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CCP Survey about Industry - Your opinion Doesn't Matter?

Author
Coyote Laughing
#1 - 2014-09-06 16:30:49 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=313243&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=http%3a%2f%2findustry.questionpro.com&domain=questionpro.com
"This Survey has been deactivated by the owner."

(After navigating through several annoying pages and the warning to reach it)

How many pages of complaints will it take before CCP gets it's stubborn heads out of their a..(cough) out of the sand?

I need stuff to work, not look pretty, or cost exponentially increasing ammounts because CCP still makes too many facilities invisible to find these mythical cheap stations without visiting every single one of them.

At first, I adapted by simply stopping research, but now industry is getting rediculously expensive.

Two weeks ago, I submitted a month long job to build some shuttles - that cost me 270k or so.

Today, after getting all of the minerals necessary, it cost me about 1.4million to do around a 3 HOUR job, in the cheapest facility I could find in 3 regions !

At this point, my options were to transport all of the minerals at considerable risk to a trade hub and wait for it to sell, or push ahead.

CCP either has deliberately chosen to freeze out casual hisec players, or they have made a colossal error of judgement when they set their benchmarks for the costs. A 5% decrease from a team doesn't come anywhere close to costs being bilions of times higher (and I'm not exaggerating here either, it just keeps climbing).

So what was it?

A) deliberate decision to screw over a lot of independent high security industrial players to appease a CSM that doesn't represent us because it is stacked by the nullsec power blocs?
B) colossal incompetence?
C) arrogant disregard in failing to consult the people affected?
D) attempting to patch the game with public relations and advertising instead of actual game development.
E) Cost cutting? "Good enough is close enough until we can free the other development teams up"

Note: they are not mutually exclusive defenses, any combination can apply.

l8r \o/

Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2014-09-06 18:26:57 UTC
Your tears are glorious.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2014-09-06 19:05:25 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Your tears are glorious.
they go really well when you serve them with freshly harvested whine.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-09-06 19:23:40 UTC
As a highsec industrialist, let me complement the OP, for being a idiotic jerkbag, on the forums.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Paranoid Loyd
#5 - 2014-09-06 22:13:58 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Your tears are glorious.
they go really well when you serve them with freshly harvested whine.


Dinsdale vintage, best vintage

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Coyote Laughing
#6 - 2014-09-07 16:05:55 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Your tears are glorious.
they go really well when you serve them with freshly harvested whine.


Zero content contribution.

If you can't say something nice, then at least say something intelligent.

Obviously, you are incapable of both.

l8r \o/

Coyote Laughing
#7 - 2014-09-07 16:24:41 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
As a highsec industrialist, let me complement the OP, for being a idiotic jerkbag, on the forums.


For those players with POS anchored in a high system without other manufacturing facilties, you are fine - pity about those new players starting out in industry and paying orders of magnitude greater than the career mission reward to build a civilian shuttle.

However, lets look at some decisions by CCP.

1: Artificially set ice levels in high sec to 80% of total demand, but of course that always lags.
effect: strangle fuel production and keep squeezing more when POS start going out of business
2: Create a monopoly on POCOs needed for fuel blocks and construction blocks (T2 ships, etc).
effect: allow PvP corporations to squeeze out the industrial/mining corporations.
3: Remove the standing requirements for setting up a POS in empire space
effect: remove the consequences for PVP corporations who have trashed their empire standings in lowsec.

How am I supposed to be able to afford to run a POS, let alone defend it - high sec facilities are my only realistic option?

Did CCP want to design an ISK sink, or a black hole that sucks everything in and leave an empty void?

For all those people living in alliances who get ship replacement so they can keep on having fun, laugh it up now - but when you don't have industrialists in your corps to build those disposable ships or your ratting taxes skyrocket, remember "I told you so."

l8r \o/

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2014-09-07 18:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Coyote Laughing wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Your tears are glorious.
they go really well when you serve them with freshly harvested whine.


Zero content contribution.

If you can't say something nice, then at least say something intelligent.

Obviously, you are incapable of both.

Obviously, you are incapable of taking negative feedback.

People don't tend to take well to posts with exceptional amounts of complaints and accusations, without proper evidence or a solution. Otherwise you are just here to have others agree with you and start a circle-jerk of agreement, while excluding or shunning anyone who disagrees.

