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Oceanus inty/dictor rebal

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-09-13 12:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
A feature list for Oceanus has recently been released (see bottom of thread for link), and in it it has been stated that there will be an interceptor and interdictor update/rebalance/passover what have you. While this is welcome as there are a number of balance issues still to be addressed with some of the ships specifically in relation to each other, what will likely be the hot-button issue for everyone is why in the Amarr God's name did they add bubble immunity to interceptors.

Granted, I shrugged my shoulders and took the gift that has been "interceptors unchained" with all its graces and wonders, as being able to roam null in a ship that DOESN'T cost half a billion isk was, and remains, an extremely nice way to get around and do things in null. TBH one of my favorite ships to be in lately has been a relic-hunting raptor I use for scanning down and cracking null sites; if only from the condor remodel turning it gorgeous. But I digress.

Mostly, I believe the reasoning behind bubble immunity on interceptors on CCP's part has been flimsy and contrived, and while I would be entirely fine with it being eliminated from the game, if I had to decide on a ship to get bubble immunity I'd go with my initial opinion I voiced VERY loudly during the feature thread discussion that Interdictors should get it, since their particular niche finds them at home in gate camps, and NOT being caught in all the bubbles you laid down with you and your mates would make for a great advantage, especially if something lands that you can't handle and you have to get away ASAP.

Now, here's where I think things get a little contrived: CCP stated that one of the main balancing factors to interceptors getting the bubble immunity is their extreme difficulty of fitting and using a cyno. Why not just slap a "cannot fit cynosural field" bonus on it or the dictor that would get it instead, and call it a day? You negate the problem entirely if you just limit what kind of ships can use them. We could even take it a step further and say that you could limit cynos to rookie ships, t1 and t2 ewar frigs, and t1 and t2 ewar cruisers, as well as covops frigs. It wouldn't be that hard, and it seriously wouldn't change the landscape of things, especially considering the place power projection is in right now.

Anyway, onto the nuts and bolts of the balance pass.

-Raptor should have a low slot moved to a mid, an extra turret, and have more power grid but slightly less cpu than the crow. They should also make it an ishukone ship, because dammit; not only is it a rail boat but it's got the shield resist bonus. It lines up perfectly.

-Crow could use a small bump in powergrid.

-Claw should get its utility high dropped down for a mid, or a 4th turret slot.

-Stiletto should get its missile hardpoint dropped for a third turret slot.

-Taranis should get 15/30 for drones, and be turned into a creodron ship and get a slight buff to powergrid and cpu. While the Taranis is fairly strong on its own, It has been overshadowed somewhat by the crow and malediction. And it would look pretty in blue.

-Aries looks great as it is.

-The Crusader needs a fair bit more extra powergrid and cpu; while they had the right idea, they didn't go anywhere near as far as they needed due to the heavy fitting requirements of lasers, and the fact that it's the only inty that gets full bonuses for 4 of its weapons. It should also have the highest capacitor pool and regen out of all of them, so it should be able to at the very least run a long point and mwd well along with its lasers without capping itself out, assuming you have at least one cap regen mod fitted.

-The malediction could use a slight bump in cap regen.

Now, on to interdictors:

-The Flycatcher NEEDS a 2nd low. Badly. Drop a high down to a low and we'll be fine in that department.

-Heretic is still in a weird spot. Dropping the range bonus and a missile slot for a 5% omni damage bonus would be a good start, and then moving a high to a low would make for a dps increase, and make it tanky enough befitting the khanid ship that it is.
OR
it could be changed into a carthum ship with a 7/2/5 slot layout, and given laser bonus, specifically range, firing rate, and tracking speed for 6 guns. Might be stepping on the toes of the Retribution at that point, idk. Having a laser dictor would be nice since not having to worry about ammo long-term in wh or deep null is a VERY nice thing.

-Eris is a straightforward fix. Swap out the damage bonus for a firing rate bonus for its guns, drop a turret, and move a high to a mid.

-Sabre is in a good spot. No change needed.

