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Nerf specialized industrials - make them use cargo expansion too
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Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-09-09 14:31:31 UTC
yummy delicious tears.

as others have said, it's fine.

It's called choices, you can choose what you do.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-09-09 15:04:06 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
While industrials are weak enough in their current format the specialized bays do need tuning down as ATM the Epithal in particular is ridiculous.

Why is the problem specialized bays when the only hauler I see getting called is the Epithal? Seems to me it's just the Epithal that needs adjusting.
Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#43 - 2014-09-09 16:36:41 UTC
OP lacks the skill to kill an Epithal, so comes to the forums to request that they be nerfed. Roll
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-09-09 17:07:38 UTC
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
OP lacks the skill to kill an Epithal, so comes to the forums to request that they be nerfed. Roll

I fly Epithal, and have sustained heavy fire in one. Never lost it.

And you'd be pretty lucky to gank it with fewer than 4 destroyers, even in lowsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-09-09 17:13:56 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Us not understanding might be the point, yes.

If you are just asking for conformity - giving cargo expanders a stacking penalty, then do so. - Oh, you did.
Basically that can be done, and why not, if you can take the balance hit to low slots and cargo with an increase of expander bonus that is. If, sure, but say that and argue that, cause everything you said so far is unrelated to that argument.

Neglecting all possibilities, especially when mentioned, in regards to universal balance of affected items and exploits is bad arguing... so think about all the extremes first.

An you do compare the different cargo bay types and try to valuate their size and importance, constantly. I am only allowed 5 quotes ... so why bother ... you can backtrack your own posts.

As I have mentioned before (and is made abundantly clear by the content of posts on both this and my other thread), any time I go into any significant level of detail on secondary effects, people lose focus and can't read my entire sentences through. This leaves me shrinking my points down as tiny and simple as possible, to see if I can get people to simply admit that step 1 is true. But they will frequently ask "but have you even considered step 2?" and my tireless response will be "yes, I already talked about it earlier in the thread, and nobody could even read the whole thing before jumping to baseless conclusions about it." I've been down this road before, and I'm getting tired of it.

If you guys aren't grasping the concept of my post, why do you feel the need to respond to it?

If you can grasp one of my simple questions, why not give it a simple answer and don't assume I haven't considered the secondary effects when you're unwilling to read about my considerations of the secondary effects?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-09-10 15:39:44 UTC
I see the problem....can't get someone to lock an industrial down for you to pop. Can't bump it so it has to realign. Can't fit a cruiser for more sensor booster to lock faster and more DPS then 4 destroyers. Really, can't see what the problem is about destroyer a crappy Iteron 1 or 2 with another name and finally given a use. Always hated the look of that thing.

Also, could stop complaining about the cargo expanders and ask for some mid slots to be removed, maybe reduce the total amount by 10k m3 cargo space (amount might of been chosen just because huge amounts always turn into smaller products, even CCP is human at some base point and to many trips = just point click to jump gates and harvesting mats). It would make far more sense then your pointless kvetching, but from my understanding of your complaint and CCP's logic....lowsec and null produce better then high sec so that means.....maybe its better to have a harder to catch ship that carries more, providing more targets, and more kill mails. Seems your just more incompetent to catch a ship and blow it up....I just don't get the logic CCP has behind "specializing" the industrials when they could of just added more cargo space, min/max a decent amount of mid/lows depending with decent non-moon like align times and call it a day....an ammo industrial? an industrial with drones? I just don't get it, but still favors Gallente/Iteron 5 training
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-09-10 17:15:55 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Also, could stop complaining about the cargo expanders and ask for some mid slots to be removed, maybe reduce the total amount by 10k m3 cargo space (amount might of been chosen just because huge amounts always turn into smaller products, even CCP is human at some base point and to many trips = just point click to jump gates and harvesting mats). It would make far more sense then your pointless kvetching
You missed my point entirely. Lowering its base cargo capacity not only lowers how much it can haul in a max tank setup, it also lowers its cargo when its fit for a max cargo setup. I'm arguing for a change that will make a difference in hauling capacity depending on how strong its defenses are. The specific amount it hauls isn't even on the table.

