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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

First post
Author
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#421 - 2014-09-02 21:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Amak Boma wrote:
theres solution

1. rollback hyperion
2. test the all functionality on tranquility
3. listen to players
4. players approve hyperion
5. hyperion goes live servers
6. if something is wrong point 1


Only 2 major parts need to be rolled back, the mass-based jump distances and the frigate WHs. Rest of the patch didn't harm anything I can see. The overview hiccup was fixed already, and they are already decreasing spawn rates on these new WH connections. Everything else isn't whats causing mass exodus from WHs to K-space.



I also second this. The rebalance of wh effects was definitely needed. Coming from someone living in a blackhole we applaud the changes made to it. The burner missions I have no say as I have not run them. Everything else would have been fine had you not implemented A) mass based jump range and B) frig only wh's. Roll these two away and you might have one of the single highest acceptance for an update ever. With them and you have probably the second most hated expansion in the game (short of that whole thing of station walking....)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#422 - 2014-09-02 21:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
Moloney wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Amak Boma wrote:
theres solution

1. rollback hyperion
2. test the all functionality on tranquility
3. listen to players
4. players approve hyperion
5. hyperion goes live servers
6. if something is wrong point 1


Only 2 major parts need to be rolled back, the mass-based jump distances and the frigate WHs. Rest of the patch didn't harm anything I can see. The overview hiccup was fixed already, and they are already decreasing spawn rates on these new WH connections. Everything else isn't whats causing mass exodus from WHs to K-space.


This ^

Fire Fozzie.

Go over you test plan / process changes based on your new development cycles (let me guess - agile?!) because not a single change (other than ******* wormholes) works.


I also second this. The rebalance of wh effects was definitely needed. Coming from someone living in a blackhole we applaud the changes made to it. The burner missions I have no say as I have not run them. Everything else would have been fine had you not implemented A) mass based jump range and B) frig only wh's. Roll these two away and you might have one of the single highest acceptance for an update ever. With them and you have probably the second most hated expansion in the game (short of that whole thing of station walking....)


Few points, definately not in favour of the fire Fozzie meme, he is the face of the changes, not always the cause, and because wormhole space has not been touched for so long, we all expected whatever happened to unbalance things for a while, just not this much. He is probably as surprised as we are, and trying to understand what went so wrong. He and his team, will be the solution to our problems, not an adversary.

I personally believe that the main changes, after tweaking and amendments, smoothing off the rough edges and the database reflecting changes, will balance out, but this needs to happen very quickly, possibly tweak the benefits, to keep things alive and tune them to a new level when all the numbers are in. Corbexx's research will be invaluable here.

Frigate wormholes are definately reduced, I still do not quite see how they help, but if they led to some form of new space with new things to learn and discover, we would have been ecstatic. Maybe room for hope there?

Mass spawn, is irredemable, it contains the most horrific concept, that it is ok for players to be sacrificed to blind luck.
Kill it, burn it, and bury the ashes and pray no one remembers it. Apart from the company, who remember to never bring that concept back to life again. EVER

Not only that it compounds all the other effects and makes them almost unbalanceable.

Get rid of that, keep on top of things, and the expansion will probably, overall, work out well.
Without doing that?

Not a chance in hell.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Lord Xyon
Team Hemi
#423 - 2014-09-03 13:52:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Xyon
The Frig wormholes were something I was looking forward to before the patch. I like Frigate warfare, it can be really fun fast and exciting. I envisioned this as every couple weeks maybe once a week I would have a frigate only wormhole. About the same as I get a rogue wormhole.

I am a small corp and I live in lower class wormholes

After every single day since the patch I have had once of these. Only once has it gone to another W space the rest have all gone to null.

Day 1, Excited, ok I got a frig only wormhole to a C3, 3 of us on lets see whats on the other side. 3 domi's running sites, lets see we got 3 frigs, nothing going to happen here.
Day 2, Null sec, No one out there, empty space.
Day 3, Null Sec, No one out there, empty space.
Day 4, Null Sec, Someone out there mining. Oh they seen us in local and POS'ed up.
Day 5 and every day since, null sec, didn't even bother jumping through. We have all seen null sec holes before and we all know if they see you in local they typically just POS up or call for a Cyno. Attitude now Stupid frig holes. Put a scout on them tie up an alt is all they are good for. At least before with normal null sec holes and me having a high sec static we would see null sec try to move indy ships through trying to get loot to Jita. I am not seeing Null sec people even jumping in seeing if anything is around.

