These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Fix for Market buy order scams

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#21 - 2014-09-11 15:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: evepal
If you put a buy order up for more than the lowest selling order and have capital to back that buy order, it'll automatically buy up all the sell orders equal or less than your price - that match the quantity and range requirements.

If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price.

So yeah, this is a pretty easy scam to avoid.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-09-11 15:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
evepal wrote:
If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price.



What do you think happens when the seller has margin trading 5 and posts a billion isk order but only has half that in his wallet when someone tries to sell to it?


EVE doesnt do overdrafts.


Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-09-11 16:06:42 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
...Well at least you get to keep your goods, that are worth 3 bil. All you need to do now is find another player who shares that belief and you can sell them your fine products at a generous 5% discount.

These goods are not worth 3B, the scammer would have bought out the market on a rare items first, then reposted the goods on Sell Orders for a greatly inflated price, typically 10 times the price.

At the same time he posts a 'mistaken' Buy order with the price even more inflated but fixed to fail due to insufficient funds using the Margin Trading skill and an empty wallet. The scammers alt advertises the Buy order in local saying something like "Looks at this noob Market error, if only I had the cash to fulfill it." The Victim sees that he can buy the goods and immediately sell them to the Buy Order for a massive profit, without checking what the true cost of the goods are. He buys them, then gets stuck with them when the sell attempt fails and then he finds that the goods are only worth a fraction of the price he paid.

NEONOVUS wrote:
I've always wondered, aside from this scam, what is the point of the min required for sale?
I mean that seems the easiest fix for the scam is to get rid of that
One less column, less database, happier server, fatter hamsters

The purpose of the minimum buy quantity is to allow a buyer to minimise the number of stations he needs to visit when he puts up a multi station buy order. Lets say someone is putting up a Region wide buy order for 10,000 Veldspar. He doesn't care where he goes to collect it when the buy order is fulfilled, but he only wants to make one trip to fetch it. So he wants it all in one place. Not 1-50 units in each of 300 different stations.
Beta Maoye
#24 - 2014-09-11 16:56:24 UTC
Thanks for sharing your story. Last year a lengthy discussion thread in Features & Ideas section was dedicated to your issue. What is said has been said before. The issue remains unchanged. I think CCP will not do anything about it. Learn from your mistakes and move on.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#25 - 2014-09-11 18:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Kel Gunrunner wrote:
I was recently the victim of a market buy order scam that cost me 3 bil.

The guy had flooded the market with sell orders for an item at 300 mil a piece, he put a buy order up that looked like a typo 700,000,000 rather than 70,000,000. so I figured Id try buying one of these and sell it. then i realised the buy order was for 10 so I couldent sell it. At this point I realised I had been scammed and thought... wouldent it be fun to aquire 10 of these to fill his order so he has to pay out... so I did I spent 3 billion on it. and when I clicked it the order dissapeared and instead it had put the 10 items up on a sell order for 700,000,000 each. ShockedQuestionAttention
So you thought you were going to make lots of quick ISK and screw over another pilot?

Kel Gunrunner wrote:
SCAMMED BIGTIME.

I didnt even know there was a skill that allowed you to create false buy orders, but after some reserch I understand the idea behind the skill it just needs a fix to stop people doing this. Ugh
What you did was market PvP. But it just so happens you made a massive error of judgement. Due in part to your lack of gathering information on your investment before taking the plunge.

Kel Gunrunner wrote:
The Solution:
Highlight buy orders in red if the player they belong to does not have the capital to pay out. add a tooltip to explain why it is red. This can be avoided so easily.
The solution is to know what you are doing, before sinking 3 billion into an item/items worth far less. It just so happens the market has tools available to do just that. But greed and the thought of screwing over another pilot, got the better of you.

That said, I would however agree with a tooltip that states. "No order is guaranteed. Buyer beware."

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#26 - 2014-09-11 18:39:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
evepal wrote:
If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price.



What do you think happens when the seller has margin trading 5 and posts a billion isk order but only has half that in his wallet when someone tries to sell to it?


EVE doesnt do overdrafts.


Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this.


Your reading comprehension suggests that you should go ahead and do it. Those two statements weren't separate, they were in conjunction with one another.

In your case, it's quite simple: there'd be a buy order that has a listing price higher than the lowest sell order price. Therefore, that's how you know it doesn't have capital.

Ocih
Space Mermaids
#27 - 2014-09-11 18:39:09 UTC
It's possible to scam the scammer but you need to have the item in volume he is using to scam.

You need to run sale orders assuming his margin escrow is still more than the true price.

With 'typo' scams like 700 mill, a 25% escrow is 175 mill. If you put the sale for that the sale will happen and clear his escrow. A true 70 mill item just sold for 175 mill so you won.

