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Logistics Proposal: Signature
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2014-09-08 09:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Problem is that this is working as intended. You bring more, and thus you win.



Taking no losses to an enemy fleet of 120 is not working as intended. Equally taking no losses to a subcap fleet of several hundred is also not working as intended.

Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We are effectively immune to small alliances
Just through sheer numbers of DPS ships, you're immune to small alliances.



It is not DPS that makes our fleets unkillable.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#22 - 2014-09-08 10:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


Problem is that this is working as intended. You bring more, and thus you win.



Taking no losses to an enemy fleet of 120 is not working as intended. Equally taking no losses to a subcap fleet of several hundred is also not working as intended.

Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We are effectively immune to small alliances
Just through sheer numbers of DPS ships, you're immune to small alliances.



It is not DPS that makes our fleets unkillable.


How much logi did you bring? We're they good, keeping all targets under fire repped?

That's not just the effect of logi, it's coordination and cooperative gas play in action. That *is* working as intended.

I am guessing a wild combination of you keeping them disrupted enough to never focus on a single target to get through your reps, combined with a poor enemy FC and some bad calls played heavily on that 120 man fleet failing to inflict even a single loss. No tacklers, nothing? I have not set foot in null in a long time, but that seems unlikely or the enemy was just bad.

More to the point, what would you do to prevent it? Bear in mind similar limits kinda need to be put on dps too, if you go for any sort of stacking penalty or similar.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2014-09-08 10:30:00 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


How much logi did you bring? We're they good, keeping all targets under fire repped?

That's not just the effect of logi, it's coordination and cooperative gas play in action. That *is* working as intended.

I am guessing a wild combination of you keeping them disrupted enough to never focus on a single target to get through your reps, combined with a poor enemy FC and some bad calls played heavily on that 120 man fleet failing to inflict even a single loss. No tacklers, nothing? I have not set foot in null in a long time, but that seems unlikely or the enemy was just bad.

More to the point, what would you do to prevent it? Bear in mind similar limits kinda need to be put on dps too, if you go for any sort of stacking penalty or similar.


We already have stacking penalties on DPS.

Like it or not logi makes our fleets invincible to smaller alliances and our capital blobs are unkillable even if you bring 1000 man strong battleship fleets(It is infact impossible to bring enough subcaps to do damage to a capital blob). Logi is what makes us unkillable and it must be looked at.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-09-08 13:51:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


How much logi did you bring? We're they good, keeping all targets under fire repped?

That's not just the effect of logi, it's coordination and cooperative gas play in action. That *is* working as intended.

I am guessing a wild combination of you keeping them disrupted enough to never focus on a single target to get through your reps, combined with a poor enemy FC and some bad calls played heavily on that 120 man fleet failing to inflict even a single loss. No tacklers, nothing? I have not set foot in null in a long time, but that seems unlikely or the enemy was just bad.

More to the point, what would you do to prevent it? Bear in mind similar limits kinda need to be put on dps too, if you go for any sort of stacking penalty or similar.


We already have stacking penalties on DPS.

Like it or not logi makes our fleets invincible to smaller alliances and our capital blobs are unkillable even if you bring 1000 man strong battleship fleets(It is infact impossible to bring enough subcaps to do damage to a capital blob). Logi is what makes us unkillable and it must be looked at.


Where is the stacking penalty on DPS for bringing more ships? At what point does more dps ship become un-effective?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2014-09-08 13:55:44 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Where is the stacking penalty on DPS for bringing more ships? At what point does more dps ship become un-effective?


Stacking penalties on heatsinks. Ship resistances massive reduce incomming fire. RR has no stacking penalties.


That aside, please tell us how you take on a boot fleet with subcaps when you cant even hurt them due to their reps?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-09-08 14:24:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Where is the stacking penalty on DPS for bringing more ships? At what point does more dps ship become un-effective?


Stacking penalties on heatsinks. Ship resistances massive reduce incomming fire. RR has no stacking penalties.


That aside, please tell us how you take on a boot fleet with subcaps when you cant even hurt them due to their reps?


In the current state of the game, I just don't engage it because the difference between losing the fight and inflicting no damage and losing the fight while inflicting some damage is irrelevant. Your SRP would always cover whatever I manage to kill while the smaller alliance SRP will bleed fast since they don't have the income level you have.

If they implement occupancy SOV, I still don't engage it and do my damage elsewhere because your cap fleet has no field to hold when SOV is decided by who control the farm and field in a system. I can keep messing with your systems for much longer than your cap fleet will bother rage jumping from systems to systems to catch me and de-escalate to something which can hunt me more effectively. At that point, I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2014-09-08 14:27:12 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.