Coyote Laughing wrote:
For those players with POS anchored in a high system without other manufacturing facilties, you are fine - pity about those new players starting out in industry and paying orders of magnitude greater than the career mission reward to build a civilian shuttle.

However, lets look at some decisions by CCP.

1: Artificially set ice levels in high sec to 80% of total demand, but of course that always lags.
effect: strangle fuel production and keep squeezing more when POS start going out of business
2: Create a monopoly on POCOs needed for fuel blocks and construction blocks (T2 ships, etc).
effect: allow PvP corporations to squeeze out the industrial/mining corporations.
3: Remove the standing requirements for setting up a POS in empire space
effect: remove the consequences for PVP corporations who have trashed their empire standings in lowsec.

How am I supposed to be able to afford to run a POS, let alone defend it - high sec facilities are my only realistic option?

Did CCP want to design an ISK sink, or a black hole that sucks everything in and leave an empty void?

For all those people living in alliances who get ship replacement so they can keep on having fun, laugh it up now - but when you don't have industrialists in your corps to build those disposable ships or your ratting taxes skyrocket, remember "I told you so."
You choosing not to take advantage of other beneficial options while taking in a higher risk of loss/disruption, is a problem on a more personal level.

There are plenty of options.

E: damn I bit the bait, didn't I?
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#9 - 2014-09-08 00:38:44 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
For those players with POS anchored in a high system without other manufacturing facilties, you are fine - pity about those new players starting out in industry and paying orders of magnitude greater than the career mission reward to build a civilian shuttle.
Have you looked at building anything else?

There was a lot of doomsdaying before crius released, but it's pretty much died down since the release. Most industrialist seem to be back to work and figuring out how to make the best profit in the new environment - even though it's probably going to take a couple more months for the changes to stabilize. In the meantime, I'm a new manufacturer and I'm making a profit in high-sec.


Coyote Laughing
#10 - 2014-09-08 03:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Coyote Laughing
No, negative comments are one thing - nobody takes trolling well.

As to supporting evidence, I still haven't seen you support anything either

It's really difficult to supply supporting evidence when CCP eats your posts when you take the time to do the research.

At least you got the concise and polite version anyway.

Before this degenerates (further) into a poop slinging match, the solution is obvious - join an industrial corp, but I'm kind ot tired of alliance drama.

Until then, I'll just pile up a mineral mountain until I can be bothered to get around to getting my refining skills up to V.

In the meantime, I'll be working on my core skills to do incursions in hisec, assuming that CCP doesn't dry up that well or it doesn't become overcrowded - maybe I can afford that POS then.

l8r \o/

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2014-09-08 04:00:02 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
As to supporting evidence, I still haven't seen you support anything either
You do know its not our job to prove your claim wrong, but your job to prove it right in the first place.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2014-09-08 04:03:51 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:

In the meantime, I'll be working on my core skills to do incursions in hisec, assuming that CCP doesn't dry up that well or it doesn't become overcrowded - maybe I can afford that POS then.

Incursions are already crazy overcrowded. Anyone claiming they can just drop into a fleet any time they want is either talking crap, or personal friends with the FC who kicks someone else for them.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2014-09-08 10:56:10 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:

1: Artificially set ice levels in high sec to 80% of total demand, but of course that always lags.
effect: strangle fuel production and keep squeezing more when POS start going out of business
2: Create a monopoly on POCOs needed for fuel blocks and construction blocks (T2 ships, etc).
effect: allow PvP corporations to squeeze out the industrial/mining corporations.
3: Remove the standing requirements for setting up a POS in empire space
effect: remove the consequences for PVP corporations who have trashed their empire standings in lowsec.



1. can't really help here -- maybe you could try lowsec/nullsec though.
2. EVERYONE IN THE GAME IS IN A PVP CORPORATION. Just because you're not in a combat oriented corporation does not mean that you do not engage in Player vs. Player activities.
3. You might wanna re-check how standings work mate ... shooting players in lowsec doesn't touch your faction standings at all (unless FW targets)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Capsups
Elyrian Dream
#14 - 2014-09-08 11:04:51 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
Before this degenerates (further) into a poop slinging match, the solution is obvious - join an industrial corp, but I'm kind ot tired of alliance drama.

Until then, I'll just pile up a mineral mountain until I can be bothered to get around to getting my refining skills up to V.