I think frigate holes could have been fun but really all I am seeing now in lower class holes is a new frigate only Static. I did manage to get a kill this weekend in a frigate but came in through their static. Not a frigate hole. Pretty much every hole I jumped into looking for targets had a frigate only wormhole. I didn't bother going through them. They quickly became pointless.

I guess the thought for me was frigate holes could be like a fine 20 year old single malt scotch, something you could get a lot of fun out of, but they were rare and mysterious and when they appeared you took advantage of them and enjoyed them. However they were deployed, like gallons of mad dog 20/20. Mad Dog is $1 cheap drunk usually hobo's and broke college kids buy.

Personally I would really cut back the spawn rate of these things. Like I said it had potential but now after a week of every single day, they are pretty much useless and annoying

Edit:
Side note, I do like all the other changes. Excepts as other have said, I am not seeing any new sigs or sites. Not that I am going to run them with the swiss cheese wormholes are now.
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
#424 - 2014-09-03 14:07:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aureus Ahishatsu
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Few points, definately not in favour of the fire Fozzie meme, he is the face of the changes, not always the cause, and because wormhole space has not been touched for so long, we all expected whatever happened to unbalance things for a while, just not this much. He is probably as surprised as we are, and trying to understand what went so wrong. He and his team, will be the solution to our problems, not an adversary.

I personally believe that the main changes, after tweaking and amendments, smoothing off the rough edges and the database reflecting changes, will balance out, but this needs to happen very quickly, possibly tweak the benefits, to keep things alive and tune them to a new level when all the numbers are in. Corbexx's research will be invaluable here.

Frigate wormholes are definately reduced, I still do not quite see how they help, but if they led to some form of new space with new things to learn and discover, we would have been ecstatic. Maybe room for hope there?

Mass spawn, is irredemable, it contains the most horrific concept, that it is ok for players to be sacrificed to blind luck.
Kill it, burn it, and bury the ashes and pray no one remembers it. Apart from the company, who remember to never bring that concept back to life again. EVER

Not only that it compounds all the other effects and makes them almost unbalanceable.

Get rid of that, keep on top of things, and the expansion will probably, overall, work out well.
Without doing that?

Not a chance in hell.


Updated my original post since It included more people's quotes than i wanted, in particular the fire Fozzie movement. Regardless hopefully they have some statistics to show how much activity has diminished since this update. I know personally the majority of my WH activities now have degraded to nothing but gas harvesting and PI. That sucks.... however at the same time if i don't have the means to secure our wh, or roll for a new connection I don't have a whole lot of options.

O and as a general rule this is the scenario that has gone down nearly every time we have one of these frig wh's.

Scout "scanned down new sig, warping to it. Ok it's a k162"
Fleet "where does it go?"
Scout "checking............it's a frig whole......"
Fleet "..........son of a @#$%^&*&^%$#@*&!!!!!!!!!! Well thanks everyone for logging in. See you tomorrow."
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#425 - 2014-09-03 18:14:17 UTC
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Few points, definately not in favour of the fire Fozzie meme, he is the face of the changes, not always the cause, and because wormhole space has not been touched for so long, we all expected whatever happened to unbalance things for a while, just not this much. He is probably as surprised as we are, and trying to understand what went so wrong. He and his team, will be the solution to our problems, not an adversary.

I personally believe that the main changes, after tweaking and amendments, smoothing off the rough edges and the database reflecting changes, will balance out, but this needs to happen very quickly, possibly tweak the benefits, to keep things alive and tune them to a new level when all the numbers are in. Corbexx's research will be invaluable here.

Frigate wormholes are definately reduced, I still do not quite see how they help, but if they led to some form of new space with new things to learn and discover, we would have been ecstatic. Maybe room for hope there?