Oh you will be.

Its a very simple fact, if you want to engage a large fleet then a logi nerf MUST happen or we will continue to see one sided slaughters.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-09-08 14:40:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.


Oh you will be.

Its a very simple fact, if you want to engage a large fleet then a logi nerf MUST happen or we will continue to see one sided slaughters.


You keep talking about one sided slaughter but every battle report I can read usually have billion ISK of damage on both side. The only recent BR I remember where the landslide were as big as you seem to suggest were the last 2 huge cap brawl, one being when titans died left, right and center and the one where you jumped to a node which could not take the load so you lost ship after ship while stuck in a tunnel. All the other ones seem to be about both side taking loss until one lose it's critical mass and have to retreat which can end up in a rather bloody operation skewing the KB in one direction.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2014-09-08 14:47:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.


Oh you will be.

Its a very simple fact, if you want to engage a large fleet then a logi nerf MUST happen or we will continue to see one sided slaughters.


You keep talking about one sided slaughter but every battle report I can read usually have billion ISK of damage on both side. The only recent BR I remember where the landslide were as big as you seem to suggest were the last 2 huge cap brawl, one being when titans died left, right and center and the one where you jumped to a node which could not take the load so you lost ship after ship while stuck in a tunnel. All the other ones seem to be about both side taking loss until one lose it's critical mass and have to retreat which can end up in a rather bloody operation skewing the KB in one direction.



Thats because you are looking at the fights where we have roughly even forces. Most fights these days end before the enemy even undocks, they stand down because it is impossible to hurt us. We do the same if we lack the logi, there simply isnt any point. The problem with logi has been building for the last four years to the point we are at now where we can deploy a wrecking ball fleet that is immune to any number of subcaps.

Logi must be looked at because as it stands it is impossible for a new power to enter the sov game even if CCP changes the mechanics.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#30 - 2014-09-08 15:19:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.


Oh you will be.

Its a very simple fact, if you want to engage a large fleet then a logi nerf MUST happen or we will continue to see one sided slaughters.


You keep talking about one sided slaughter but every battle report I can read usually have billion ISK of damage on both side. The only recent BR I remember where the landslide were as big as you seem to suggest were the last 2 huge cap brawl, one being when titans died left, right and center and the one where you jumped to a node which could not take the load so you lost ship after ship while stuck in a tunnel. All the other ones seem to be about both side taking loss until one lose it's critical mass and have to retreat which can end up in a rather bloody operation skewing the KB in one direction.



Thats because you are looking at the fights where we have roughly even forces. Most fights these days end before the enemy even undocks, they stand down because it is impossible to hurt us. We do the same if we lack the logi, there simply isnt any point. The problem with logi has been building for the last four years to the point we are at now where we can deploy a wrecking ball fleet that is immune to any number of subcaps.

Logi must be looked at because as it stands it is impossible for a new power to enter the sov game even if CCP changes the mechanics.



This man is 100% accurate.

I'm not sure how any of you are arguing this point.

Even if you compare EVE to other MMO's, a healer does not simply heal through 3-5 enemy players. They usually can heal through 1-2 enemy players.

Logistic effectiveness simply scales too well with ship resistance.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-09-08 15:36:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.


Oh you will be.

Its a very simple fact, if you want to engage a large fleet then a logi nerf MUST happen or we will continue to see one sided slaughters.


You keep talking about one sided slaughter but every battle report I can read usually have billion ISK of damage on both side. The only recent BR I remember where the landslide were as big as you seem to suggest were the last 2 huge cap brawl, one being when titans died left, right and center and the one where you jumped to a node which could not take the load so you lost ship after ship while stuck in a tunnel. All the other ones seem to be about both side taking loss until one lose it's critical mass and have to retreat which can end up in a rather bloody operation skewing the KB in one direction.



Thats because you are looking at the fights where we have roughly even forces. Most fights these days end before the enemy even undocks, they stand down because it is impossible to hurt us. We do the same if we lack the logi, there simply isnt any point. The problem with logi has been building for the last four years to the point we are at now where we can deploy a wrecking ball fleet that is immune to any number of subcaps.

Logi must be looked at because as it stands it is impossible for a new power to enter the sov game even if CCP changes the mechanics.


Where will you drop that wrecking ball if there is no central objectives to protect/attack? Will you spread it around in all systems on the border to have presence everywhere? Will those always be online? Do I really have to engage them or can I cause the required damage by killing only your miners/ratters?