In the meantime, I'll be working on my core skills to do incursions in hisec, assuming that CCP doesn't dry up that well or it doesn't become overcrowded - maybe I can afford that POS then.


As Shiloh mentioned, have you considered looking into building something else..? There are plenty of items out there that are worth building. If you keep forcing yourself to build the same thing over and over while the market doesn't need more supply, you're obviously not going to make money. If you're talking about actually getting the ISK to pay for those manufacturing fees, I suggest doing some missions or spending some days mining and selling the minerals to get some liquid ISK to pay the manufacturing fees.

Crius didn't change much besides introducing new costs to manufacturing and obviously those costs have to be covered by increasing the selling price of the item or reducing the raw material price. I'm not seeing the big problem here aslong as one assumes you'll only build items that are actually worth building. Whether the manufacturing cost for that is 1m or 100m doesn't matter, aslong as the final item price is worth more than your raw materials cost + production fees, you're still making money...
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
#15 - 2014-09-08 12:13:09 UTC
Looks to me like this is evidence that the crius update is functioning as intended.

Industry is still quite profitable. But you have to be a bit more knowledgeable about what you are doing. I find this to be a good thing.
Vartan Sarkisian
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#16 - 2014-09-08 13:22:57 UTC
I make stuff in high sec, in public slots too, I do not use a POS, and I make ISK, ok not as much ISK as I would like but I make ISK. I think you will find the issue is perhaps in what you are making. In your example, Shuttles, whilst handy to use are not going to see you rolling in ISK any time soon.

So my suggestion would be to research what T1 products you can make money on, get the BPO if you do not already possess, research ME to at least 9, but 10 preferably (TE too) and then make that, or better still, find a couple of T2 items that sell, learn the skills to get a good invention chance percentage and then go for that.

Why are you looking to get your refining skills to V, do you mine the stuff yourself?
Esmeraelda Jade
Phoenix Development and Logistics
#17 - 2014-09-08 17:01:41 UTC
Why can't I fit all these limes in one basket?!

In other words,

1) Move
2) Make something else
3) Get a POS

If we have to adjust to make money on industry, everyone should. New players shouldn't be overly catered to. They'll still make profit, just not a lot until they realize they need to move and do the same.
Junkiloton
Junk's Empire Welfare and Utilities
#18 - 2014-09-08 18:30:11 UTC
General note: I'm assuming you're building and selling shuttles in a trade hub, otherwise this wouldn't be an actual problem for you with the amount of logistical knowledge and data tracking needed to build and ship that many bloody shuttles around New Eden.

Rudimentary Economics: Don't build things that aren't profitable.

Econ 101: Do some math, make some deals. If you insist on staying in a market, find a way to make it profitable for you. If you can't, research a bunch of ammo bpos, pack the shuttle bpo(s) in with them, and resell the lot to get your money out of it and invest in a mission runner. The industrial complex is not for you.

Advanced economics: Be uncompromising on your profit margins; if reselling a lower order would be cheaper than building a new item, it's arbitrage time. If you really want to make shuttles, build and sell them at low-sec entry points instead of market hubs. Nobody actually NEEDS a shuttle by the time they're at a market because they can get other ships in said market. Gankers and people under consistent wardecs need shuttles going into highsec because their standings and/or hauling options are shot.

If you STILL want to build shuttles and put them in trade hubs, you must build a POS. This won't be phenomenally cheaper than just paying the manufacturing fee (set-up, POS parts, fuel, the list goes on; sure, you can do it for "free," as far as the shuttles are concerned, opportunity costs and all that), but at least you'll feel accomplished. Setting up a POS at least presents the option of branching into multiple markets that don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, so you can generate isk in other areas.
Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
Band of Buggered Alliance
#19 - 2014-09-11 19:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kerono Thalmor
Coyote Laughing wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=313243&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=warning&l=http%3a%2f%2findustry.questionpro.com&domain=questionpro.com
"This Survey has been deactivated by the owner."

(After navigating through several annoying pages and the warning to reach it)

How many pages of complaints will it take before CCP gets it's stubborn heads out of their a..(cough) out of the sand?

I need stuff to work, not look pretty, or cost exponentially increasing ammounts because CCP still makes too many facilities invisible to find these mythical cheap stations without visiting every single one of them.

At first, I adapted by simply stopping research, but now industry is getting rediculously expensive.

Two weeks ago, I submitted a month long job to build some shuttles - that cost me 270k or so.

