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War Decs as a griefing tool

First post
Author
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#481 - 2014-08-30 17:55:00 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
An example system for EVE (and literally off the top of my head so I don't want to hear anything about how good or terrible the idea is, this is just an example) could be an in-game wardec scoring system with softer targets and outnumbering battles rewarding considerably less than more even fights. The reason they go after killboards is to show off their epeens, so give them a way of measuring against each other in a way that rewards a challenge over a gank.
So now that we have one epeen measuring system which is apparently harming the game, the solution is to spend dev time developing a second such system in the hopes that it will encourage a small number of players who might be doing some harm to a largely theoretical potential audience to play a little differently?

And yes, I know it's just an example system, but the goal you are designing for is essentially self-contradictory, so you're going to have to do better than an example which attempts to solve a problem by adding a slightly different version of the cause of the problem.

And this is all under the assumption that the killboard stats are the end goal, and not just a nice side effect while derping around getting easy kills.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#482 - 2014-08-30 17:57:36 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
An example system for EVE (and literally off the top of my head so I don't want to hear anything about how good or terrible the idea is, this is just an example) could be an in-game wardec scoring system with softer targets and outnumbering battles rewarding considerably less than more even fights. The reason they go after killboards is to show off their epeens, so give them a way of measuring against each other in a way that rewards a challenge over a gank.
So now that we have one epeen measuring system which is apparently harming the game, the solution is to spend dev time developing a second such system in the hopes that it will encourage a small number of players who might be doing some harm to a largely theoretical potential audience to play a little differently?

And yes, I know it's just an example system, but the goal you are designing for is essentially self-contradictory, so you're going to have to do better than an example which attempts to solve a problem by adding a slightly different version of the cause of the problem.

And this is all under the assumption that the killboard stats are the end goal, and not just a nice side effect while derping around getting easy kills.
Again, it was just an example. The idea would be to give wardeccers more of something they want for taking a challenge, and less of what they want ad more cost for aiming for less of a challenge. PvE should be done in the same way to be honest. I can't really explain it more clearly than that.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#483 - 2014-08-30 17:57:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'd love to see them gone, which I've stated before in this thread, but they are needed to make certain playstyles possible, and I don't believe in nuking established playstyles out of the game.


Dropping corp to avoid war is now an estamblished playstyle?

If we agree on the fact that NPC corps should be gone, why do you argue so much to support them?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#484 - 2014-08-30 18:08:09 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Dropping corp to avoid war is now an estamblished playstyle?
No, It's a mechanic. There are many playstyles, for example, red-frog are contract haulers. Without NPC corps, they couldn't handle anywhere close to the load they currently do and would have to charge considerably more. Most industry would be considerably more difficult if we had to run full guard hauls like we used to do in nullsec.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
If we agree on the fact that NPC corps should be gone, why do you argue so much to support them?
Because I think other mechanics need to change first to make it possible to remove them without a monument shooting protest and mass quitting. Reliance on NPC corps needs to be lowered before they can be removed, which isn't going to happen just by preaching at the playerbase about how they shouldn't be using them.

Since people go full ****** whenever you suggest a change to mechanic that even remotely lowers risk, I also choose to encourage as many people to join NPC corps instead, with the intent that in the end people will be so annoyed with NPC corps existing they will accept concessions to have them removed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#485 - 2014-08-30 18:12:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No, It's a mechanic. There are many playstyles, for example, red-frog are contract haulers. Without NPC corps, they couldn't handle anywhere close to the load they currently do and would have to charge considerably more. Most industry would be considerably more difficult if we had to run full guard hauls like we used to do in nullsec.


Ah so when its someone attacking your stuff, they need to be made to play "sensibly" from your point of view, but the idea of guarding your transports is wacky, alien and silly for you. Got it.

Also, Corp Management 1 is not hard to train. NPC corps are for the lazy.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Since people go full ****** whenever you suggest a change to mechanic that even remotely lowers risk, I also choose to encourage as many people to join NPC corps instead, with the intent that in the end people will be so annoyed with NPC corps existing they will accept concessions to have them removed.


