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Why must Gallente Armor tank?

Author
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-12-10 03:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
The lore, slot layout and bonuses of Amarr ships make it quite clear that Amarr ships should armor tank, and Caldari ships should shield tank... both have ships with 5% resists to their respective tank style.

Minmatar often have their choice in tank, or have some ships that tank Armor, and some that tank Shield (example, Hurricane can do both, Typhoon is good with armor tank....), some are sort of forced into a shield tank style by a shield boost bonus.

Then we have the Gallente... quite a few of their ships have slot layout such that they could be fitted for decent shield tanks (with 4 meds and 3 rig slots, a decent shield tank can be made - which sometimes results in even Amarr ships shield tanking, such as Apocs/navy Apocs in incursions):
Brutix, Myrmidion, Dominix, Hyperion

Yet all these ships except the Dominix have this damn active rep bonus...
The slot layout gives you versatility/choices, but then the active rep bonus means if you want chose a different shield type, you throw away a bonus.
So pretty much all armor tank Gallente ships, and consider a shield tanked Domi to be a abberation.

Of course many people feel that Active rep bonuses aren't that useful (especialyl for anything other than solo work), and are subpar compared to % resist bonuses that increase buffer and effective rep rate.
On top of this, they shoehorn the best candidates for Gallente shield tankers into the armor tank role - although when it comes to incursions, this goes out the window as local rep isnt used, and I often see shield tanked Hyperions and sometimes megas LFSF.
I also often hear of Shield Brutix fits for PvP.

My suggestion is to get rid of these armor rep bonuses (and the shield boost bonus on the Minmatar Cyclone, Claymore, and Mael), and replace it with another bonus, making the Gallente and Minmatar more variable when it comes to what they tank.
Perhaps give them a -5% cap recharge time bonus (and maybe a utlity high).
This higher cap regen aids them in active tank, or it can work to power a utility high, making the ship more versatilele (could power RRs, Cap drain, MWD, etc
Pulgy
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-12-10 03:36:51 UTC
This has been discussed to death.
CCPs response? "We'll looking into it".
No range? No problem!   Join the Church of the Holy Blasterâ„¢ . A Hybrid religion.
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-12-10 03:39:54 UTC
Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#4 - 2011-12-10 03:58:44 UTC
Doing this would really hurt people who solo/small gang. And believe it or not, there are lots of people that do.

Leave those bonuses alone, IMHO, or make them better, but dont remove them. Certainly, many Gallente ships need their slots and/or ship bonuses looked at, but removing this particular bonus all-together removes alot of the Gallente 'flavor' that has been around for a long time.

Honestly, I would prefer it if the Gal ships mentioned (and you should probably include the Thorax too, because it often shield fit) could excel WITHOUT having to fit shields. Give armor tankers a less effective, but still viable armor-tank "speed" option that is all but necessary on blaster boats. Current armor rigs completly destroy speed for the blaster race that needs it the most.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#5 - 2011-12-10 04:20:14 UTC
Train a Caldari blaster boat if you really wanna shield tank, its quite fun.

You might not want to train extra, but I can tell you this; Minmatar have it just as bad. You want a fully trained typhoon the train will take just as long as getting a Gallante pilot in a Rokh. Same with Cyclone/Ferox.

I understand what you mean about throwing away the bonus, its one of my pet peaves. But if you can get the desired effect then either do it or be all OCD and ****.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-12-10 05:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Because it dies with class.

Active tanking is just lols to death for other thing than pve, even then you have at least 3 T1 riggs and 4 cap recharge mods.

Because armor buffer is good in gallente hulls the moment you can afford slaves, otherwise it's crap to fit when you compare with amarr and they r +5% resist so you have less effective slots, then you have to fit some dps mods.

Good luck with all that with current game environment.

Whenever you pick some gallente stuff, forget the pirate versions, you can always find in Amarr or Minmatar something doing the same job with a lot more flexibility and dmg projection.

Why do you keep wasting your time trying masochist tools you obviously don't like?
Cross train amarr or minmatar, have fun for once.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-12-10 06:10:49 UTC
They dont, they hull tank.
Alara IonStorm
#8 - 2011-12-10 06:52:18 UTC
Change the speed penalty on Armor Rigs (Somethin the Devs are considering) and Gallente will become so much better.
Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#9 - 2011-12-10 07:02:55 UTC
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal.


A realistic attitude, I like that.
Noisrevbus
#10 - 2011-12-10 11:49:15 UTC
Vachir Khan wrote:
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal.


A realistic attitude, I like that.


We should also add that people in this game has a tendency to call anything unorthodox "an abberation", which is quite amusing looking at how a game like EVE with all it's design options premier thinking out of the box. Most good concepts have been considered bad ideas at one point or another - even if design changes may also inforce them as well.

As for tanks and slot layouts, it's something that stem back to the conception of the game, to differentiate the races: Amarr was made to be heavy armor, Gallente light armor, Minmatar light shield and Caldari heavy shield. Next you have to look at how that play out in relation to mods, bonuses and gameplay. Armor in itself is heavy while Shield in itself is light. This has lead to Gallente and Caldari always being a bit quirky (further troubled by many ships with very nisched bonuses).