Most traders know that if you see a buy order with a minimum buy order of more than 1 item? It's a scam. The only victims in these trades are new to Trading players and that's unfortunate.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-09-11 19:40:28 UTC
evepal wrote:
afkalt wrote:
evepal wrote:
If you put a sell order up for less than the highest buying order, it'll automatically sell it to the highest buy order that's equal or more than your price.



What do you think happens when the seller has margin trading 5 and posts a billion isk order but only has half that in his wallet when someone tries to sell to it?


EVE doesnt do overdrafts.


Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this.


Your reading comprehension suggests that you should go ahead and do it. Those two statements weren't separate, they were in conjunction with one another.

In your case, it's quite simple: there'd be a buy order that has a listing price higher than the lowest sell order price. Therefore, that's how you know it doesn't have capital.



Yes, however, this is exactly why these are invariably rare items with a minimum quantity attached per purchase.
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-09-11 20:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kell Braugh
"I didn't know there was a +3 strength warp scrambler"
"I didn't know there was an infinite strength warp disruptor"
"I didn't know being too close to an object in space would decloak my ship"
"I didn't know margin trading existed as a skill"

See the pattern?

And about 'lying' to the player, well-- same thing happens in real life markets. Companies asking for proposals for services they don't end up buying, or being able to afford to buy. Doesn't mean the company owes the cost of the product or service to the person who put work in/used capital in an attempt to fulfill the request.

The big difference is that in Eve, you are instantly screwed, as opposed to waiting six months (or more) to find out you are.
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#30 - 2014-09-11 20:48:45 UTC
Kell Braugh wrote:
"I didn't know there was a +3 strength warp scrambler"
"I didn't know there was an infinite strength warp disruptor"
"I didn't know being too close to an object in space would decloak my ship"
"I didn't know margin trading existed as a skill"

See the pattern?

.

So.. if there was a bug ( or "feature") to be able to shoot other players without decloaking would you say: intended gameplay?
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#31 - 2014-09-11 20:53:21 UTC
Kell Braugh wrote:
"
Doesn't mean the company owes the cost of the product or service to the person who put work in/used capital in an attempt to fulfill the request..

Actually yes they do. If one part is retreating from the contract, they still have to pay the goods (or pay a fine)
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-09-12 02:18:41 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Kell Braugh wrote:
"
Doesn't mean the company owes the cost of the product or service to the person who put work in/used capital in an attempt to fulfill the request..

Actually yes they do. If one part is retreating from the contract, they still have to pay the goods (or pay a fine)

When did I say anything about a contract? When did the game say anything about a contract in regards to a buy order.
Reading comprehension FTW.

Grats though on finding the difference between Eve's 'Regional Marketplace' mechanics and it's 'Contracts' mechanics though Idea
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#33 - 2014-09-12 03:16:12 UTC
afkalt wrote:

Edit: The amount of people who patently have no clue how this works suggests that I should start doing this.


Make sure you don't have the actual amount to cover it in the wallet when the buy order is live - I got so much abuse from someone recently lol when I happened to already have a number of the item they were setting up the scam on and they hadn't yet moved the ISK out the wallet :D

While scamming is part and parcel of eve I do dislike this and the old trade window exploit (since patched) as unlike other things that Kell Braugh listed they are mechanisms that can't really be anticipated and also unlike those things exist in other games working in a standardised way that don't allow them to be manipulated in those ways and shouldn't be possible either IMO, though I'd be less against them if like above they had some notification that it couldn't be guaranteed.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#34 - 2014-09-12 03:17:02 UTC
Removed an off topic post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#35 - 2014-09-12 03:32:15 UTC
I almost fell into this same trap as a young player. Thankfully some helpful people in Amarr local saved me. The use of margin to intentionally create inflated buy orders that won't execute is absurd. There should be some kind of reasonable cap on buy order price, and serious consequences to margin trading if you lack the liquidity to execute the buy order. Also the tutorials should cover this scam. The market system creates the imprimatur of legitimacy which is especially troubling here.
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Doomheim
#36 - 2014-09-12 04:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Komi Toran wrote:
TL;DR version: Greedy person taught a lesson by smarter person. Wants to nerf smarter person.



It has nothing to do with being smart. Scammers are usually dumber than the people who fall for their scams, given what they spend their time trying to do. These are copycats who abuse a system that leads a player to believe something is a certain way. It has nothing to do with intelligence, just an abuse of another players all too common lack of knowledge about a certain mundane skill book. Even a moron should be able to understand this.


You are right to feel angry OP. CCP Fozzie has discussed fixing this issue recently. Disgusting how these awful gameplay mechanics are allowed to exist for so long that mostly victimize newer players. It only took them 10 years to fix can flipping.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#37 - 2014-09-12 05:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Kell Braugh wrote:
"I didn't know there was a +3 strength warp scrambler"
"I didn't know there was an infinite strength warp disruptor"
"I didn't know being too close to an object in space would decloak my ship"
"I didn't know margin trading existed as a skill"

See the pattern?

