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Returnee trying to puzzle the changes
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Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-09-15 19:21:53 UTC
I hope someone can help point me in the right direction?

I have a little puzzle, that I cannot reconcile from what I have read....After the Crius changes (industry) I have 2 Obelisk BPOs - one with ME of 10% and the other of 9%; but both have identical production requirements in terms of components! Why hasn't the former become 'perfect'? Both are still showing the 'extra' Cargo Bay (81) and Construction Parts (51), when I would have assumed they would be reduced by '1' each.

The BPO requirements on the database show the 10% waste - and I thought I'd understood that, after the changes, then ME of 10% was the new 'perfect', especially when a ship has exactly 10% waste in components.

Or, given I was not active at the Crius change - have my BPOs not been changed accurately and I need to 'do something'?

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#2 - 2014-09-15 20:40:07 UTC
The whole material requirements formula has changed. ME research is only part of it. Teams and POS arrays also reduce materials. Also, it is calculated per batch not per run anymore.

Try setting builds for two runs on each blueprint, and compare results. Then try setting it for three runs. You will see differences between the -10% and -9% blueprints then.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2014-09-15 21:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Marcus Tedric wrote:
I hope someone can help point me in the right direction?

I have a little puzzle, that I cannot reconcile from what I have read....After the Crius changes (industry) I have 2 Obelisk BPOs - one with ME of 10% and the other of 9%; but both have identical production requirements in terms of components! Why hasn't the former become 'perfect'? Both are still showing the 'extra' Cargo Bay (81) and Construction Parts (51), when I would have assumed they would be reduced by '1' each.

The BPO requirements on the database show the 10% waste - and I thought I'd understood that, after the changes, then ME of 10% was the new 'perfect', especially when a ship has exactly 10% waste in components.

Or, given I was not active at the Crius change - have my BPOs not been changed accurately and I need to 'do something'?

The BPOs should be the same post-Crius if they were the same Pre-Crius. If they are not still in research now, undelivered from a job that started pre-Crius, I doubt if you can get a GM to make any adjustments.
Pre crius research that crossed patch day that was messed up

Note that rounding has changed. It used to be applied for a single run, and was round-to-nearest. Rounding is now applied to all runs, and is round-up or CEILING.

Consider a small fractional amount of waste, less than a full unit of material, on two different BPO:
1 run: CEILING( 0.01 * 1 run ) = 1 and CEILING( 0.90 * 1 run ) = 1
10 runs: CEILING( 0.01 * 10 run ) = 1 and CEILING( 0.90 * 10 run ) = 9
100 runs: CEILING( 0.01 * 100 run ) = 1 and CEILING( 0.90 * 100 run ) = 90

So if you have low ME% BPO with a low quantity of material, it can be the exact same as a higher ME% BPO when doing 1 run, but as you add more runs, the higher ME% BPO requires less material.

Also note that base waste was increased from 10% to 11.1% (multiplied by 1 / 0.9), and extra materials were moved into base materials (thus gaining waste too), so some old BPO that were perfect are no longer.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-09-15 21:57:28 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
..................

Also note that base waste was increased from 10% to 11.1% (multiplied by 1 / 0.9), and extra materials were moved into base materials (thus gaining waste too), so some old BPO that were perfect are no longer.


Thank you both.

But on the last (quoted) - does this mean that the EVE Database has not been updated? ie it is now 11.1% and not 10% waste as it says?

The additional 'waste' I can understand if there are now further: implants; POS arrays; and Station upgrades that can further reduce wastage.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2014-09-15 22:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Marcus Tedric wrote:
But on the last (quoted) - does this mean that the EVE Database has not been updated? ie it is now 11.1% and not 10% waste as it says?

The number you see now on a BPO or BPC is the material reduction, not the waste.

Technically there is no such thing as waste anymore (from CCP's perspective anyway).

I have no idea what is stored in the waste database field; it is not needed anymore, and I expect ignored.

Example (does not include any extra materials, for simplicity):
ME 10%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 10%) = New Base * 0.9 = Old base
ME 9%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 9%) = New Base * 0.91 = Old base * 1.011111
ME 8%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 8%) = New Base * 0.92 = Old base * 1.02222
ME 7%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 7%) = New Base * 0.93 = Old base * 1.03333
ME 6%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 6%) = New Base * 0.94 = Old base * 1.04444
ME 5%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 5%) = New Base * 0.95 = Old base * 1.05555
ME 4%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 4%) = New Base * 0.96 = Old base * 1.06666
ME 3%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 3%) = New Base * 0.97 = Old base * 1.07777
ME 2%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 2%) = New Base * 0.98 = Old base * 1.08888
ME 1%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 1%) = New Base * 0.99 = Old base * 1.1
ME 0%: Old base * (1 / 0.9) * (1 - new ME 0%) = New Base * 1.0 = Old base * 1.11111