I'm arguing to give more power to the industrialist.

Aqriue wrote:
I just don't get the logic CCP has behind "specializing" the industrials when they could of just added more cargo space, min/max a decent amount of mid/lows depending with decent non-moon like align times and call it a day....an ammo industrial? an industrial with drones? I just don't get it, but still favors Gallente/Iteron 5 training
They didn't want to spend valuable development resources just yet to add new industrials. I feel it's something they should strongly consider doing eventually.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#48 - 2014-09-10 17:39:26 UTC
As so many others pointed out, working as intended.
You really should have considered a reverse psychology on this one, OP.

Rather than cry nerf, ask for a Buff. The Bustard has 5000 base cargo with 3 low slots. It's very tempting to fill them with expander rigs and modules too and get total haul to over 100K with a Bustard. If the T1 specialist haulers had enough base to stack on, people would do it.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#49 - 2014-09-10 17:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
So you are still promoting 'specialized cargo bays expanders', ... this will not happen, since it will for instance destroy all mining vessels without a heavy revamp for the benefit of ... nothing. And they said already they won't do it, all this jammering for nothing.

I agree with conformity for lore text, for most modules, where it makes sense, but not for all just out of principle. In this case it makes no sense and isn't worth the effort, not only 'devs time' but throwing everything over the cliff and forcing everyone to reconsider, re-buy, re-fit and change their outfits, for yous adding it to the list of 'stacking penalty = true'.

So, should cargo expanders also work on drone bays, ship maintenance, fleet hangar ? It's all for 'cargo' Shocked
Iain Cariaba
#50 - 2014-09-10 21:13:03 UTC
Apparently OP needs small, monosyllabic words to understand the concept behind the specialized cargo bays, but that's expected from TEST.

1. Max expanded Itty V can hold roughly 35k m3 of any cargo you care to put into it.
2. Max Epithal can hold roughly 65k m3 of only planetary commodities..
3. The highlighted portions are the balance.

Sorry about the miltisyllabic words, I tried to keep them as small as possible.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#51 - 2014-09-11 00:22:29 UTC
All this talk about planetary commodities holds. What ever happened to the Primae?

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-09-11 02:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Apparently OP needs small, monosyllabic words to understand the concept behind the specialized cargo bays, but that's expected from TEST.

1. Max expanded Itty V can hold roughly 35k m3 of any cargo you care to put into it.
2. Max Epithal can hold roughly 65k m3 of only planetary commodities..
3. The highlighted portions are the balance.

Sorry about the miltisyllabic words, I tried to keep them as small as possible.

A perfect example of someone standing right next to my point without even seeing it. Let's further examine this:

* Itty V with maximum tank can hold 7,250 m3 of any cargo you care to put into it.
* Epithal with maximum tank can hold 68,050 m3 of only planetary commodities.

Don't spend too much time on the highlighted portions, or you might miss the obvious discrepancy right next to them.
Oh and Max cargo Epithal can hold 69,710m3 of planetary commodities but it's a small difference.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#53 - 2014-09-11 03:39:34 UTC
I still don't see what the problem here is. Maybe this particular trade-off is too complicated for you to understand?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-09-11 03:50:32 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I still don't see what the problem here is. Maybe this particular trade-off is too complicated for you to understand?

"this particular tradeoff" which people keep bringing up isn't my point of contention at all. I'm trying to make it as clear as possible. I don't understand what you guys are missing here.

Itty V has to give up tank, align, warp stabs, and all that fancy stuff to get max cargo. Epithal can get max cargo without giving up any of that. And don't try to tell me their tank values are too dissimilar for comparison.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-09-11 04:06:40 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Itty V has to give up tank, align, warp stabs, and all that fancy stuff to get max cargo. Epithal can get max cargo without giving up any of that. And don't try to tell me their tank values are too dissimilar for comparison.