As long as the SOV system is not based on somethign else than it is now, any change to capfleet/bootfleet/wreckingball/whatever someone else will come up with later will be useless because there is no point to dealing damage to you unless it's enough to win the field while still having enough people to also shoot down the objective and a alrge enough presence to also hold you off the very next day when you counter-attack with even more dudes because I just gave motivation to a bunch of dudes on your side to re-sign on because something is happening.

Inflicting more damage than I take is only relevant if I do so at a ration which is greater than the income disparity between the larger alliance and the smaller one. Doing 3x the ISK in damage is useless since you earn 40x more. I am still bleeding my SRP faster than you are unless I effectively crush your whole fleet every single time.

How many carrier does a caracal fleet need to kill before it start to sting the SRP of the large alliance/coalition? How often can the caracal side welp full fleet of them before they start touching the bottom of their pockets?

And this completely rely on the fact that you let me win the ISK war by flying lower efficiency ship than I do. What if your large fleet de-escalate to fight me in equivalent ship where each one of my kill is equal to one you do thus effectively preventing me from ever reaching the required ratio to ever put any real pressure on your SRP wallet which keep you in ships?

As long as there is a way for you to but the "ship lost" data in a column labeled as irrelevant, winning or losing the ISK war is useless. The number is smaller on my side but it still hurt more.

Logi aren't the problem with engaging you, your number is and CCP can't prevent you from flexing your "connection" muscles. You have enough friends to always be able to turn every battle into a battle where numbers will prevail. There is nothing the smaller side can do about the fact you have more friends. Tapping an out of game resource was a supper effective move and can't really be countered unless you somehow stop adapting. You can stop a mindless horde of enemy with different tactics to capitalize on his flaws, you can beat super soldier by overwhelming them. The overwhelming horde of monster patching flaws when they are discovered are an entire different problem as you have proven over the years. The guy who will beat you will have to have more friends because even if a crazy flaw was found in your force permitting a smaller force to completely annihilate yours, you would not die just then, They'd have to be you over and over again while every single time, you can patch the hole.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-09-08 15:49:44 UTC
Phaade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
I am no longer engaging a boot fleet so any current way of dealing with a fleet become available.


Oh you will be.

Its a very simple fact, if you want to engage a large fleet then a logi nerf MUST happen or we will continue to see one sided slaughters.


You keep talking about one sided slaughter but every battle report I can read usually have billion ISK of damage on both side. The only recent BR I remember where the landslide were as big as you seem to suggest were the last 2 huge cap brawl, one being when titans died left, right and center and the one where you jumped to a node which could not take the load so you lost ship after ship while stuck in a tunnel. All the other ones seem to be about both side taking loss until one lose it's critical mass and have to retreat which can end up in a rather bloody operation skewing the KB in one direction.



Thats because you are looking at the fights where we have roughly even forces. Most fights these days end before the enemy even undocks, they stand down because it is impossible to hurt us. We do the same if we lack the logi, there simply isnt any point. The problem with logi has been building for the last four years to the point we are at now where we can deploy a wrecking ball fleet that is immune to any number of subcaps.

Logi must be looked at because as it stands it is impossible for a new power to enter the sov game even if CCP changes the mechanics.



This man is 100% accurate.

I'm not sure how any of you are arguing this point.

Even if you compare EVE to other MMO's, a healer does not simply heal through 3-5 enemy players. They usually can heal through 1-2 enemy players.

Logistic effectiveness simply scales too well with ship resistance.


They can heal through more than 2 which is why small engagement are won by creating opportunity windows with CC and large engagement are won by creating too many different job to deal with so they can't follow through all of it. They also can run out of ressources preventing them from going on and on and on while EVE logi usually arrange for this to not happen. EVE has only 1 repping tool to cover any type of job while other MMO will have the healer make choice on how to deal with the load. Making them do errors which they can't always recover from in time before you score a kill.

If you want to go that way, make logi ship have some kind of link to the whole fleet or at least part of it so they can "watchlist" everybody and reach to damage they see and remove broadcast. You'll have people making mistakes when calling for reps over com/chat creating the opportunity window required.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#33 - 2014-09-08 16:21:19 UTC
When I first read the idea about signature with repair modules, I thought that you were talking about sig bloom when repairing something else... which doesn't seem that bad of an idea...

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-09-08 16:40:29 UTC
JAF Anders wrote:
When I first read the idea about signature with repair modules, I thought that you were talking about sig bloom when repairing something else... which doesn't seem that bad of an idea...