Oh trololol. You seek to have NPC corps removed by ecouraging people to use them? Dont talk rubbish.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#486 - 2014-08-30 18:17:22 UTC
I'm gonna go full Hodor here. Apologies for those whom it may offend. NPC corps... they don't need to go away. They provide a loving safe haven for our budding newbros who may someday become swarthy eyepatch wearing brigands of the big black, or cigar smoking industrialist pigs who've fought tooth and nail to get to where they are now.

HOWEVER, once a player reaches a certain point in their life, whether it be determined via age or total skillpoints, they need to be cast from the nest, or at the very least make the expense of living within the nest so prohibitive that anything else is a better alternative. IE, thou art an adult now, go forth and get yourself a big boy job, with all the big boy job benefits and dangers.... or we're going to tax the everloving **** out of you until you man up and join the rest of the world.

The NPC corps serve their purpose, but they're overdoing it by providing shelter to those for whom the shelter wasn't really meant for. I want newbies to have a chance to learn the game, to have a safe place to live until they're ready to make educated decisions regarding how to proceed with life. But I also don't want those whom we would deem to be fully functional adults to be able to hide behind momma's skirts because New Eden is scary... of course it's bloody scary. But it's also full of opportunities, and to fear crossing the threshold into the unknown robs you of those very opportunities.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#487 - 2014-08-30 18:19:05 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I'm gonna go full Hodor here. Apologies for those whom it may offend. NPC corps... they don't need to go away. They provide a loving safe haven for our budding newbros who may someday become swarthy eyepatch wearing brigands of the big black, or cigar smoking industrialist pigs who've fought tooth and nail to get to where they are now.

HOWEVER, once a player reaches a certain point in their life, whether it be determined via age or total skillpoints, they need to be cast from the nest, or at the very least make the expense of living within the nest so prohibitive that anything else is a better alternative. IE, thou art an adult now, go forth and get yourself a big boy job, with all the big boy job benefits and dangers.... or we're going to tax the everloving **** out of you until you man up and join the rest of the world.

The NPC corps serve their purpose, but they're overdoing it by providing shelter to those for whom the shelter wasn't really meant for. I want newbies to have a chance to learn the game, to have a safe place to live until they're ready to make educated decisions regarding how to proceed with life. But I also don't want those whom we would deem to be fully functional adults to be able to hide behind momma's skirts because New Eden is scary... of course it's bloody scary. But it's also full of opportunities, and to fear crossing the threshold into the unknown robs you of those very opportunities.


Ill buy that for a dollar. +1

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#488 - 2014-08-30 18:19:53 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Ah so when its someone attacking your stuff, they need to be made to play "sensibly" from your point of view, but the idea of guarding your transports is wacky, alien and silly for you. Got it.

Also, Corp Management 1 is not hard to train. NPC corps are for the lazy.
Another staw man! Are you goign for a record? Try arguing the point's I'm actually making rather than your misrepresentations.

And no, it's not alien and silly, it's just unrealistic to expect industry to run as smoothly as it does if everyone can just be attacked by the mass wardeccers.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Oh trololol. You seek to have NPC corps removed by ecouraging people to use them? Dont talk rubbish.
It's better than the rubbish you are spouting. You want nothing else to change and just expect NPC corps to be removed. Never gonna happen buddy. If nothing else changes, NPC corps will be here to stay and people will continue to use them, and I will continue to tell people to use them. There's absolutely nothing you can do about that.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#489 - 2014-08-30 18:22:31 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I'm gonna go full Hodor here. Apologies for those whom it may offend. NPC corps... they don't need to go away. They provide a loving safe haven for our budding newbros who may someday become swarthy eyepatch wearing brigands of the big black, or cigar smoking industrialist pigs who've fought tooth and nail to get to where they are now.

HOWEVER, once a player reaches a certain point in their life, whether it be determined via age or total skillpoints, they need to be cast from the nest, or at the very least make the expense of living within the nest so prohibitive that anything else is a better alternative. IE, thou art an adult now, go forth and get yourself a big boy job, with all the big boy job benefits and dangers.... or we're going to tax the everloving **** out of you until you man up and join the rest of the world.