Gallente always had the paradox of being agile with armor tanks that make you less mobile, while Caldari always had the problem of never really having a larger tank unless the ship itself is bonused for it (which in effect leave many Minmatar ships tanking better thanks to speed, sig, resist-profile, fitting and slot layout; and by extension, all races tanking more or less equally when refit to shield - such as is the case with mobile Sniping platforms like the new tier 3 BC (while many key mods only fit in lowslots, such as fitting mods).

These differences mean intergration issues which, if we should be a very blunt just to clearly point out the argument, has meant that Caldari often only play well with other Caldari ships and Gallente's tanky options mostly do well in solo-small settings with active tanks. That Minmatar and Gallente have better options to cross-tank on the other hand - that is only an advantage! It's quite useful on alot of ships where the frigs draw alot of benefit from being able to MSE buffer better than many other frigs and the cheaper tech I stuff (Thorax, Brutix etc.) can be gank-fit to utilize bonuses and weapon system at discretion.
Sadayiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-12-10 11:57:46 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Change the speed penalty on Armor Rigs (Somethin the Devs are considering) and Gallente will become so much better.


The trouble it's not of the ship design but of the game evolution.

In the past armor tanking was a good choice, almost considered the Best, the only reason this has changed so much it's due game mechanics and changes.

When CCP introduced the shield/armor compensation skills the forums cried of pain under the Complains (specially Amarr players) of how inba it was run 3x EANM II and 1x dmg control for armor tanking making lasers obsolete.

The later deployed changes like the nano age (and it's current version) the HP boost wich CCP made that almost all ships had double Hp than before whitout buffing the dmg and some others led to the current day buffer tanks.
and TBH the only reason armor tank it's crappy it's because for the Nano mentality where almost all ships are aimed to be fast and maneurable to kite and dictate it's preferred range.

Naso Gomez
#12 - 2011-12-10 13:02:40 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Cross train amarr or minmatar, have fun for once.


Exactly what I'm doing, Minmatar sounds nice.
Kesshisan
#13 - 2011-12-10 13:30:50 UTC
I put lasers on my Dominix. They are unbonused, but work just fine for my purpose.

Just because it's bonused, doesn't mean you have to use it. Just because you have it, doesn't mean it needs a bonus.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-12-10 13:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Drew Solaert
I've always been a huge fan of the active armour rep bonus on the Brutix, Myrm and Hyperion and it has made them my 3 most loved ships for small gang PvP and has made those ships some of the most fun to fly. (Dual Rep Brutix with a Rack of Ions is just <3)

Yes speed is an issue but I don't want to see "Generic buffer tank" as the only option for Gallente and Blasters. If you want a shield blaster boat you have tons of options - Ferox, Naga and Rokh even the Moa, yes the damage isn't as great the but the 40-50% to optimal range from the ship bonus sure as hell helps.

I lied :o

DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-12-10 14:22:51 UTC
Wylee Coyote wrote:
Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal.

And yet, other races get bonuses which are always useful. Two damage bonuses on the Cane, for instance.

I love my Myrm's flexibility and active-rep fits, but I'd also like to see flexibility without ditching a bonus. That's why I love the Domi so much Big smile
Songbird
#16 - 2011-12-10 14:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Songbird
so I'm browsing incursion channel and I read this : proteus LFSF - for the noobs that stands for "looking for shield fleet" - sure enough I checked it out - it's a shield fit gallente t3 - lots of dps and even semi reasonable range due to TE's.

In fact all the amarr ships, which are supposed to be the armor ships are more commonly seen as shield config - legion and guardian being the exceptions - not that legion doesn't rock as a shield boat - it's just the last armor port in the shield storm :).


what works in pve might not necessarily work in pvp especially if you would have to share tank prop and tackle in 4 mids slots but unless it's a ship with 1 mid shield tank is an option
Orlacc
#17 - 2011-12-10 15:49:07 UTC
Verity always seems to want what she/he can't have.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

OninoTimmo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-12-10 16:58:17 UTC
Agreed. I shield tank my Nyx.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#19 - 2011-12-10 20:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Verity Sovereign wrote:
My suggestion is to get rid of these armor rep bonuses (and the shield boost bonus on the Minmatar Cyclone, Claymore, and Mael), and replace it with another bonus, making the Gallente and Minmatar more variable when it comes to what they tank.
Perhaps give them a -5% cap recharge time bonus (and maybe a utlity high).
This higher cap regen aids them in active tank, or it can work to power a utility high, making the ship more versatilele (could power RRs, Cap drain, MWD, etc


This, of course, is a horrible idea. Active armor ships might be niche, but they are very good under the right circumstances. Active shield tanks -- god, don't change a thing about those.

The beauty of these ships is that they really do have options. The active shield ships can easily fit a buffer instead. The active armor ships can do that, armor buffer, or shield buffer. And yes, that's a good thing, especially when all of these options have at least some appeal within the metagame.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-12-10 23:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Why must Gallente armour tank?

Because CCP designed them for hull tanking (hence, highest stucture values and mentions of it in the older lore), but decided part way through that hull tanking wasn't something they wanted to even go near, so decided to switch to armour.

Personally, for added flavour, I'd like to see hull tanking actually get a serious look in by CCP. Adding another viable method of tanking could be rather interesting.
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