Here's the dev blog: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/coming-in-oceanus-on-september-30/

Thoughts? I would very much like to know people's opinions about the bubble immunity thing; I'm interested to see if people like it in the game on small ships, want it removed entirely, or if they'd prefer it on the dictor as discussed earlier.
Phoenix Jones
The Markoni Dragons
#2 - 2014-09-13 12:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
For the most part I agree with the interdictor changes.

The interceptors are in a wierd place. I would pretty much scrap the combat interceptors, buff the remaining interceptors slighty. Or would change the combat ones and merge them with the exploration ones making combat probing ships.

So basically remove the combat interceptors, and rebuff the exploration (or possibly the assault frigates instead).

Might be too powerful to have a combat cloaked prober frigate though.

And Fer. There's nothing wrong with her putting up a post.

Yaay!!!!

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-09-13 12:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Phoenix Jones wrote:
For the most part I agree with the interdictor changes.

The interceptors are in a wierd place. I would pretty much scrap the combat interceptors, buff the remaining interceptors slighty. Or would change the combat ones and merge them with the exploration ones making combat probing ships.

So basically remove the combat interceptors, and rebuff the exploration (or possibly the assault frigates instead).

Might be too powerful to have a combat cloaked prober frigate though.


What about opening the divide between them more to accentuate their flavor? Giving combat inties the bubble immunity and fleet inties the point range I think would be a nice offset, what do you think?
Arla Sarain
#4 - 2014-09-13 12:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
I don't see how taranis needs more deeps.

It has been overshadowed by the crow and malediction, cos the latter two overshadow bloody everything thats not a pirate frig. They are practically the only few frigate hulls that matter.

Cos range dication and being able to hit far is how this game is won without going into the "too much effort for reward" region. Slingshotting exists, sure, but hitting stuff from a far is generally the most flexible trait that is applicable to small scale and large scale fleet fights.

Taranis has enough deeps to step on the balls of some destros. It doesn't need any more. The "issue" with the taranis is that its field of excellence is extremely narrow, down to small scale and solo fights.

If anything, all interceptors should become more agile. There hasn't been a role fit for high turn rate at close distances. Game feels like flying in tacky tar and having a class of ship hulls that circumvent that and give us the opportunity to fly in a MODERATELY exciting fashion would be great IMO. We currently have the garmur and from the texts of previous updates it seems the dram used to be like that too (fast acceleration and extremely maneuverable)
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#5 - 2014-09-13 12:58:36 UTC
I think that Interceptor balance as it is now is in a very good place. the Only one that needs major adjustment is the Raptor. I would have an absolute field day if you buffed the Claw/Taranis/Crusader, I think they are fine. I would agree on Stiletto getting +1 Turret.

Interdictor balance right now is also pretty good, Sabre/Heretic are in a good place, Eris/Flycatcher could prehaps use some slot adjustments, or a PG/CPU increase. Since fitting a Flycatcher with LML, MSE, and MWD is impossible (but easypeasy on Heretic), and Eris has CPU issues when using a rail fit, and blaster fit with 2 mids it also has issues.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-09-13 13:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Arla Sarain wrote:
I don't see how taranis needs more deeps.

It has been overshadowed by the crow and malediction, cos the latter two overshadow bloody everything thats not a pirate frig. They are practically the only few frigate hulls that matter.

Cos range dication and being to hit far is how this game is won without going into the "too much effort for reward" region. Slingshotting exists, sure, but hitting stuff from a far is generally the most flexible trait.

Taranis has enough deeps to step on the balls of some destros. It doesn't need any more.

If anything, all interceptors should become more agile. There hasn't been a role fit for high turn rate at close distances. Game feels like flying in tacky tar and having a class of ship hulls that circumvent that and give us the opportunity to fly in a MODERATELY exciting fashion would be great IMO. We currently have the garmur and from the texts of previous updates it seems the dram used to be like that too (fast acceleration and extremely maneuverable)


Fair point. Would you rather see the aries get the drone bay instead, and have the taranis drop its drones? A noticeable buff for agility like you mentioned would be a great upgrade for them; I know when I'm flying at insane speeds in an inty it feels like I'm strapped to a rocket with reigns and I'm trying to physically yank the whole thing in a certain direction, lol.
Arla Sarain
#7 - 2014-09-13 13:20:43 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Fair point. Would you rather see the aries get the drone bay instead, and have the taranis drop its drones? A noticeable buff for agility like you mentioned would be a great upgrade for them; I know when I'm flying at insane speeds in an inty it feels like I'm strapped to a rocket with reigns and I'm trying to physically yank the whole thing in a certain direction, lol.