The NPC corps serve their purpose, but they're overdoing it by providing shelter to those for whom the shelter wasn't really meant for. I want newbies to have a chance to learn the game, to have a safe place to live until they're ready to make educated decisions regarding how to proceed with life. But I also don't want those whom we would deem to be fully functional adults to be able to hide behind momma's skirts because New Eden is scary... of course it's bloody scary. But it's also full of opportunities, and to fear crossing the threshold into the unknown robs you of those very opportunities.
I don;t disagree, but then, again, that's never going to happen without other changes occurring at the same time to balance out combat in highsec.

Let me ask you this. If CCP said they were going to make that change but only if they a the same time made it easier to stay safer in player corps, would you accept that? Or must you have your cake and eat it too?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#490 - 2014-08-30 18:28:31 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Another staw man! Are you goign for a record? Try arguing the point's I'm actually making rather than your misrepresentations.

In what way? You want wardeccers to stop attacking corps who wont defend themselves, and you dont want to have to defend yourself.

How is that in any way a misrepresentation of what your point of view is?

Lucas Kell wrote:
And no, it's not alien and silly, it's just unrealistic to expect industry to run as smoothly as it does if everyone can just be attacked by the mass wardeccers.

Who said it would? Dont be such a hyocrit and call my point fallacious and then do exactly the same.

Lucas Kell wrote:
You want nothing else to change and just expect NPC corps to be removed..

Oh learn to read. Would you like me to go and quote each time Ive said thatNPC corps should go at the same time that wardeccing is changed so its not just dodging CONCORD?

BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY POINT IVE MADE IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#491 - 2014-08-30 18:40:28 UTC
I'm not sure I'd be okay with being safer in player corps to be honest. I ran my own one man player corp for years because I truly felt that I should be held accountable for the consequences of my own actions and words, be it on the forums or in game. Granted for the most of that time I was a peaceful, asteroid munching, red cross shooting awarebear, so I really didn't **** very many folks off.

Most of my opinions when it comes to safety in high sec are actually based off of the eight years plus I spent as a carebear doing carebear things. Only in the last couple of months have I discovered how much fun it can be to interact with others on a pvp level in this game. I used to despise pirates and pvp'ers way back in the days before I came to grips with the nature of EVE. Then I actually started to read the forums, pay attention to who was who, and what they actually had to say. My hatred dissipated as I started to comprehend that I had misunderstood the nature of the game from the start.

I now instead of seeing basement dwelling sociopaths everywhere saw that it was a myriad of people from all over the world playing a pvp game and simply enjoying all of what it had to offer. I had chosen to be a victim with the mentality with which I approached the game. I'd been infected by Everquest, Earth and Beyond, and the Gygaxian paradigm. In short, I had been trying to approach EVE as a themepark rather than a sandbox.

I'm better now. Hell, most of the time I don't even let you troll me too much, but I have my moments of weakness. You know I favor the dark and gritty side of EVE, hell you've made me go all honeybadger over it in the past. I just want our newbies to have a realistic understanding of what it's all about out there, and our vets to have the spine to stand up for what they represent. No hiding in the shadows for the established, face the consequences of your actions, or um, you know... STFU if you're not willing to back what you say with blasters, missiles or autocannons n laz0rz.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#492 - 2014-08-30 18:40:47 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
In what way? You want wardeccers to stop attacking corps who wont defend themselves, and you dont want to have to defend yourself.

How is that in any way a misrepresentation of what your point of view is?
You mean beside being completely wrong?
At no point have I said that people should not have to defend themselves at all, but you can't expect every corp in the game to be able to do anything besides dock up and not play against some of the biggest wardeccers in this game. You expect everyone to play exactly like you and to enjoy the things you enjoy. Some people don't like playing that way, and have never been forced to. You want to force them and give them absolutely nothing in return. Basically you want to eliminate playstyles that don't fit yours.

I want wardeccers to be discouraged from attacking some corps, sure, but in no way do I believe they should be stopped from doing so.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
Oh learn to read. Would you like me to go and quote each time Ive said thatNPC corps should go at the same time that wardeccing is changed so its not just dodging CONCORD?

BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY POINT IVE MADE IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD
Honestly, I've not seen you make a point yet. All I've seen is you go along and argue with everything, and when you find a position you can't argue you've just made something up and argued against that instead. You even ragequit the thread and failed to do the quitting part. The closest I've seen to a point you've made seems to be that anyone that joins an NPC corp is inferior and that NPC corps shouldn't exist so there's plenty more fodder for wardeccers.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#493 - 2014-08-30 18:43:56 UTC
Whatever you say Kell, either you cant read or your just a half decent troll.