Mass spawn, is irredemable, it contains the most horrific concept, that it is ok for players to be sacrificed to blind luck.
Kill it, burn it, and bury the ashes and pray no one remembers it. Apart from the company, who remember to never bring that concept back to life again. EVER

Not only that it compounds all the other effects and makes them almost unbalanceable.

Get rid of that, keep on top of things, and the expansion will probably, overall, work out well.
Without doing that?

Not a chance in hell.


Updated my original post since It included more people's quotes than i wanted, in particular the fire Fozzie movement. Regardless hopefully they have some statistics to show how much activity has diminished since this update. I know personally the majority of my WH activities now have degraded to nothing but gas harvesting and PI. That sucks.... however at the same time if i don't have the means to secure our wh, or roll for a new connection I don't have a whole lot of options.

O and as a general rule this is the scenario that has gone down nearly every time we have one of these frig wh's.

Scout "scanned down new sig, warping to it. Ok it's a k162"
Fleet "where does it go?"
Scout "checking............it's a frig whole......"
Fleet "..........son of a @#$%^&*&^%$#@*&!!!!!!!!!! Well thanks everyone for logging in. See you tomorrow."


Hopefully, Corbexx can keep this in their focus, without the Mass spawn, there is the hope of getting some balance, the reduction in the number of frigate holes is certainly a help, and C4 space could work if it was not russian roulette to close them. Yes there definately needs to be a long hard look at the rewards after hyperion, and hopefully a settled balance can be reached, and things become realistic again as a home.

The mass spawn though, while it remains, will defeat any attempt to balance things, it is just so disruptive and toxic at it's core that no amount of tweaking will ever fix it.

I know that this is someones baby, they put their heart and soul into it's creation, and they probably really thought it was a good idea, and in all our best interests in the long term.

Unfortunately things have not worked out that way.

So addressed to whoever has the ability to decide, it is not that anyone made a mistake, you felt you needed to change the balance, we can understand that, but this creation, the mass spawn change, although it seems as if it is not such a powerful adjustment, is in such a finely balanced environment,-like a swiss watch that has ticked steadily for so long,- tools that would be suitable for normal engineering changes, are like trying to adjust fine complex equipment like a fine Rolex, by tapping the balance wheel with a hammer and chisel, it just breaks everything beyond any hope of success.

Please remove this, and you have some hope of balancing out the others to a tolerable level, and we may be better off, in time, than we were before hyperion.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#426 - 2014-09-03 18:52:04 UTC
As many of you will have noticed, we deployed the addition of a new line of text in the show-info box to indicate the relative sizes of wormholes in a patch yesterday.
Our art team is also working on a visual indicator in the form of an extra effect around the outside of wormholes (similar to the effect that can be seen on the EVE Gate wormhole in the Origins trailer) that changes colour based on the size of ships that can pass through a wormhole.

A non-final version of this visual change can now be seen on our Singularity test server. Our art team is watching for feedback on the visual changes in this thread.

Thanks.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Naglerr
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#427 - 2014-09-03 20:11:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As many of you will have noticed, we deployed the addition of a new line of text in the show-info box to indicate the relative sizes of wormholes in a patch yesterday.
Our art team is also working on a visual indicator in the form of an extra effect around the outside of wormholes (similar to the effect that can be seen on the EVE Gate wormhole in the Origins trailer) that changes colour based on the size of ships that can pass through a wormhole.

A non-final version of this visual change can now be seen on our Singularity test server. Our art team is watching for feedback on the visual changes in this thread.

Thanks.


The new line of text is a good initial pass to correct what should have been an obvious shortcoming. The addition of a graphical indication of the wormhole size is a great long term solution. Would it be possible to remove the obvious text indicating size from the wormhole descriptions following this graphical update? In any event, thanks for considering the feedback provided on this issue and making adjustments as a result.
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#428 - 2014-09-03 21:47:33 UTC
These changes feel like the perfect implementation of how to get people to stop living in wormhole space. Time to crack a bottle of champagne if that was the goal, because you knocked this one out of the park.
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox
The Serenity Syndicate
#429 - 2014-09-04 04:27:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As many of you will have noticed, we deployed the addition of a new line of text in the show-info box to indicate the relative sizes of wormholes in a patch yesterday.
Our art team is also working on a visual indicator in the form of an extra effect around the outside of wormholes (similar to the effect that can be seen on the EVE Gate wormhole in the Origins trailer) that changes colour based on the size of ships that can pass through a wormhole.

