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Average character skill points for PVP?

First post
Author
Nitchiu
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2014-09-08 23:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nitchiu
People talking about 1vs1 PvP are playing the wrong game. People saying Tippia trained wrong are wrong. Tippia is an auto-include by any competant FC. People saying you need huge amounts of SP to PvP probably all live in hisec and cry when their mining ship gets blown up.

All you need for PvP is a ship, some friends and a target. Don't even need guns or drones.

Edit: I meant 1vs1 not solo pvp
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#102 - 2014-09-08 23:53:55 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post .

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#103 - 2014-09-09 00:02:04 UTC
Tweek Etimua wrote:
It has been argued several thousand time that new player will not or can not, catch up to the consistant/bitter vet players when it comes to PVP. I do not beilive this is true. How ever there is truth in that you are going to be useless until you hit a certain amount of SP.

Assuming they are properly alocated. In the fallowing areas what is a good number of skill points to have for pvp?
Solo
Small gang
Big Gang
Tournament events

If you think Im being to broad feel free to post your opinions, as I'm sure you dont need me to tell you.



Fixed typo in thread title. ISD Ezwal.



You will always have a disadvantage, it's just that disadvantage gets smaller the more skills you train and the more experience you get.



baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#104 - 2014-09-09 02:19:24 UTC
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
As for the actual OP's question, you're getting a lot of stupid answers and bad advice, OP.

Technically, you only need enough skills to get in a ship to be somewhat useful. You don't need guns or tackle. You can just sit there and wait for the other guys to blow you up. The time it takes for them to do that (unless they were clever enough to save you for last) is time that the rest of your group isn't being attacked, so you're technically being useful (you're an EHP paperweight.) I don't think that's what you're asking, though.

Realistically ~10M SP if you know EXACTLY what to train or ~20M SP if you don't is a good rule of thumb for when to start PVPing if you want to PULL YOUR WEIGHT and not just go along for the ride.

Here's an anecdote that you might find enlightening: Sard Caid, a live-streamer and one of the best solo PVPers in the game, thought he'd make a series of videos on a new alt, to show that PVPing can be done with a low SP character. He knew exactly what to train, he trained the guy for ~ 2 months (iirc,) and then he ended up doing nothing but blow up over and over and over. Having all skills but one to V is one thing. Having no skills to V puts you at such a tremendous disadvantage that you'll probably quit out of frustration.


Clearly he wasn't as good as he thought he was.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2014-09-09 02:24:26 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
[Crucifier, Crucifier fit]Flyable in 2 days. Costs less than 5 mil, you can grind up 10 of these per day on level 1 missions very easily.

I would love to see a Baltec Derpifier Fleet in action.

That fit is really quite good for a new player. Thanks Baltec. Hope you don't mind if I recommend that to a few characters I know.


Its there to be used my good man.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2014-09-09 05:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
AkJon Ferguson wrote:
You can blather on all you want, but the people telling you that you're doing it wrong are spot on. You should listen to them.
Why should I listen to people who don't even understand the skill system and basic game mechanics, and who therefore can't point to anything I'm doing wrong? More than that, why should I listen to them when their every attempt at proving me wrong actually proves my entire point 100% right — it doesn't really speak well to their ability to form a good argument… Lol

Quote:
Here's an anecdote that you might find enlightening: Sard Caid, a live-streamer and one of the best solo PVPers in the game, thought he'd make a series of videos on a new alt, to show that PVPing can be done with a low SP character. He knew exactly what to train, he trained the guy for ~ 2 months (iirc,) and then he ended up doing nothing but blow up over and over and over. Having all skills but one to V is one thing. Having no skills to V puts you at such a tremendous disadvantage that you'll probably quit out of frustration.
…and yet, we've seen people with actual skill do the same thing and not blow up. It sounds like he simply overestimated what he could do — most likely from lack of (or just forgotten) experience — and spectacularly failed at picking his targets.
Winifred Running Goat
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2014-09-09 09:28:13 UTC
80mio sp

[b] no, i don't want more server load.

[u]WARNING: If you don’t post alot you will become “Inactive fa**ot” instead of “Bitter vet”[/u][/b]

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#108 - 2014-09-09 10:31:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[Crucifier, Crucifier fit]

Damage Control I
Drone Damage Amplifier I
Drone Damage Amplifier I

Limited 1MN Afterburner I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script

200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
200mm Light 'Scout' Autocannon I, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin I x3
Hobgoblin I x5
Hobgoblin I x1

Flyable in 2 days. Costs less than 5 mil, you can grind up 10 of these per day on level 1 missions very easily.