Taranis is in a good place right now IMO. It has a neat distinguishing feature.

The reason why it falls short in the broad spectrum of engagements is largely attributed to how this game was set up ages ago - scram+web being the bread and butter of close range fights.
The issue with this is that, blasteranis and in general all combat inties have DPS ranges well below scram and web. This severely limits what individuals can do with these hulls, setting in stone their niche roles.

An exciting solution to combat inties would be to reduce PG requirements on 1MN ABs. Sounds like an overkill, but I think the ability to maneuver well within scram/web range by being able to comfortably fit dual prop set ups would go a long way for all of them. To compensate they can have reduced CAP levels in order to force them to use MWDs to get in close and then AB around rather than permanently run MWDs. A slot rearrangement would have to be made for claw and such.

@Ares - it's a fleet inty (I assume so cos of the point range bonus) It will fall short exactly because of malediction and crow. Its a gallente ship so its tailored towards blasters. I dunno. It being a Roden Shipyards hull it could get a bonus to the cycle time of launchers, more launcher hardpoints (without an increase in High slots and reduction of turret hardpoints). As silly as it sounds, defender missiles do work and I think Ares is a good candidate to become one of the most elusive interceptors - difficult to damage with missiles due to defenders and a reduction in sig radius would help against turrets and drones.
StainLess Blade
Interstellar H00kers
#8 - 2014-09-13 16:15:04 UTC
How about make a new module that can fit only on inty.
Module that you can fit only in low slot.
You gain immunity to buble with it but scan resolution and agility of ship will be nerfed. And you cannot put cyno module and that module on ship at the same time.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#9 - 2014-09-13 16:17:18 UTC
Difficult to fit a cyno on an inty? When my corp was still doing daily nulsec inty roams i figured i'd throw one on there for the lulzies, got the raptor (cheapest interceptor in amarr at the time) fitted a single cargo expander in the lows and that left me with PLENTY of cargo space and enough fitting space to fit it fit all the guns i needed and all the tackle and other stuff we need...

Didnt bother local tanking it granted since i figured i was going to self destruct it once i lit the cyno and instead fit for MAXIMUM nano, but it took me all of 40 seconds including buying all the modules to fit 2 of them with nary a second glance at eft to make sure it all fit...
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-09-13 17:09:23 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
Difficult to fit a cyno on an inty? When my corp was still doing daily nulsec inty roams i figured i'd throw one on there for the lulzies, got the raptor (cheapest interceptor in amarr at the time) fitted a single cargo expander in the lows and that left me with PLENTY of cargo space and enough fitting space to fit it fit all the guns i needed and all the tackle and other stuff we need...

Didnt bother local tanking it granted since i figured i was going to self destruct it once i lit the cyno and instead fit for MAXIMUM nano, but it took me all of 40 seconds including buying all the modules to fit 2 of them with nary a second glance at eft to make sure it all fit...

"difficult to fit" were CCP's words not mine. I think it's almost mortifying how off-base they are sometimes about what/how they think players will be fitting ships after they've been changed.