A non-final version of this visual change can now be seen on our Singularity test server. Our art team is watching for feedback on the visual changes in this thread.

Thanks.


Great work!

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
P I R A T
#430 - 2014-09-04 14:26:27 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
IF CCP can create a pos module for clone "swapping".. this is easily a 10/10.

If they cannot, this is a 1/10.
Allow the JC options for Rorquals in wh ?

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.

Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#431 - 2014-09-04 17:20:50 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
IF CCP can create a pos module for clone "swapping".. this is easily a 10/10.

If they cannot, this is a 1/10.
Allow the JC options for Rorquals in wh ?


It's really such a simple solution that it boggles why it hasn't been enabled.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#432 - 2014-09-06 20:08:30 UTC
My semester started shortly after Hyperion dropped, so I haven't been nearly as active as I was pre-Hyperion, but it seems like more people have frigate holes at any given time than don't. I could be wrong, my sample size is pretty small.
I really don't understand what they are supposed to do, besides be an annoyance. I was going to do some mining in my home hole while working on Calculus today, but I logged in and saw that we have a frigate hole so I am cloaked up, with Eve minimized, doing homework instead of doing anything in game. Without someone on each of the 3 other wormholes we have right now, plus the frigate hole, I'm not going to take a mining ship into a belt. So, for the 16 hour lifetime of that damned annoyance I am doing effectively nothing since the only thing that is likely to come through that wormhole is a scout who will likely open any wormholes that aren't already open from whoever first opened it. I'm not concerned with the frigate hole itself, rather what the frigate hole means for all the other wormholes.
An associate of mine lost an Exhumer yesterday because a frigate hole opened their static, a ship came in and either cloaked or logged for most of the day, and when he was balls deep in the belt they warped in and popped in. There was no "fun" element to it, no probes to give him warning while spamming D-scan, no new sigs, just the buzzer. The whole point of telling that short story is to point out that, even being proactive and spamming D-scan, he had effectively no chance to prevent the loss of his ship.
These holes are, as another associate pointed out, a 16hr "**** block" to people that don't have the online manpower to watch each hole and cloak a Falcon on-grid just to mine or run sites. When you combine that with the extra effort/risk required to close the holes after the frig hole despawns and most of my available backup is unavailable, it really makes me second guess logging on unless an op is going down. Hyperion is "bad" because it's changes, when combined with other things, are bad and not because Hyperion itself is actually bad.

If these holes were inter-Kspace I think there would be a fair amount of content brought about, you could scan one down and jump a gang of frigs deep into low or null and go hunting, but bringing them into wormholes is a big mistake in my opinion.

Fozzie, we have had our differences but, as was stated earlier, you are only the face of the changes and not necessarily the creator of them. So, my take on frigate holes is burn them with fire, get them out of wormholes, they are doing more harm than good. Especially the wormhole-wormhole connections, the only thing that a wormhole group is likely to send through a frig hole is a scout, if they're interested in PvP they'll leave him there and come back through K-space later. This isn't a content creator, it's an ambush tool.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#433 - 2014-09-07 21:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Keep the feedback coming our way. Thanks.

You've effectively relegated gameplay in EVE to nothing larger than frigates:

• New warp mechanics that benefit frigates and penalize anything larger than destroyers...
• Low-sec/Faction warfare that is entirely geared towards frigates…
• High-sec/Burner missions that are frigate-only

I won't even touch base on the wormhole changes in Hyperion, since these are an unmitigated disaster for the most part. You're not creating content… you're not creating conflict… you are completely destroying EVE.