So Ill lodge the ole troll report and leave it at that.

Have fun ripping your new players off and watchign them get killed thanks to your terrible advice and even worse attitude.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Sol epoch
HELVEGEN
#494 - 2014-08-30 18:45:26 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Reading through the last posts there is so much evidence that
too many people do not understand what "PvP" means/stands for.

Lots of pointless, completely avoidable discussions and arguments are born from this.


Why are you commenting on an aspect of the game you clearly have no idea about?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#495 - 2014-08-30 18:52:23 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Have fun ripping your new players off and watchign them get killed thanks to your terrible advice and even worse attitude.
Yes, because telling them the most effective way to avoid all wardecs permanently is terrible advice! From an NPC corp the only thing you need to worry about is ganekrs and rats, both of which can be tanked.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#496 - 2014-08-30 19:09:38 UTC
Ultimately I feel that staying safe in player corps is dependent upon maintaining responsibility for the actions of yourself and your corp. However, once a corp reaches a certain size it becomes impossible for it to operate at it's fullest capacity without stepping on the toes of SOMEONE out there. This can be mitigated to some degree by actually engaging in diplomacy with other nearby corps that engage in similar activities to your own. If no efforts in this manner are made then conflict will inevitably result after this point. People who like statistics and math would be better suited than I for determining the precise point where this happens.

By engaging other player corps in discourse and diplomacy one can also move towards a cooperative effort to achieve even greater goals, thus alliances can be born and made to work. Unfortunately this involves interacting with other players, which for some seems to be the ultimate taboo. That bit there, that's what is saddening. The NPC corps give those with that particular mentality a place of shelter in which to flourish and propagate their own toxic view of New Eden to others.

TL;DR... I want our newbies safe, but I don't want them being mentored by agoraphobic shut ins who try to teach them that going outside is bad.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Kurosaki Rukia
Energy
#497 - 2014-08-30 19:32:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Have fun ripping your new players off and watchign them get killed thanks to your terrible advice and even worse attitude.
Yes, because telling them the most effective way to avoid all wardecs permanently is terrible advice! From an NPC corp the only thing you need to worry about is ganekrs and rats, both of which can be tanked.


If someone really really wants to gank you, there is no tanking it. They just need to scan you and bring enough to do the job.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#498 - 2014-08-30 19:37:17 UTC
A trolling post was removed.

Forum rule 5. Trolling is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#499 - 2014-08-30 19:53:54 UTC
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Have fun ripping your new players off and watchign them get killed thanks to your terrible advice and even worse attitude.
Yes, because telling them the most effective way to avoid all wardecs permanently is terrible advice! From an NPC corp the only thing you need to worry about is ganekrs and rats, both of which can be tanked.


If someone really really wants to gank you, there is no tanking it. They just need to scan you and bring enough to do the job.

No tanking. You are quite correct. Avoidance due to situational awareness is still possible, however.
This still requires the intended victim to be at keys, and actively engaged in the activity of trying to remain alive. This is to many an arduous task that is simply far more difficult than bitching about dying on the forums.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#500 - 2014-08-30 23:00:09 UTC
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Have fun ripping your new players off and watchign them get killed thanks to your terrible advice and even worse attitude.
Yes, because telling them the most effective way to avoid all wardecs permanently is terrible advice! From an NPC corp the only thing you need to worry about is ganekrs and rats, both of which can be tanked.


If someone really really wants to gank you, there is no tanking it. They just need to scan you and bring enough to do the job.


That's true of everything, however. Someone who dedicates themselves to killing specifically you and puts enough resources, effort and people to do it, will probably succeed.

Not only is that not a problem, since against a larger number of players who do catch you unawares, it would exhibit a huge game imbalance if you did in fact survive, but you should also ask yourself precisely why such a large number of people are targeting specifically you.

Avoidance and preventative measures are the key to not being randomly ganked, or ganked for profit however.

These include tank, scouting, webs, and not carrying too much in your cargo hold.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.