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War Decs as a griefing tool

First post
Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#541 - 2014-09-01 14:26:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Having wardec immunity is already a massive benefit over player corps. An 11% tax is hardly all that terrible given the average corp tax is 10%. Bumping it up to 20% would give you a reason for leaving an NPC corp.
So why do the NPC corps have to take a nerf but wardeccers who go after the weakest possible targets so they have minimal risk don't? Why not make NPC corps less appealing, and at the same time look at making it more beneficial for a wardeccer to go after a challenging target and less beneficial to go after a weaker one?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#542 - 2014-09-01 14:33:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The risk of fighting an industrial corps is minimal, and the reward (as shown by many merc groups) is a 95+% efficiency and heaps of loot. The risk of taking on a competent PvP group is considerably higher, and the chances of a high efficiency and good loot considerably less.


Again, you need to get the concept of "player choices" drilled into your thick cranium. Target selection, ship fitting - these are all player choices and don't warrant intervention from CCP. And you have yet to argue that they do, and you have yet to suggest a better system then what currently exists.

If fighting an Industrial corp is "low risk" it's only because the Industrial corps choose to make it that way. No reason for CCP to do anything about it.

Lucas Kell wrote:
So I'll repeat my opinion: wardecs should be more rewarding when taking on a challenge, and less rewarding when going after soft targets, with the end result being that wardeccers choose to pick fights with tougher targets.


Again, your opinion is wrong. The reward is up to the players - if they want KMs, they'll get more reward going after "soft targets". If they want "guudfites" they'll get that reward deccing other "mercs" (and there are indeed groups that do this).

Lucas Kell wrote:
Concord no longer being tankable for example [high sec dwellers in general vs gankers]. Mining barges being balanced out [Miners vs gankers]. New exploration type ships [Exploration site runners vs hunters]. Crimewatch changes [PvE players vs bait gankers]. Stuff like that.


Thanks, this is exactly what I wanted. You're not listing "classes of players", you're listing career choices (which anyone can train into and perform) and overall game balances. Exploration ships were balanced not with "runners vs hunters" in mind but because exploration ships were lacking before. Mining barges were balanced not with "miners vs gankers" in mind but because the mining barge line was a mess. There are no "player classes" in EVE. :) And I challenge you to find any DEV quotes to back up your assertions. :)

Lucas Kell wrote:
]No, I just keep my responses to trolls minimal to save time.


Cop out. Cool

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#543 - 2014-09-01 14:35:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Having wardec immunity is already a massive benefit over player corps. An 11% tax is hardly all that terrible given the average corp tax is 10%. Bumping it up to 20% would give you a reason for leaving an NPC corp.
So why do the NPC corps have to take a nerf but wardeccers who go after the weakest possible targets so they have minimal risk don't? Why not make NPC corps less appealing, and at the same time look at making it more beneficial for a wardeccer to go after a challenging target and less beneficial to go after a weaker one?


Because this isn't how EVE Online works.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#544 - 2014-09-01 14:36:22 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Again, you need to get the concept of "player choices" drilled into your thick cranium. Target selection, ship fitting - these are all player choices and don't warrant intervention from CCP. And you have yet to argue that they do, and you have yet to suggest a better system then what currently exists.

If fighting an Industrial corp is "low risk" it's only because the Industrial corps choose to make it that way. No reason for CCP to do anything about it.
PErsonal attacks aside, I've covered this one multiple times. Yes, it's their choice, but so is the choice of target. There will ALWAYS be a weakest target and that's what the wardeccers would always aim for, because there is no BENEFIT to taking a challenge. Why not provide them a benefit for doing so? You are whining on about player choice, so give players a REASON to choose something better.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#545 - 2014-09-01 14:37:57 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Because this isn't how EVE Online works.
So EVE shouldn't give out a better reward for taking more risk? Thanks for explaining. Who are you again?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#546 - 2014-09-01 14:42:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Having wardec immunity is already a massive benefit over player corps. An 11% tax is hardly all that terrible given the average corp tax is 10%. Bumping it up to 20% would give you a reason for leaving an NPC corp.
So why do the NPC corps have to take a nerf but wardeccers who go after the weakest possible targets so they have minimal risk don't? Why not make NPC corps less appealing, and at the same time look at making it more beneficial for a wardeccer to go after a challenging target and less beneficial to go after a weaker one?