Today, after getting all of the minerals necessary, it cost me about 1.4million to do around a 3 HOUR job, in the cheapest facility I could find in 3 regions !

At this point, my options were to transport all of the minerals at considerable risk to a trade hub and wait for it to sell, or push ahead.

CCP either has deliberately chosen to freeze out casual hisec players, or they have made a colossal error of judgement when they set their benchmarks for the costs. A 5% decrease from a team doesn't come anywhere close to costs being bilions of times higher (and I'm not exaggerating here either, it just keeps climbing).

So what was it?

A) deliberate decision to screw over a lot of independent high security industrial players to appease a CSM that doesn't represent us because it is stacked by the nullsec power blocs?
B) colossal incompetence?
C) arrogant disregard in failing to consult the people affected?
D) attempting to patch the game with public relations and advertising instead of actual game development.
E) Cost cutting? "Good enough is close enough until we can free the other development teams up"

Note: they are not mutually exclusive defenses, any combination can apply.


I think you're doing it wrong. Let me explain.

You seem to be under the impression that in order to make money with manufacturing, you have to sell the item below what everyone else is selling them at. This is not the case. More often than not, manufacturers who mine their own minerals and have little concept of economics sell their products below cost. This is because they think to themselves, "I mined it and thus it is free". They are in fact very wrong. Opportunity costs. In the time you spent mining those minerals to put in to a product, you could have made more money, say, running missions to buy more minerals than you got mining. You have then wasted time, and thus you have lost money. I'm going somewhere with this.

You complain that you had to pay 1.4 million for a 3 hour job... For how many shuttles? Let's do some math here.

Let's say you want to make 300 Caldari shuttles, using an unresearched BPO. At this time of writing, Tritanium costs 5.50 ISK/pu (that's per unit, in case you were wondering).

That would make the mineral costs for each shuttle 15,279.00 ISK.

Multiply that by 300, you get 4,583,700.00 ISK.

Now let's say it costs that 1.4 million to install the job, which will happen to take 3 hours. That makes the install cost per shuttle a whopping 4,666.67 ISK.

Add the mineral costs to the install costs, you get 19,945.67 ISK per shuttle. This is what you'd need to sell these shuttles at if there were no broker fees or taxes in order to break even.

Multiply that by 300, and you get 5,983,701.00 ISK. But we're not done yet. Now you want to sell these shuttles, and unfortunately there are taxes and broker fees.

Unskilled (i.e., without the Broker Relations or Accounting skills), and at neutral standings, your sell order will cost 1% of the total order value to set up. Taxes will be an additional 1%, so in total that is 2%. Let's say you wanted to make a 10% profit. You'd need to sell each shuttle at 21,940.24 ISK per shuttle, for a total of 6,582,071.10 ISK. Your order would show that you would get 6,450,429.68 ISK. Why?

Because you're paying 131,641.42 ISK between taxes and broker fees. It's important to note that the broker fee is non-refundable. Taxes only come in to play when someone actually buys the product. So you're now getting 21,501.44 ISK per shuttle, and your profit is now around 8%.

This is above costs, and gets you some profit, so this is what you'd sell it at, regardless of what anyone else was selling it at. Your mission is to make profit, let everyone else sell below costs and lose their money. Your products will sell eventually, but if you think they should sell faster, try moving them to a different region to sell.

My point to all of this? I'm saying, don't complain about the costs. The market will adapt to the costs. You should too.

I find this to be a sound explanation of how things work. Please, someone correct me if I've made a mistake somewhere. In closing I'd just like to apologize for the awkward spacing of the sentences. I wanted to make it easier to read & follow.

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Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#20 - 2014-09-11 21:52:09 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Coyote Laughing wrote:
For those players with POS anchored in a high system without other manufacturing facilties, you are fine - pity about those new players starting out in industry and paying orders of magnitude greater than the career mission reward to build a civilian shuttle.
Have you looked at building anything else?

There was a lot of doomsdaying before crius released, but it's pretty much died down since the release. Most industrialist seem to be back to work and figuring out how to make the best profit in the new environment - even though it's probably going to take a couple more months for the changes to stabilize. In the meantime, I'm a new manufacturer and I'm making a profit in high-sec.




According to the newest dev blog, the number of jobs in all parts of industry (except reverse engineering) have even gone up after Crius, so people not only came back, a new wave of fresh blood was injected into industry.
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