Id fit hull rigs.



As for everyone else, there is no debate that certain skills pay off to push to 5, these are t1 and t2 ship ship skills, fitting skills, sub cap navigation skills, and most weapon support skills (excluding, trajectory analysis 5, drone durability 5 and warhead upgrades 5). Ship skills will have a fair old effect on a 1v1.

Things like medium and large weapon specialisations are probably a waste and as has been debated earlier in the thread thermodynamics would be nice to have at 5 but a properly laid out ship will rarely yield more heat cycles over and above a thermo 4 toon. Though i did win a fight once due to my single ec-300 perma jamming my target so never bet against chance.

The thread is about what is and is not useful though and that depends on the fleet. What i find useless are those guys, when you have a couple of frigs engaging outside a plex, who bring a deimos which cant catch the hostiles and is so susceptible to various types of ewar that its just a km liability.

Theres always a place for low SP derptrons imo. Even if they have to offline a gun :)
Arun Tadaruwa
Drunkendis Order
#109 - 2014-09-09 17:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Arun Tadaruwa
I'm with Tippia, my SP set is focused on flying competently in as many roles as possible.

Doesn't matter if I don't have Interdictors V: as long as I can dump a bubble, I'm way more useful (or potentially harmful) to my fleet than whatever 200.000.000 SP battleship pilot in it.


Do all V skills make you more effective in a precise role?
Yes.

But does that marginal increase in effectiveness ultimately matter, to most people?
I don't think so.

Perfectly balanced 1v1 situations are an extremely rare occurrence, for me.
That is because I try to avoid them.

From my point of view, being able to fit around your opponent and cover whatever role required by any particular situation is much more important than having the ultimate skillset within a niche.

Because while the sum of all those small improvements may amount to a significant advantage, piloting skill, situational awareness, number advantage, fitting skill, game knowledge and ultimately pure casuality amount to a much, much greater factor.

The extra 2% L Blaster damage is nothing, compared to the skill acquired while spending the same amount of SP on a frigate hull and learning its strengths and weaknesses through practice.

That extra 4% speed is meaningless in front of a missclick.
That 100M SP disadvantage is a joke, when your opponent forgets his T2 ammo or half your corp warps on him.

If your particular playstyle requires you to have a very polished skillset, that's your business.
But don't try to dismiss people who play the game in a different way just because you don't like it.

Tippia's skillset is what mine will look like, in 5 years.

Alt posting because yes.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#110 - 2014-09-09 18:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
For any PVP all you need is the ability to join a fleet and some means to whore kill mails. A drone or a gun of some sort. A Velator is just fine for that.

As for SP? Whatever you start with plus a couple of hundred for that drone.

Mr Epeen Cool
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2014-09-09 20:04:40 UTC
I got 28 million SP and I still have no bloody idea how to use them to pvp xD
Gorski Car
#112 - 2014-09-09 20:31:56 UTC
94m sp. Curently maxing ewar supports. I main frigs and cruisers for solo pvp
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Gorski_Car

(Yes I know I have all shield comps at V I was stupid)

Collect this post

Clementina
The Scope
#113 - 2014-09-10 01:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Clementina
The point of thinking about the minimum number of skillpoints for PvP is that once you have trained to a minimum actual usefulness it is better to start PvPing. Remember that you train skills whether you are PvPing or not, but you only get experience PvPing by PvPing.

The reason tackling is recommended is that tackle is unambiguously useful to any fleet, is a very short skill train to get useful in, and requires only ships modules that you will need to train for anyway. Even tech 2 warp scramblers and webifiers do not require that many skillpoints. It is true that people may leave the hero tackle role, that is more a function of everything else being more skill point intensive. You train towards another role while flying a tackle frigate. Or if you really really like being hero tackle you can master it, flying interceptors, the Gallente electronic attack frigate, Gallente recon ships, interdictors, heavy interdictors, and those new fangled Mordus Legion ships.

