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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Server Issues During ATXII Day 7

First post
Author
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#21 - 2014-09-06 20:28:29 UTC
Sad
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-09-06 20:39:27 UTC
HTFU, can I have you're stuff etc etc? LOL LolLolLolLol

I have a Ph.D

Rain Al'Thor
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-09-06 20:40:26 UTC
Too late to change anything now, wouldn't be fair on Afterlife.

Pretty disappointed in CCP. Issues were identified very quickly after that match started and nothing was done. It's really not hard to stop a match.

Considering it's the first time on Eve history that your server logs show an issue I hope all ships destroyed will be reimbursed?
Maybe The Afterlife boys will give us the rematch we both deserve but CCP are unable to give us?

Good luck to Afterlife in the rest of the tournament. :-)
Corriel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#24 - 2014-09-06 20:59:07 UTC
yes, good luck to The Afterlife . The Afterlife did nothing wrong.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#25 - 2014-09-06 20:59:19 UTC
in a real boat race, where the 'race committe' screwed up, the race would be thrown out, and in the case of a tournamet a rematch would probably be held, or tiebreaker based on points previously acquired.

jusssayn ;)
Gfy Trextron
Soul Takers
Pen Is Out
#26 - 2014-09-06 21:02:19 UTC
They deserve at the very least, an explenation of the events announced during the tournament tomorrow, refund of tourney fee, free spot next year, and any prizes they would have recieved if they had won that match.
All imaginary or free items.

Marcius Decimus
BLISSA CORP
#27 - 2014-09-06 21:09:38 UTC
Rain Al'Thor wrote:
Too late to change anything now, wouldn't be fair on Afterlife.

Pretty disappointed in CCP. Issues were identified very quickly after that match started and nothing was done. It's really not hard to stop a match.

Considering it's the first time on Eve history that your server logs show an issue I hope all ships destroyed will be reimbursed?
Maybe The Afterlife boys will give us the rematch we both deserve but CCP are unable to give us?

Good luck to Afterlife in the rest of the tournament. :-)



Class act Shadow Cartel. Hey CCP, learn a lesson from this.

You can still have class. Own up to your mistake, it was YOUR fault. Using some wormy little clause in a space "contract" to assign blame to the party who is aggrieved is pretty low and demonstrates very poor class.
Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
#28 - 2014-09-06 22:05:22 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.

Wow.

Maybe when instructed otherwise a boxer should punch himself in the face before a bout just to check that they are capable of applying damage in the ring once the match starts?

As a viewer watching the stream it was clear from the offset that something was wrong.

The node being reset right before that match and the problems encountered during, and then they delay afterwards before the next match - are surely no coincidence.

I can imagine Shadow Cartel put alot of work and effort into what is meant to be a spectacle for CCP. Every team that participates would expect CCP to provide a level playing field. Clearly this wasn't the case today.

Players having their time spent annulled or disadvantaged by server side issues and then being presented with logical fallacies as validation for what occured, i can only assume must feel like a slap in the face and insulting from a company with a proven track record of saying the logs show nothing.

Concord Approved Trader

Black Widovv
Ars ex Discordia
#29 - 2014-09-06 22:53:08 UTC
WTB: "weapons check" skill book so I can train it after I finish undocking lvl 1

Sorry CCP "Our records show nothing."

Its unfortunate that this years alliance tourney is turning out the be the latest budget cut by CCP.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#30 - 2014-09-06 23:17:20 UTC
so if you participate in the AT a player has to go through a QA check list and check if the game is working as it should before the match starts?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2014-09-06 23:27:31 UTC
Hello again everybody. Now that the day is over I've had a little time to talk to the rest of the team.

We completely understand that having server issues in a tournament match feels terrible for the teams. You guys pour your blood, sweat and tears into your quest for victory.

The "match simulation taken as is" rule is there for very good reasons and will not be changing. We need to be able to find clear resolutions to matches no matter the circumstances, and this rule applies to everything from server issues to unexpected bugs to DDOSes and more. Rerunning a match is simply not an option, especially when we reach this point in the tournament where so many other teams rely on the results of each match.

