 2014-09-16 16:01:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Stacking penalties on logis would make incursions unplayable. There is too much incoming DPS to countenance penalized logis.

The OP's suggestion is interesting, but the chaos of large fleet fights would probably negate its effectiveness. Might be cleaner to just nerf the tank (mainly sig) of the logis, so its easier to alpha them off the field.


How many logi do you use?


7-10, mix of scimis and basis. Some of the sites can have nasty initial DPS. You would also need to think about other people who use logis...not sure if the WH folks use them in C5/C6 to run sites. Stacking penalties would be fine for PvP, when the expectation is that a lot of ships will be blowing up, but would cause a real problem for PvE activites (though I'm not sure exactly how many use multiple logis) where the current reward structure is not set up to account for a bunch of ships blowing up.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2014-09-16 17:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Stacking penalties on logis would make incursions unplayable. There is too much incoming DPS to countenance penalized logis.

The OP's suggestion is interesting, but the chaos of large fleet fights would probably negate its effectiveness. Might be cleaner to just nerf the tank (mainly sig) of the logis, so its easier to alpha them off the field.


How many logi do you use?


7-10, mix of scimis and basis. Some of the sites can have nasty initial DPS. You would also need to think about other people who use logis...not sure if the WH folks use them in C5/C6 to run sites. Stacking penalties would be fine for PvP, when the expectation is that a lot of ships will be blowing up, but would cause a real problem for PvE activites (though I'm not sure exactly how many use multiple logis) where the current reward structure is not set up to account for a bunch of ships blowing up.


We are talking about the use of 20-50 logi and Boot fleets with 100-250. Its the high end where the issues are, the lower end of 1-10 are actually able to be countered by E-war and neuts effectively enough to make a difference.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#31 - 2014-09-16 17:50:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


We are talking about the use of 20-50 logi and Boot fleets with 100-250. Its the high end where the issues are, the lower end of 1-10 are actually able to be countered by E-war and neuts effectively enough to make a difference.


Well if the stacking penalties only started for 15+ it would probably not affect PvE. The bigger question I have is why in the fleet battles you can't just primary the logi and knock them off the field. Is it that hard to get enough alpha damage to blow through a squishy logi? I realize they have speed tank, rep drones, etc.... but just get some frigs in to web em down, and focus the subcap fire on them one at a time. That's def what you see happening in small-medium gang PvP.
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2014-09-16 19:06:23 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We are talking about the use of 20-50 logi and Boot fleets with 100-250. Its the high end where the issues are, the lower end of 1-10 are actually able to be countered by E-war and neuts effectively enough to make a difference.


Well if the stacking penalties only started for 15+ it would probably not affect PvE. The bigger question I have is why in the fleet battles you can't just primary the logi and knock them off the field. Is it that hard to get enough alpha damage to blow through a squishy logi? I realize they have speed tank, rep drones, etc.... but just get some frigs in to web em down, and focus the subcap fire on them one at a time. That's def what you see happening in small-medium gang PvP.



A big part of it is that in large fights the logi hang well back and the DPS are usually fairly effectively fixed by bubbles. The DPS fleets will be maybe 40km apart and the logi will be 60km behind their respective damage blobs; fleet DPS ships are not very effective at that kind of range.

As for getting a bunch of frigates on top of the logi and killing them, the problem is all the logi. You have to have the DPS on hand to break the reps the logi are going to throw one another and that's very hard to do with small hulls. If those frigates just web the logi down it accomplishes nothing without a way to get damage on them; with the DPS stuck in bubbles and great big lumbering battleships thats often not possible.

Thats not to say that these things cant be done. It can, but the brutal evolutionary pressure of nullsec combat has shown that the best use for bodies is to stack more alpha and rep. The side that expends player effort (fleet numbers and isk) to try and be clever will on the average lose more often than the side that just just spams two ship roles. This hits smaller outfits who might be interested in Sov particularly hard because they have less player effort to throw at the problem in the first place.

Forcing logistics into closer proximity to the DPS they are supporting would make them much easier to kill and would definitely constitute a nerf by the way.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-09-16 19:38:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Stacking penalties on logis would make incursions unplayable. There is too much incoming DPS to countenance penalized logis.

The OP's suggestion is interesting, but the chaos of large fleet fights would probably negate its effectiveness. Might be cleaner to just nerf the tank (mainly sig) of the logis, so its easier to alpha them off the field.


How many logi do you use?


7-10, mix of scimis and basis. Some of the sites can have nasty initial DPS. You would also need to think about other people who use logis...not sure if the WH folks use them in C5/C6 to run sites. Stacking penalties would be fine for PvP, when the expectation is that a lot of ships will be blowing up, but would cause a real problem for PvE activites (though I'm not sure exactly how many use multiple logis) where the current reward structure is not set up to account for a bunch of ships blowing up.


We are talking about the use of 20-50 logi and Boot fleets with 100-250. Its the high end where the issues are, the lower end of 1-10 are actually able to be countered by E-war and neuts effectively enough to make a difference.


So it's alright if we implement stacking penalty starting from let's say over 10 ships to keep small combat as it is not since they already have know and workable counter while trying to put a limit to the broken factor larger fleet bring?
FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2014-09-16 20:09:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Stacking penalties on logis would make incursions unplayable. There is too much incoming DPS to countenance penalized logis.

The OP's suggestion is interesting, but the chaos of large fleet fights would probably negate its effectiveness. Might be cleaner to just nerf the tank (mainly sig) of the logis, so its easier to alpha them off the field.