Several other roles do have less skill point intensive and more skill point intensive ways to fulfill them. For example, a tech 1 logistics cruiser is much easier to get into than a tech 2 logistics cruiser.
The tech 2 version of the logistics ship really does require level 5's in Logistics, remote repairing, capacitor systems operation, capacitor management, either 4 or 5 in thermodynamics, and really good tanking skills.
The tech 1 version works well even with your cap, tanking, and thermodynamics skills at whatever you trained them to for mission running, your remote repairers and cruiser skill can be at level 3, and you don't even need logistics.
Ignore anyone who would tell you that the latter are scrubby skills. While they are spinning their Guardian in the station watching the counter glow soft gold because it has gotten so high and waiting a year and a half for Everything 5, you can be out in an Augoror helping your corpmates kill people, and once that year and a half elapsed you can buy a Guardian and be better than that other guy on day one.
Clementina
The Scope
#114 - 2014-09-10 01:49:55 UTC
Tippia's skillsheet is a thing of Beauty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think she is going for is the ability to fly whatever ship would change her fleet's chances for the better after seeing your fleet. So she doesn't need to train for any particular ship to uberness, competency is good enough since she plans to reship to something that is a counter to what you might be flying anyway.

I would recommend Advanced Weapons Upgrades 5 and Research Project Management 5 because no one is truly done learning.
Claud Tiberius
#115 - 2014-09-10 01:52:21 UTC
Azda Ja wrote:
Every veteran PvPer I'v spoken to here has told me the following:

Pilot Skill > Proper fit > SP.

But sometimes to have the proper fit, you need SP.

And you cannot have pilot skill without experience. And experience requires SP (in order you to use ships, modules, etc).

So it all comes down to skill points.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2014-09-10 04:14:57 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
Azda Ja wrote:
Every veteran PvPer I'v spoken to here has told me the following:

Pilot Skill > Proper fit > SP.

But sometimes to have the proper fit, you need SP.

And you cannot have pilot skill without experience. And experience requires SP (in order you to use ships, modules, etc).

So it all comes down to skill points.


Experience does not require SP. SP will not teach you how to fly a ship.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#117 - 2014-09-10 06:26:40 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
But sometimes to have the proper fit, you need SP.
…but since skill trumps a proper fit, you don't need SP to begin with.

Quote:
And you cannot have pilot skill without experience. And experience requires SP (in order you to use ships, modules, etc).
No, it does not. Experience requires time. Time just so happens to also give you SP. So the two correlate, but there is no actual connection — much less any type of requirement — between the two. They simply share the same source.
Arven Egdald
#118 - 2014-09-10 06:37:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
1) Maybe 900k SP
2) Maybe 900k SP
3) Maybe 900k SP
4) Maybe 30M SP at the very most

The reason for the jump in that last case is because we're talking about a scenario that has little to no correspondence to how the actual game works: an even-number match-up with a very specific selection of ships that is centred around rules about what is efficient and what isn't in order to create team balance in the equipment use. At that point, you want to squeeze every bit out of the ship with skills because there is no other way to compensate for the ships themselves, and 30M is roughly the amount of SP it takes to max out any given tournament ship (and even that is too much — it's 30M for every bit of equipment maxed out on a higher-end ship, and most pieces you've skilled for at that point will never be used in any kind of sane fit).

Incidentally, the tournament SP demonstrates that not only is it possible to “catch up” — it's inevitable. There are only ever 5 skill levels. Once you have them, you have caught up. Once you have them for everything you can fit on a ship, you have caught up with everyone who has, does, and ever will fly that ship… in fact, you've surpassed the vast majority of them (because training all to 5 is a horribly inefficient use of your time and SP so they will not have pushed it that far).

As others have mentioned, once you have your MWD and tackling equipment — the two pieces of kit needed to actually catch someone — everything else is just a matter of finding the right match-ups, both in terms of who you fly with and of who you fly against. The advantage older players have is that they have their team assembled already, and they have a good sense of what they can take on and what they can't.


KK

Tippia says to solo with 900k XP. EVE PRO 9.0 SUPER SUCCESS AWAITS
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2014-09-10 08:34:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Claud Tiberius wrote:
But sometimes to have the proper fit, you need SP.
…but since skill trumps a proper fit, you don't need SP to begin with.

Quote:
And you cannot have pilot skill without experience. And experience requires SP (in order you to use ships, modules, etc).
No, it does not. Experience requires time. Time just so happens to also give you SP. So the two correlate, but there is no actual connection — much less any type of requirement — between the two. They simply share the same source.


I would say experience requires experience.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#120 - 2014-09-10 08:58:03 UTC
Arven Egdald wrote:
KK

Tippia says to solo with 900k XP. EVE PRO 9.0 SUPER SUCCESS AWAITS

Nope.

baltec1 wrote:
I would say experience requires experience.
Well, sure, deutreolearning and all that. I'm referring more to how experience does will not tick in if you just play skill-queue online — you have to go out and spend time flying to actually figure out flying (essentially what you're saying). I suppose it could be worded better — after all, while both experience and SP come with time, it's not necessarily the same time spans in both cases.