Like Veritas said, we advise teams to test every part of their team compositions during the period after teleportation into PE1 and before warping into the arena. This is why our referee asks the teams if they are ready before we tell the competitors to warp.
In this case the fact that teams had no weapons other than drones meant that testing their damage before the warping becomes more problematic, and we'll be investigating what we can do to make that process easier for teams in the future.
We are definitely not attempting to assign blame to any team, as I really doubt that I would have caught this kind of thing if I was a team captain in this situation, and the fact that the match stands is not intended in any way as judgement against Shadow Cartel. They performed amazingly throughout this tournament.

Since the teams involved here had to endure a very negative experience and react to unpredictable circumstances during the match, we do want to provide them with some consolation. We know that nothing we can provide would make this match experience any less frustrating, but we want to at least do what little we can under the circumstances.
So both Shadow Cartel and Afterlife. will be receiving their entry plex back (on top of the 15 plex that they won for their tournament success) and an extra set of 10 Rattlesnake skins (on top of the skins that they are entitled to for their victories).

Once again, we really wish that both of these teams had not needed to endure such frustrating issues during the match and we consider both teams to be top tier competitors worthy of praise.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Johann Landier
Black Omega Security
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#32 - 2014-09-06 23:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Johann Landier
CCP Veritas wrote:
I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.



Ok in general that sounds good but I think the issues today seem to have exceeded the scope of this rule. Just a few thoughts on this:

1. CCP you need to have something in place to "review" a match that obviously had glitches and issues through out the match. I can understand not stopping the match but at the end there should have been a "hold" on the results and a review by the ref's. I don't think any team would be upset at that in the least. This is one of "your" biggest events every year and you must have systems in place to deal with it other then just "pressing on" and quoting some rule.

2. How do you "pre-check" a glitch that does not let someone see damage until it's in structure? How do the logi pilots "check this"... And I find further issue with the fact we can't seem to determine what a pre weapons check would entail. Should they have put the other ships into structure to find the damage issues? Maybe they cycled there mod's once but unless you actively get into a fight with your team mates I am not sure they could have uncovered this. Also if they could not have launched drones how would they have discovered that. The problem is I don't believe there is a "standard" established pre-check and as such it leaves to much open to way to much room for debate. Imagine your a pilot about to enter the tourney and what they are prepping for and all the ways this rule seems to be interpreted and what would you think?

3. It also seems that things were not so balanced. One team was more logi reliant then others and as such the damage issue does seem to make it more one sided and in favor of one over the other. On the surface this does not seem to have been a fair fight on many levels.

4. It feels like you "CCP" are blaming the players for what was a problem with your system by saying they should have noticed what was wrong with "your" system and told you....................

5. My hat's off to the two teams for how they have acted. The level of sportsmanship displayed by the team who lost is something I hope we could all display in a similar circumstance. That being said they put a lot of their time and money into preparing for this event and to me it seems they did not get a "fair shot"....While that is not the fault of the team that won I do feel the team who lost should not leave empty handed.

6. CCP we love your game and all the work you do but this does not pass the smell test here and as the AT is one of "your" biggest sponsored events you put on for "us" I would hope that maybe you take another look at this and the response you have given so far.



EDIT: While I was typing my wall-o-text CCP posted the above response including some form of compensation to the teams involved. Good job CCP and thank you for admitting that even you may not have discovered the issue in a "pre-check". I think had this been the response from the beginning then I think the issue would have been much less controversial. As said above it felt like CCP was placing the blame on the team for not finding what was wrong with your system. Anyways, thanks for the follow up and while I still think this is not a "fair" outcome as the issues did imbalance the results I do understand that maybe there is nothing that can be done at this point and at least the team got their PLEX back. I do think CCP should look at a "instant review" type mechanic for the future to prevent this.
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
#33 - 2014-09-06 23:56:50 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.

You`ve got to be flocking kidding. Are you for real? Do you even work at CCP or is that some troll that hijacked your account?

I was on last NEO and at every step of the way we were told, repeatldy: do not move, do not activate modules, do not launch drones etc etc etc under penalty of your ship blowing up.

AND NOW YOU'R TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2014-09-07 00:05:46 UTC
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.

You`ve got to be flocking kidding. Are you for real? Do you even work at CCP or is that some troll that hijacked your account?

I was on last NEO and at every step of the way we were told, repeatldy: do not move, do not activate modules, do not launch drones etc etc etc under penalty of your ship blowing up.

AND NOW YOU'R TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.


Once teams warp onto the field they are not allowed to move, activate modules or drop drones. Veritas is talking about the period of time after teleportation but before warping.

