EVE General Discussion

That's much better, thank you for your efforts. I would add to the criteria that harassment includes targeted offense at a trait of the person, and not their character. An example could be the ethnicity of the person or a disability, for sake of clarity.

With the inclusion of that, I find no fault with how it's currently presented, personally. Of course, the exceptions to the in game actions are a potential vice, but as they're not stated, I have no issue. It serves a good foundation to be clarified if necessary.



Disappointment carries the connotation that I have some sort of hope or expectation as to the conclusion of the discussion, this is contrary to what I've stated before. Though you're correct in that I was in the midst of a socratic method, which is why I said it lost its context.

I'm going to try and define the difference between role playing a criminal in EVE Online and being a real life bully.

How do we define common decency? Common decency is an expectation to adhere to social convention. As an example, if in a public place you encounter another person crying, you could treat that person in one of three basic ways:

1) Ask them what's wrong and try to help them
2) Ignore them and walk on
3) Laugh at them, grab your phone and record them in their emotional state

It's pretty clear to all of us that only the first two options are acceptable. The first is obviously the 'nice' thing to do, but no one would cast judgement on somebody who simply didn't want any drama. The third, by any standard is obviously just cruel and unnecessary.

In EVE, many of our actions cause upset for other players. Sometimes we beat them in a duel, or we gank their hauler or maybe they get scammed. Many players in those situations would dust themselves off and carry on playing, a little wiser (and poorer). Some, however, would fly off the handle, screaming, cursing and ultimately making a spectacle of themselves. To any EVE player, anyone reacting like the latter would be told to calm down and HTFU. It is after all, the nature of EVE.

So, where is the line? When is it acceptable to tell a player to HTFU and when are we expected to leave them be, or better yet, help them?

I believe that if my actions would result in another player being upset that I need to ask myself the following question:

What does my in game character stand to gain as a result of my actions?

Consider the following:

While playing my character Hiasa Kite, I encounter another character called Stupid Noob. I convince Stupid Noob to contract to me all his stuff with the promise that I will triple his wealth afterward (a clever lie). To facilitate the scam, I invite him to join me on a TeamSpeak server. This will allow us to communicate faster and more clearly. As Stupid Noob is handing his stuff over, I ask Stupid Noob to sing songs for me and we have a good laugh. Even Stupid Noob, despite being the victim of a scam is in high spirits because he isn't aware of the nature of his situation. He even laughs with us, fully aware of how tone deaf he is.

Once the penny drops for Stupid Noob (and the player controlling him) that he's been scammed, he's obviously going to be upset; this shouldn't surprise anyone. At this point, I need to ask myself the question that defines the difference between playing EVE and being a bully.

Can I justify my actions? What has Hiasa Kite gained from this event? Of course, Hiasa is now considerably wealthier. My actions as a real life person are justified by the benefits to my in-game character.

But what happens after the scam? My mark has figured me out or maybe I've successfully robbed him of all his virtual-wordly possessions. At this point, the character Hiasa Kite has already gained everything he can from Stupid Noob. Hiasa's sole interest in Stupid was Stupid's space pixels, which Hiasa now owns. At this point, Hiasa has no reason whatsoever to continue the conversation with Stupid.

I can no longer justify remaining on TeamSpeak with the scam victim because Hiasa Kite would consider staying a waste of his time. Without any in-game justification for my actions, it stands to reason my only reason to stay and record Stupid Noob's tantrum is for my personal amusement. At this point, I am no longer role playing Hiasa Kite, the hardened space criminal in EVE Online. At this point, I'm just a real life a**hole.

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I hope this post does its job of satisfying many players' concerns that the definition of "real life harassment" is too vague to be enforceable. While I don't expect further clarification from CCP on the matter, I do hope that other players can use this as a guide that helps them gauge when they've pushed their game too far.

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While there are concerns regarding CCP's position on events that occur outside their servers, it's an entirely different kettle of fish and separate discussion in itself.

I just feel that there is an issue from inside CCP where some people are not comfortable with some gameplay like ganking, awoxing, scamming, etc. and it just seams like they influence this decisions.

I just don't get why people who make someone sing and rage on TS get a permabann and people who threaten to spoil my family and set my house on fire are still in the game (You now you clever CCP folks, you don't tell us what action you take, but there is something called the watchlist...). It seams out of proportion to me.

Just to clarify, I am not here to justify or defend any actions that may have caused this bans. I simply try to state my discomfort as it seams that this decisions may somewhat be biased, because there are people inside CCP who consider actions like ganking, awoxing, scamming etc. grief play.

We're all nerds here, 'Slo, and you've had plenty of victims of your own, I'm sure.

Christ, how old are you people? Going to school as a child must have had some seriously traumatic moments for some of you, given the level of hyper sensitivity displayed. Some goober in a video game rubs it in that he killed you ,and it becomes an issue? Really? Call the guy an ******* and move on, maybe?

I'm not sure if I had even reached kindergarten yet when I was taught that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

HTFU doesnt even begin to cover it. How 'bout GTFU? Grow The **** Up.

I agree that it's good the NFL (eventually) accepted third-party evidence.

ed: thought experiment. A line is drawn. In two different harassment cases, two GMs make two wrong judgements:
"You've clearly crossed the line, but we're letting you off because reasons."
"You came awfully close to the line, but shucks, you're just too clever for me, wily player. Go about your business."

Which of these scenarios would you consider "likely"? How do these scenarios compare to the enforcement of today's non-rules?

You were just too young to appreciate the 80's. Man, back then, not only did MTV actually show music videos, most of them were ROCK music videos! I know that correlation does not prove causality, but the decline of western civilization seemed to parallel MTV's descent into playing nothing but (c)rap videos, and then switching to no music at all, just umpteen horrible "reality" show's like "16 and Pregnant."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOBfpHv1VcI
Tell it like it is, Jello

Nonono, that's not what I said

I said, nothing good CAME OUT of the 80s. It might have had good stuff, but it never managed to escape the 80s, it just got stuck there.

Maybe they should stop encouraging it. To ban someone for a type of game play they encourage seems ridiculous.



It's not the guys fault. He was emotionally upset because someone destroyed his in game items so he lost control and threatened to murder people in real life. I mean if that nasty ganker wasn't so mean to him he wouldn't have had to make such threats to protect his in game assets.

Only giving my personal opinion here.



No to the first part. No matter how I meet someone, real life is outside the purview of CCP's oversight. If I meet irl someone who I'd met on Eve, and we end up in a fistfight at the pub, that's none of CCP's business. That said, if in-game assets are used to harass someone by nature of holdingthem ransom, etc, THEN I can see CCP stepping in. Additionally, I think if CCP does step in, they should let the community know why, exactly.



A simple "Such an Such was banned because he did THIS.." would suffice. Whats with CCP creating an atmosphere or fear in the playerbase?



If someone other than CCP makes information pertaining to a "case" in question, I think it wouldbe important for CCP to at least state whether the information being pubished is true or not.

Also, I'd just like to throw in here that being a prick is not a crime.