Can I bloom my enemy's sig while he is still at full HP before applying TP/web for easy blapping?
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#35 - 2014-09-08 16:52:45 UTC
Well, would it be more beneficial for the primary target to just turn on his MWD to bloom the sig?

Depends on the amount of reps vs damage, of course.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-09-08 17:00:05 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Well, would it be more beneficial for the primary target to just turn on his MWD to bloom the sig?

Depends on the amount of reps vs damage, of course.


I can't really control my enemy's usage of their MWD but I sure as hell can target them and apply reps where no damage has even being dealt just to bloom them. Repping your enemy is only bad if you are effectively repairing damage.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#37 - 2014-09-08 17:23:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Well, would it be more beneficial for the primary target to just turn on his MWD to bloom the sig?

Depends on the amount of reps vs damage, of course.


I can't really control my enemy's usage of their MWD but I sure as hell can target them and apply reps where no damage has even being dealt just to bloom them. Repping your enemy is only bad if you are effectively repairing damage.


I'm referring to the friendly pilot who is called primary by the enemy fleet.

If sig affects incoming reps, just turn on your MWD to improve the reps, and of course, incoming damage.

It's strange to me that turning on a propulsion module would improve remote repair modules, though.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#38 - 2014-09-08 17:25:07 UTC
Lots of things need looked at. I am not saying logi isn't an issue, just that it's current form is intended and is not broken. I think power projection is the bigger bear here, but support is problematic too.

The fact that there are stacking limits to modules like heat sinks does not mean there are stacking limits to DPS. Even if all logi could do was equal to a local rep, this problem would still exist as they can still be applied to any given ship many times over. That won't change, or should not, unless the number of ships able to apply DPS becomes limited as well.

Regardless, the largest issue keeping the uberblob from risking any significant loss is the fact that you always have the people to get every job done. You take no additional overhead from fielding such massive forces. You have almost no reason to field anything other than a cap or supercap, and those in such numbers as to blot out the sky. We have nothing but sky, and you blot it out. Just saying.

Any reduction in logi performance will help you more than it will a smaller group.

Personally, I think the answer is more usable aoe at all levels. Aoe inherently favors smaller groups, as hitting more ships with one shot applies more damage. Spreading more damage across ships pressures logi to make choices in who gets repped. Yes, you will break it with numbers, but even then you will be hitting yourself, forcing you to either specialize your tank and damage or spread out eventually to the point that logi needs to travel or also be spread out.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2014-09-08 17:29:25 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:



Where will you drop that wrecking ball if there is no central objectives to protect/attack? Will you spread it around in all systems on the border to have presence everywhere? Will those always be online? Do I really have to engage them or can I cause the required damage by killing only your miners/ratters?

The big fleets wont be going away. If things go to plan then we will a lot more condensed than today so forming a large fleet will be even easier. Wrecking ball will still be in use and we must plan for that in mind.


Frostys Virpio wrote:

Inflicting more damage than I take is only relevant if I do so at a ration which is greater than the income disparity between the larger alliance and the smaller one. Doing 3x the ISK in damage is useless since you earn 40x more. I am still bleeding my SRP faster than you are unless I effectively crush your whole fleet every single time.

How many carrier does a caracal fleet need to kill before it start to sting the SRP of the large alliance/coalition? How often can the caracal side welp full fleet of them before they start touching the bottom of their pockets?


You are ignoring the most important thing, moral. Welping your fleet against carriers with zero kills saps away moral very fast. If you are walking away with kills then you are getting something out of the engagement. In a war, the money never runs out first.

Frostys Virpio wrote:

And this completely rely on the fact that you let me win the ISK war by flying lower efficiency ship than I do. What if your large fleet de-escalate to fight me in equivalent ship where each one of my kill is equal to one you do thus effectively preventing me from ever reaching the required ratio to ever put any real pressure on your SRP wallet which keep you in ships?
Sounds a hell of a lot better than people not undocking at all.
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Logi aren't the problem with engaging you, your number is and CCP can't prevent you from flexing your "connection" muscles.


Logi is the very thing that stops people from killing us. It is what makes our capital blobs impossible to kill.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2014-09-08 17:33:31 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Any reduction in logi performance will help you more than it will a smaller group.


This is a myth. We already wipe out smaller groups with near no risk to ourselves because the logi we have means they cannot hurt us. Take away that logi and we will still be alphaing their ships away but the key difference is that they can destroy us in turn.