Since this appears to be an area where there is some confusion I'll look into adding some lines to the rules to make it more clear in the future.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Shnjago
Raging Cytokines
#35 - 2014-09-07 00:42:48 UTC
If I understand the CCP right, teams are supposed to do some sort of "regression testing" before fighting begins.

This may be problematic since QA activities of this kind are usually pretty sophisticated and may take quite some time. Also, it may be well outside of pilots' expertise.

Do you really expect pilots to check that every single module works as intended? DCII gives the amount of resists it should, faction ammo's damage is in expected range and split across damage types in a proper way, drones aren't forgetting their commands etc.? It could be nice to see such kind of checklist. I can only imagine surprise of a guy who just discovered his warp scrambler doesn't disable enemy's MWD because server isn't properly configured/restarted. The CCP's answer would probably be "well you should've checked it before the match starts".

If you guys aren't providing any guarantees that tournament game mechanics is identical to usual experience, the AT can be taken to a whole new level -- just bring some random glitches.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2014-09-07 00:59:30 UTC
how about a few prize ships?
Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
#37 - 2014-09-07 01:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Boom Boom Longtime
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Arch Stanton's Neighbour wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
I'm talking to the referee to clarify what should and shouldn't be done at the pre-warp beacons but in general shooting eachother a little bit is a good idea.

You`ve got to be flocking kidding. Are you for real? Do you even work at CCP or is that some troll that hijacked your account?

I was on last NEO and at every step of the way we were told, repeatldy: do not move, do not activate modules, do not launch drones etc etc etc under penalty of your ship blowing up.

AND NOW YOU'R TELLING THEM THEY SHOULD BE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES? MAKE UP YOUR MIND.


Once teams warp onto the field they are not allowed to move, activate modules or drop drones. Veritas is talking about the period of time after teleportation but before warping.

Since this appears to be an area where there is some confusion I'll look into adding some lines to the rules to make it more clear in the future.

Why not just admit to the truth of the server performance having an impact on the match? One could argue the playerbase is insulted by the suggestion of otherwise. Trying to shift the emphasis onto the players while retracting from what was the real issue is rather comical and evasive. If anybody from the CCP PR dept wishes to enlighten the community as to why any of these assertions might be wrong, it'd be welcome

Concord Approved Trader

Jazz Caden
Convicts and Savages
#38 - 2014-09-07 01:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazz Caden
I would like to understand how it is "not an option" to replay a match, that seems like something everyone on stream would be willing to wait around for and wouldn't push the day's schedule back more than the random technical issues do almost every day of the AT stream. ( considering the final match on any given AT weekend ends about 1 1/2 to 2 hours later than initially expected anyways)

Technical mistakes are made all the time, that doesn't mean that CCP or the teams should have to suffer bc of them. And its not as if people really care as long as the teams are all given a fair chance to participate.

<3
Naughty Cargo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-09-07 02:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Naughty Cargo
Gfy Trextron wrote:
They deserve at the very least, an explenation of the events announced during the tournament tomorrow, refund of tourney fee, free spot next year, and any prizes they would have recieved if they had won that match.
All imaginary or free items.



Obviously the items have been all sorted and plex refunded and whatnot, but I agree something should be said. What really disappointed me was that watching, no comment was made. Not one comment on the stream, even though twitch chat was alight with complaints and calls out. Obviously it is all just an unfortunate mistake that just happened to lead to a very disappointing turn of events. :/

A bad day for Shadow Cartel, what with the incursion in home system too, but hats off to the team <3 You put a lot into this guys, and you held your own right up to the end. <3 Asa <3

Let's hope, for the sake of other teams more than anything, something like this can't happen again. Please sort it out CCP, cause this sorta puts a dampener on what was, and should be, a highlight of the EVE calender.
Marcius Decimus
BLISSA CORP
#40 - 2014-09-07 03:16:30 UTC
Well, I have to withdraw my concerns. It does suck this happened, but CCP has responded and backed off the whole "blame the victim schtick" they originally were pressing.

I do concur with other posters, replay may have been a possibility or halting play in mid-stream, but I also understand that there were likely a lot of dynamics involved in trying to reimburse players, avoid the problem of knowing the opposing teams fits, and then trying to restart a match. There are some programming issues here I am sure that just cannot be resolved with a double click.

I am glad they refunded entry fees, that was a good move.