Its not the wardeccers fault the corp they chose is a pushover, they can't know what any corp is like before a wardec.

I have had people wardec my solo corp a few times now to take on my tower thinking it was going to be easy only to find the production tower became a Dickstar and they died horribly.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#547 - 2014-09-01 14:44:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
PErsonal attacks aside


Just remember who opened that door, Lucas. :)

Lucas Kell wrote:
I've covered this one multiple times. Yes, it's their choice, but so is the choice of target. There will ALWAYS be a weakest target and that's what the wardeccers would always aim for, because there is no BENEFIT to taking a challenge. Why not provide them a benefit for doing so? You are whining on about player choice, so give players a REASON to choose something better.


How would you define "challenging" target in an objective way, and what would be the "benefit" of taking on said "challenge"? You haven't provided any of these answers, and until you do, you have no argument, just hot air and butthurt over emergent gameplay and content.

The whole premise of your argument is that PvPers should only bother with other PvPers and should leave those innocent, "defenseless" carebears alone and that CCP should change the game to protect those carebears. This will never happen in EVE Online, and CCP has posted in this thread saying as much to you.

You're literally beating your head against a brick wall hoping it'll move. Good luck with that broski.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#548 - 2014-09-01 14:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Because this isn't how EVE Online works.
So EVE shouldn't give out a better reward for taking more risk? Thanks for explaining. Who are you again?


Now look who's misrepresenting other people's statements. :)

Hypocrite much, kid? Cool

And BTW I'm Xuixien, and I'm better than you in every way. Lol

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#549 - 2014-09-01 14:46:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Having wardec immunity is already a massive benefit over player corps. An 11% tax is hardly all that terrible given the average corp tax is 10%. Bumping it up to 20% would give you a reason for leaving an NPC corp.
So why do the NPC corps have to take a nerf but wardeccers who go after the weakest possible targets so they have minimal risk don't? Why not make NPC corps less appealing, and at the same time look at making it more beneficial for a wardeccer to go after a challenging target and less beneficial to go after a weaker one?
Its not the wardeccers fault the corp they chose is a pushover, they can't know what any corp is like before a wardec.

I have had people wardec my solo corp a few times now to take on my tower thinking it was going to be easy only to find the production tower became a Dickstar and they died horribly.
Oh bull. Don't give me that, they know full well what the corp is going to be like, and when they do make a mistake and wardec someone that can beat them, they run away to protect their precious isk efficiency.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#550 - 2014-09-01 14:48:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
they run away to protect their precious isk efficiency.


Their targets have the same option so what's the issue? Big smile

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#551 - 2014-09-01 14:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Lucas Kell wrote:
Oh bull. Don't give me that, they know full well what the corp is going to be like, and when they do make a mistake and wardec someone that can beat them, they run away to protect their precious isk efficiency.


So, they didn't know full well what my corp was going to be like, did they? given that they died miserably on my tower of woe.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#552 - 2014-09-01 14:49:05 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Because this isn't how EVE Online works.
So EVE shouldn't give out a better reward for taking more risk? Thanks for explaining. Who are you again?
Now look who's misrepresenting other people's statements. :)
Not I. I suggested adding more reward for more risk and reducing reward for low risk and you told me EVE doesn't work that way.

Xuixien wrote:
And BTW I'm Xuixien, and I'm better than you in ever way. Lol
I believe you, honestly I do. I lay awake at night wishing I could be just like you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#553 - 2014-09-01 14:51:06 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Not I. I suggested adding more reward for more risk and reducing reward for low risk and you told me EVE doesn't work that way.


Except you're suggesting increasing risk for one group while decreasing risk (but not rewards) for another group based on some silly idea of "class" that doesn't actually exist in the game.