In all fairness for the first 3 listed, even if the above resulted in the player losing their ship, the player would have been at least operating under the impression that they are in a dangerous area and risk losing their ship.

In margin trading, the player is not aware that they are at risk of losing the majority of what they spent.

Kell Braugh wrote:

And about 'lying' to the player, well-- same thing happens in real life markets. Companies asking for proposals for services they don't end up buying, or being able to afford to buy. Doesn't mean the company owes the cost of the product or service to the person who put work in/used capital in an attempt to fulfill the request.

The big difference is that in Eve, you are instantly screwed, as opposed to waiting six months (or more) to find out you are.

Only the same thing doesnt typically happen in gaming markets, and seeing as this is a game world and not the real world, it's not reasonable to assume that margin trading or the margin trading scam exist.... Not to mention if real life margin trading rules applied, the buy order would have been fulfilled and the person that takes the hit is the person who posted the buy order or the entity that allowed said person to trade on a margin.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#38 - 2014-09-12 05:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
How to beat the scam.


See odd buy order,

fill it buying your stuff somewhere else, or as I have done in the past make it and have in the station. I usually kept some overstock if market kind of meh at time of delivery. Assuming no dire need of liquid isk, jsut let it rot and wait for markets to get better.

May only get a few sales but still can make some isk.

if making isk was as easy as seeing low sell order, high buy order we'd all be bazillionaires. Well that and I rarely believe in coincidences.

When you mix the coincidence of odd buy/sell with coincidence hundreds haven't run a train on it.....that's just too many coincidences


For op...to play this game safely in the future besides the above you want to do this on days following patch notes/blogs coming out for upcoming patches and the speculation runs rampant. then watch after patch hit a bit.


When ccp "nerfs" something you can see dips in sell price, But you get a decent chance a buy order has not adjusted and these would be legit risks. Still a risk, but odds a bit better then

The key here though is you need to see lots of buy orders with odd prices. Better chance these peeps are bad at trading or just not online at the time of patch notes. This would be why when I go vacations and such...I pull buy orders. Just not digging item A getting a market slump and peeps running a train on my better prices as a buy order when not able to login often.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#39 - 2014-09-12 06:55:49 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
I've always wondered, aside from this scam, what is the point of the min required for sale?
I mean that seems the easiest fix for the scam is to get rid of that
One less column, less database, happier server, fatter hamsters


Say I want to get 100 Trit and am willing to do some hauling to get it cheap, but I'm not willing to take a trip to get 1 Trit out of a station, but am willing to go get 10. I can only afford 100 Trit.

If I set a buy order with no minimum, I might get 1 Trit in each of 100 stations, such that I've wasted all my money on things not worth picking up.
The minimum guarantees that every Trit I buy is in a stack worth picking up.

It's also totally unnecessary to perform the scam.

Jur Tissant wrote:
A small crowd in my experience, as I have never encountered a legit buy order which couldn't be fulfilled. Besides, does it matter if the the player is a legit trader? If a buy order can't be fulfilled, it can't be fulfilled, and shouldn't the seller have a right to know that?


And as soon as you become a seller, you are informed that the buyer was unable to cover his order.

In other words, the escrow check happens as soon as it matters. That's why it's impossible to lose anything selling to any order. Either you get the money you agreed to receive, or you keep your items.

Major Trant wrote:
These goods are not worth 3B, the scammer would have bought out the market on a rare items first, then reposted the goods on Sell Orders for a greatly inflated price, typically 10 times the price.


As we all know, goods are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them. OP valued the items at 3B.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#40 - 2014-09-12 11:57:11 UTC
This scam should stay. As for station trading, there is little to no risk if you know what you're doing and aren't speculating your entire assets on a fluctuating item -- so there needs to be perfectly legitimate real world examples of those scams, that be replicated to the best of their ability within the confines of the games mechanics.

There are people in the real world, who do in fact sell items far, far beyond the normal price, and people will buy it. You cannot claim you were unaware of an items true value as defense for falling for the scam. Personal incredulity is not a valid argument in any discussion, and that includes this.

Addressing new players who fall for this, if they've amassed a wealth that's going to substantially hurt them in the time before they've started to get hooked into the universe, then they're in no real danger, are they? Either they buy another PLEX, or they'll continue to make ISK the way they did before, or they'll leave. EvE is a harsh game by mechanics, and if they don't like it, then this only serves as the instrument that gave them the conclusion.

There is going to be a mechanic that some new players don't like, just because some new players didn't like this one, doesn't make it an invalid mechanic. You may not personally like it, but please don't confuse personal distaste for something and the health of the universe.

That's just my 0.01 ISK up on this.
Previous page123Next page