And in return, the Epithal only has to be completely useless at anything except for the narrow job of PI hauling.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#56 - 2014-09-11 04:08:10 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I still don't see what the problem here is. Maybe this particular trade-off is too complicated for you to understand?

"this particular tradeoff" which people keep bringing up isn't my point of contention at all. I'm trying to make it as clear as possible. I don't understand what you guys are missing here.

Itty V has to give up tank, align, warp stabs, and all that fancy stuff to get max cargo. Epithal can get max cargo without giving up any of that. And don't try to tell me their tank values are too dissimilar for comparison.



The Gallente got all the spec hulls because Itty 5 was dethroned.

Bestower - Amarr industrial 5, Six expanders, Three T1 rigs, 13x GSC has over 50,000 Universal cargo.
Caldari are still superior at 'end game' in hauling.
Mini got shafted. All their industrial hulls should have the Warp speed doubled.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-09-11 04:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Komi Toran wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Itty V has to give up tank, align, warp stabs, and all that fancy stuff to get max cargo. Epithal can get max cargo without giving up any of that. And don't try to tell me their tank values are too dissimilar for comparison.

And in return, the Epithal only has to be completely useless at anything except for the narrow job of PI hauling.

The important trade-off here, as several have pointed out already, is that the Epithal hauls more than the Itty V due to being specialized. This is how CCP envisioned it. It is the purpose of specializing them. They aren't supposed to have vastly different applied defenses.




Ocih wrote:
Mini got shafted. All their industrial hulls should have the Warp speed doubled.
Speak for yourself. I'll fly Minmatar any day. That sweet align is the best.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#58 - 2014-09-11 04:45:32 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

A perfect example of someone standing right next to my point without even seeing it. Let's further examine this:

* Itty V with maximum tank can hold 7,250 m3 of any cargo you care to put into it.
* Epithal with maximum tank can hold 68,050 m3 of only planetary commodities.

Don't spend too much time on the highlighted portions, or you might miss the obvious discrepancy right next to them.
Oh and Max cargo Epithal can hold 69,710m3 of planetary commodities but it's a small difference.

And you are still going the wrong way. The Max Tank normal industrial should be buffed, not the specialist ones nerfed.
If the max tank itty V could hold 25-30k of anything, and the max cargo could hold 50k of anything
And the max cargo Epithal could hold 15-20k of anything + 70k of PI

Then there would be no issue.

So lets give ALL industrials at least 5k base cargo, and a specialist hold or a fleet hanger. So they can ALL carry a decent amount when fitted for tank, and can all carry loads when fitted for cargo.
Lets actually buff the industrial role in space. It's not like Indy pilots are already nerfed by having no weapons after all.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#59 - 2014-09-11 04:59:07 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I'll put this in as few words as possible: how can both extremes be okay if being in the middle is not better?


I'll return the favor:
Specialization versus generalization.

The middle ground is easier to shoot at.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#60 - 2014-09-11 05:08:57 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Itty V has to give up tank, align, warp stabs, and all that fancy stuff to get max cargo. Epithal can get max cargo without giving up any of that. And don't try to tell me their tank values are too dissimilar for comparison.

And in return, the Epithal only has to be completely useless at anything except for the narrow job of PI hauling.

The important trade-off here, as several have pointed out already, is that the Epithal hauls more than the Itty V due to being specialized. This is how CCP envisioned it. It is the purpose of specializing them. They aren't supposed to have vastly different applied defenses.


Ocih wrote:
Mini got shafted. All their industrial hulls should have the Warp speed doubled.
Speak for yourself. I'll fly Minmatar any day. That sweet align is the best.


This whole post is silly. The trade-off you think is important is the only one you're capable of seeing and that's where the problem is. Open your eyes and this whole thread goes away.