Again: EVE doesn't work that way.

Lucas Kell wrote:
I believe you, honestly I do. I lay awake at night wishing I could be just like you.


I know you do. But you will never be on my level until you accept EVE for what it is.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#554 - 2014-09-01 14:51:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Oh bull. Don't give me that, they know full well what the corp is going to be like, and when they do make a mistake and wardec someone that can beat them, they run away to protect their precious isk efficiency.
So, they didn't know full well what my corp was going to be like did they given that they died miserably on my tower of woe.
Most of the time they know, and like I say, the odd time they make an error in judgement, they can just run and hide.

Xuixien wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
they run away to protect their precious isk efficiency.
Their targets have the same option so what's the issue? Big smile
That running away is boring and I strongly believe EVE should try to bring people together to interact, and not make the most convenient option "run away and stay docked".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#555 - 2014-09-01 14:52:38 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
That running away is boring and I strongly believe EVE should try to bring people together to interact, and not make the most convenient option "run away and stay docked".


If it's boring then don't do it? You always have the option of coming together and fighting the WarDeccers.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#556 - 2014-09-01 14:54:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Oh bull. Don't give me that, they know full well what the corp is going to be like, and when they do make a mistake and wardec someone that can beat them, they run away to protect their precious isk efficiency.
So, they didn't know full well what my corp was going to be like did they given that they died miserably on my tower of woe.
Most of the time they know, and like I say, the odd time they make an error in judgement, they can just run and hide.


So they run and hide. Its their isk they just wasted.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#557 - 2014-09-01 14:56:36 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Except you're suggesting increasing risk for one group while decreasing risk (but not rewards) for another group based on some silly idea of "class" that doesn't actually exist in the game.
Am I? That's strange, because I distinctly remember suggesting that reward for NPC players be lowered (encouraging them to take more risk to keep their reward), encouraging wardeccers to choose (not be forced) to take more of a challenge for more reward, and discourage lower risk play with lessened reward.

Xuixien wrote:
I know you do. But you will never be on my level until you accept EVE for what it is.
A game for pansies who like to pretend that ganking noobs is hard, then go on at length about how dark and gritty it is?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#558 - 2014-09-01 14:59:59 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
If it's boring then don't do it? You always have the option of coming together and fighting the WarDeccers.
I don't get involved in wardeccers. My high sec guys operate from NPC corps and my mains operate from null. Much like many people operating from NPC corps, I don't consider it entertaining to lose an unarmed hauler to 20 12 year olds who then proceed to pat themselves on the back chanting "GF" in local. And therein lies the issue. You can't expect NPC players to choose to put themselves out for nothing.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#559 - 2014-09-01 15:01:28 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Am I? That's strange, because I distinctly remember suggesting that reward for NPC players be lowered (encouraging them to take more risk to keep their reward), encouraging wardeccers to choose (not be forced) to take more of a challenge for more reward, and discourage lower risk play with lessened reward.


Ah kid, you're suggesting that Industrial corps have their risks reduced via proxy of incentivizing PvP corps to go after each other instead of going after "soft targets" (despite the fact that said "soft targets" have a myriad of options at their disposal to both defend themselves and avoid getting killed, even leaving out NPC corps). So you're suggesting that NPCs corps be nerfed in order to encourage people into joining player corps, the risk of doing so you want to lower.

Your argument is just bad.

Lucas Kell wrote:
A game for pansies


Well, you are the one crying about PvPers shooting "non-combatants". Roll

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#560 - 2014-09-01 15:05:39 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
So you're suggesting that NPCs corps be nerfed in order to encourage people into joining player corps, the risk of doing so you want to lower.
Thus increasing their risk as they are now in players corps. And yes, reducing the player corp risk, but not mechanically, through giving the wardeccers a better choice of targets.

Or NPC corps stay the way they are, people continue to wardec soft targets and people continue to move into NPC corps to avoid them. The end result of that being exactly what we see now, which is that wardecs are a broken mechanic that can and will be avoided.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.