That being said, I am baffled why they didn't just ban them outright on the ships in question.
Zarodia Mainyu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-09-13 17:10:10 UTC
StainLess Blade wrote:
How about make a new module that can fit only on inty.
Module that you can fit only in low slot.
You gain immunity to buble with it but scan resolution and agility of ship will be nerfed. And you cannot put cyno module and that module on ship at the same time.

sounds like a frustrated gate campers...

immune to bubble, align time of 4 sec, lockable in less than 2 sec ? great idea.
Evil

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#12 - 2014-09-13 21:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
CCP Fozzie is on the record as saying that bubble-immune interdictors would be horribly overpowered.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bubble immune dictors would be wtfbbqop. Just saying.
DrysonBennington
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-09-13 22:57:44 UTC
Maybe the dictors need to be replaced with a Mobile Interdiction Mobile Depot.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#14 - 2014-09-14 00:43:36 UTC
i agree with changing the heretic too a carthum laser boat.. the only amarr interdictor should be lasers not a secondary weapon system.
Raptor needs that extra mid .. that utility high is pretty worthless..
crusader also needs an extra mid .. 2 midslots is pretty poor for a frigate

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-09-14 05:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Samuel Wess
Sabre is really heavy to use at this moment. It moves as a cruiser almost, frigs out run it. The cloaked sabre
on gate doesn't work anymore, ships get in warp before decloak/launch bubble thing, that used to work
so fine for years.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

Belen Shields
Iskender Kebap Corp
#16 - 2014-09-14 05:24:48 UTC
Right now Interdictors are next to useless in Lo/Hi so I would like to see a tweak in form of a bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor optimal range on the hulls.
On the Hulls I must admit that the 4 Turretslots on a Heretic aren't of any use and could be reduced. The Eris is instead lacking Powergrid to really make use of a good Blaster/Railgunfit. The Flycatcher could need a tweak to its scan res to get in line with the other dictors.Beneath what I mentioned above most Interdictors are quite well rounded up.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Thermodynamics
#17 - 2014-09-14 14:01:43 UTC
I think 'Ceptors are in a good place, save the Craptor which is honestly worse than an Atron. Dictors are also fairly balanced, with the Heretic and Sabre leading the pack, however the Eris and Flycatcher could use some slot adjustments (high to a low on the Flycatcher pls).

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#18 - 2014-09-14 20:59:04 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Leonard Nimoy II
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-09-14 22:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Leonard Nimoy II
Liam Inkuras wrote:
I think 'Ceptors are in a good place, save the Craptor which is honestly worse than an Atron. Dictors are also fairly balanced, with the Heretic and Sabre leading the pack, however the Eris and Flycatcher could use some slot adjustments (high to a low on the Flycatcher pls).


Agreed; ceptors don't need a nerf with regards to bubble immunity. Maybe a rebalance to even out some of the performance differences, but people whining about them being bubble immune is pointless. Just fit up remote sebos for insta-lock if you want to catch ceptors, they're not OP. People just want bubbles to be OP so they can sit and camp on gates (lazy) rather than do real pvp. Bubbles without dictors having bubble immunity are an "I win" button.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#20 - 2014-09-14 22:38:08 UTC
Leonard Nimoy II wrote:
Liam Inkuras wrote:
I think 'Ceptors are in a good place, save the Craptor which is honestly worse than an Atron. Dictors are also fairly balanced, with the Heretic and Sabre leading the pack, however the Eris and Flycatcher could use some slot adjustments (high to a low on the Flycatcher pls).


Agreed; ceptors don't need a nerf with regards to bubble immunity. Maybe a rebalance to even out some of the performance differences, but people whining about them being bubble immune is pointless. Just fit up remote sebos for insta-lock if you want to catch ceptors, they're not OP. People just want bubbles to be OP so they can sit and camp on gates (lazy) rather than do real pvp. Bubbles without dictor bubble immunity are an "I win" button.


As a hictor pilot I completely agree with your assessment. Cepters don't provide enough meaningful stat stick numbers to warrant much attention in my books. (and when they're spammed enough, you were going to die anyways because of blobbing) Especially when they don't seem to have much of a problem dying in the first place. Most of the posts I see asking for a nerf boil down to, "My bearing system isn't safe anymore. Please CCP, make me safe again." Cepters provide a fleet an effective tackle in a bubbled system until the rest of the fleet is done slow boating through the bubble fest or slugging it with the gate occupants. So yeah, it's fine. H T F U

ISD Ezwal wrote:
-snip-


Good to see Ezwal is back to reigning in our fun though. Lol
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