+1 on further eliminating paying subscribers from the roster.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
#434 - 2014-09-07 22:51:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
As many of you will have noticed, we deployed the addition of a new line of text in the show-info box to indicate the relative sizes of wormholes in a patch yesterday.
Our art team is also working on a visual indicator in the form of an extra effect around the outside of wormholes (similar to the effect that can be seen on the EVE Gate wormhole in the Origins trailer) that changes colour based on the size of ships that can pass through a wormhole.

A non-final version of this visual change can now be seen on our Singularity test server. Our art team is watching for feedback on the visual changes in this thread.

Thanks.


Fozzie
please consider removing the text describing the mass allowance, it's too much hand-holding and breaks immersion and wspace mood. I liked it as a transient solution for the frig K162 hole problem, but as you guys are brilliantly adding a visual effect to each mass restriction, we won't need the text anymore.
I really love the wormhole colors thing, Penny took the time to research them and I like this meta, as many have figured out which hole names led to which classes.
Now I see a hole allows only small ships, oh C1; dangerous unknown allows larger ships, oh C4. That's too easy and a bit disappointing. Let players have the effort of researching and discovering.
we're playing EvE afterall.

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"

Saavik Ambraelle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#435 - 2014-09-08 18:05:42 UTC
The frigate wormholes are too much. There's literally no use for them. If I wanted frigate pvp, I would go to lowsec where I'm a lot less likely to get blobbed by T3s and podded. All they do for me is clutter up Tripwire with crap.

Intoxication is the most effective of warp scramblers.

Moo Moocow
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#436 - 2014-09-08 19:56:32 UTC
Saavik Ambraelle wrote:
The frigate wormholes are too much. There's literally no use for them. If I wanted frigate pvp, I would go to lowsec where I'm a lot less likely to get blobbed by T3s and podded. All they do for me is clutter up Tripwire with crap.


^^ This..

If I wanted to fly frigs I would. I actually like flying different ships and variety is a great thing.

I can fly frigs well on all my toons and I still don't fly them in wormholes. I only fly them in low sec or null sec.

btw uncollapsible wormholes go against what I used to love about wormholes...

the fact you can control your own little system no matter what size your corp :)
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
#437 - 2014-09-10 16:31:28 UTC
Holes that don't collapse.
Heresy.

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2014-09-11 09:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Either remove the frigate holes or do one of the following:

1. Add a subsystem that reduces the mass of a T3 to frigate size
2. Introduce T3 frigates

As they are, they're an annoyance and don't add anything to the game. It's bad game design and you should feel bad ,CCP.
Steven Hackett
Ehefkae
#439 - 2014-09-11 16:06:31 UTC
Moo Moocow wrote:
Saavik Ambraelle wrote:
The frigate wormholes are too much. There's literally no use for them. If I wanted frigate pvp, I would go to lowsec where I'm a lot less likely to get blobbed by T3s and podded. All they do for me is clutter up Tripwire with crap.


^^ This..

If I wanted to fly frigs I would. I actually like flying different ships and variety is a great thing.

I can fly frigs well on all my toons and I still don't fly them in wormholes. I only fly them in low sec or null sec.

btw uncollapsible wormholes go against what I used to love about wormholes...

the fact you can control your own little system no matter what size your corp :)

^this and ^^this

A frienly word of advise.. If you bash someones head in and wants them to survive, you should take them to the ER and not just apply a loose bandage.. (Yes, I am refering to you trying to un-**** the bad implementation of this bad feature)
Maker Atavuli
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#440 - 2014-09-11 17:37:36 UTC
My corp is living in a C3 WH with a null static. Honestly the frig holes just tie up an account to watch while we do our normal daily activities. Most of them go to 0.0 anyway which is pointless if you want PVP. Even more useless are the frigate holes into C5 and C6 space. What were you thinking we would do take most of our guys out in the most lightly armored ships and attack a POS ? Sleepers ? Really if your goal was to just make living in the most hostile environment in the game WORSE you hit the nail on the head. As many things as there are that are truly broken in Wspace, maybe you could consider fixing those issues first before you add things that are not needed or wanted. Consider fixing the abysmal respawn rate on anoms in lower class chains. POS revamp. I love EVE and have a lot of respect for the developers but guys you missed on this one.

I am NOT crazy they made me take my medication this morning!