How many logi do you use?


7-10, mix of scimis and basis. Some of the sites can have nasty initial DPS. You would also need to think about other people who use logis...not sure if the WH folks use them in C5/C6 to run sites. Stacking penalties would be fine for PvP, when the expectation is that a lot of ships will be blowing up, but would cause a real problem for PvE activites (though I'm not sure exactly how many use multiple logis) where the current reward structure is not set up to account for a bunch of ships blowing up.


We are talking about the use of 20-50 logi and Boot fleets with 100-250. Its the high end where the issues are, the lower end of 1-10 are actually able to be countered by E-war and neuts effectively enough to make a difference.


So it's alright if we implement stacking penalty starting from let's say over 10 ships to keep small combat as it is not since they already have know and workable counter while trying to put a limit to the broken factor larger fleet bring?


It could work, though it would still offer fewer interesting tactical choices than some kid of rep-reducer or resist reducer. Instead fights over a certain size would still just be DPS races between big ships blasting each other because big scale logisitcs would be much less useful.

If it can be avoided by a more counterable mechanic I don't see any reason to make big fleets not want to use logi; it just takes depth from gameplay.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#35 - 2014-09-16 21:50:28 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:


It could work, though it would still offer fewer interesting tactical choices than some kid of rep-reducer or resist reducer. Instead fights over a certain size would still just be DPS races between big ships blasting each other because big scale logisitcs would be much less useful.

If it can be avoided by a more counterable mechanic I don't see any reason to make big fleets not want to use logi; it just takes depth from gameplay.


Another aspect of your original idea you would need to consider is the effect on suicide ganking. Specifically, if this logi-damping module is easy enough to fit and use, the people who gank freighters and try to gank incursions runners would probably fit these to negate the on field logi. I'm definitely in agreement that something needs to be done about the use of logi in big fleet fights, where an OP logi chain can mean that one fleet doesn't lose a single ship and massacres the other side, but I'm not seeing a need to make it a lot easier to suicide gank ships in highsec that have logi support. This might be another argument in favor of the 10+ or 15+ logi stacking penalties idea. My idea of making logi squisher so it's easier to snipe them could also help.
Stephanie Rosefire
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#36 - 2014-09-16 21:56:04 UTC
im going to like this because the Op's name is fricken hilarious
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#37 - 2014-09-16 22:20:12 UTC

Logistics very much destroy game play.

The only properly balanced logistic ship in this game is the triaged carrier. It gives awesome RR, but it cannot receive it and must commit to the battle for 5 minute intervals. Using RR should be a double edged sword. You save your buddy while putting yourself at risk.

All other logistics ships ultimately make larger fights futile and pointless. If I get together a fleet of 50, and run into a fleet of 100, quite often there is no point in engaging because we will wipe out while inflicting very little economic damage on that fleet of 100. Why fight?

There should be a middle ground, and while EWAR helps this enormously, it isn't enough. I'd support the Remote Logistics disruptor option!


Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#38 - 2014-09-17 02:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
baltec1 wrote:
This is why I prefer the stacking penalty nerf to logi. In small gangs there is no difference but as you say, it is far far easier to get ECM to work in small gangs than in the big fleet fights but in the big fights it means a smaller force could actually kill things as opposed to todays "shoot me again I ain't dead yet" one sided fights vs a blob.

So when does DPS get a stacking penalty as well? Otherwise we yet again get the situation where the large blob auto wins.
If DPS scales without penalties, logi needs to as well.

If you want to 'solve' one, you need to solve the other, though obviously the scale doesn't have to be exactly the same cap, but restricting logi without restricting DPS doesn't open up game play. On the other hand, if you do stacking penalise DPS somehow, then you get your Wing Commanders & Squad commanders more involved in game play, since they would have to manage individual targeting while the FC calls general targeting patterns to avoid over stacking.

Which also incidentally removes the instant alpha off grid, meaning everyone gets chances to take part even if primaried, but avoids the infinite reps stalemate.

The Disruptor Idea or any of these thoughts would not give smaller groups a chance to fight larger groups, because the larger group uses the same tactic, in possibly greater numbers and clears the small group off the field that much faster as well. This is like the argument that links help a small fleet fight a large fleet because the large fleet obviously won't bring it's own links.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2014-09-17 08:22:16 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

So when does DPS get a stacking penalty as well?



Happened over a decade ago because of the 8 heatsink geddon abuse, they are also mitigated by resists to a great degree. RR is not mitigated by anything.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Otherwise we yet again get the situation where the large blob auto wins.


As opposed to now where the large blob auto wins and takes no losses?

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

The Disruptor Idea or any of these thoughts would not give smaller groups a chance to fight larger groups, because the larger group uses the same tactic, in possibly greater numbers and clears the small group off the field that much faster as well. This is like the argument that links help a small fleet fight a large fleet because the large fleet obviously won't bring it's own links.


Yet, in the past when logi was not a widely used as today smaller fleets often dunked larger fleets due to using better tactics and better counters. I'll take it being challenging to beat a much larger fleet over it being impossible.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-09-17 12:51:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Yet, in the past when logi was not a widely used as today smaller fleets often dunked larger fleets due to using better tactics and better counters. I'll take it being challenging to beat a much larger fleet over it being impossible.


Didn't those fight usually involve smaller group of T2 ships dumbstering T1 fleet because I remember seeing that a few time. Before logi got used as much as now also refer to before tiericide so T2 were at a bigger advantage over T1 than they are now.

I'm not saying skill was not part of the equation but there were also more factor into it than less logi.
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