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Add Rookie Ship BP's to the game! Possibly as BPC's from Pend Ins.
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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#21 - 2014-08-29 19:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.

Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.
Jack Reafman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-08-30 10:09:08 UTC
You know, I was sitting here thinking, "Adding BPOs for ships that you get every time you drive a capsule into a station is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard" I wasn't gonna say that though, because everyone else was making that point for me.

X Gallentius wrote:
Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.

Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.


Then that guy said that, and suddenly rookie ship BPOs make total sense.

Now I support this idea.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#23 - 2014-08-30 10:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
The difference being that all the time and effort involved to produce a ship is still and always will longer then hit undock, eject into an Orca etc.., dock. Shocked

Still not supported.
No matter how nice you dress it up, how short of a production time you inject, how little the resource costs are or the hauling to location ... it's still stupid.
Jack Reafman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-08-30 10:26:27 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
The difference being that all the time and effort involved to produce a ship is still and always will longer then hit undock, eject into an Orca etc.., dock. Shocked



I can set sometihng up in industry to run a bunch of times faster than I can travel from station X to station Z, and unless you have an orca I can borrow I can't park one outside the station I'm in to run off my 100 copies of the rookie ship.

Not only that, but while you're docking and undocking to get your 100 rookie ships, I'll be off doing something else while the industry facilities do the work for me. Time saved, mind blown.

Maybe instead of reacting with an air of superiority and arrogance you should stop and think, I mean actually think instead of just looking for reasons to slap it down.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2014-08-30 11:16:36 UTC
The question why someone would buy something that is given out for free still has not been answered. Also, the only reason to build these ships is to scam and grief new players in beginner systems. And what EVE needs is just another item in the market that can be exploited for quick profits and bad intentions.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#26 - 2014-08-30 11:46:23 UTC
Jack Reafman wrote:

I can set sometihng up in industry to run a bunch of times faster than I can travel from station X to station Z, and unless you have an orca I can borrow I can't park one outside the station I'm in to run off my 100 copies of the rookie ship....

Not correct, first, you don't have to travel form station x to z, you can do it at the same station and with a mate or an alt.

And you wasting industry slots for this, instead of producing something more profitable also defeats that argument, since it has not even been considered:

What else could you built instead of the limitless and free item ?! And from that profit you could actually just buy those items from people who in your opinion are silly enough to use said limitless and free feature to get them for you °°

The joke is still on you - and the OP.
Jack Reafman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-08-30 13:15:49 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
The question why someone would buy something that is given out for free still has not been answered. Also, the only reason to build these ships is to scam and grief new players in beginner systems. And what EVE needs is just another item in the market that can be exploited for quick profits and bad intentions.


Sure it was, by this guy.

X Gallentius wrote:
Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.

Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.


Now to this...

Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Jack Reafman wrote:

I can set sometihng up in industry to run a bunch of times faster than I can travel from station X to station Z, and unless you have an orca I can borrow I can't park one outside the station I'm in to run off my 100 copies of the rookie ship....

Not correct, first, you don't have to travel form station x to z, you can do it at the same station and with a mate or an alt.

And you wasting industry slots for this, instead of producing something more profitable also defeats that argument, since it has not even been considered:

What else could you built instead of the limitless and free item ?! And from that profit you could actually just buy those items from people who in your opinion are silly enough to use said limitless and free feature to get them for you °°

The joke is still on you - and the OP.


And you're failing to consider something really kind of important.... New Players. If BPOs were put in for the rookie ships it's likely they'd be pretty low in material costs, and the BPOs themselves wouldn't be very high priced. New players, lacking the funds to purchase the really nice really profitable BPOs might still be able to afford BPOs for something like the rookie ships, and since the material costs would be low, they could make money off something they could afford to build. Using that as a stepping stone to bigger better things.

Do I see people who have been playing for 6 months still using their rookie ship bpos? No, by then they've acquired other more profitable bpos, or left the manufacturing business altogether in avor of something else. Do I see it as something that a newbie would find useful? Absolutely.

As for your doing it in the same station with a mate or alt, not every new player has met people right away, certainly not people they'd trust, and not all of them have alts yet.

Here's the big question though.... Would it take anything away from other players? No?
Would it bring something to some players? Judging by the way people have responded to this thread, at least some of them think so.
Would it unbalance and break the game? No.
Would anyone be hurt by this? No.

Good, then there are no reasons to object to it, other than being brutishly pigheaded.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2014-08-30 13:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Jack Reafman wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
The question why someone would buy something that is given out for free still has not been answered. Also, the only reason to build these ships is to scam and grief new players in beginner systems. And what EVE needs is just another item in the market that can be exploited for quick profits and bad intentions.


Sure it was, by this guy.

X Gallentius wrote:
Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.

Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.


That would be a very bad trade. Every use of rookie ships involves situations where you get one handed for free and instantly. Having to produce these before you could use them, would involve the transport of minerals to the Low sec or 00 sec stations and the wait time for production. If you get shot and dock in a station, you have a rookie ship there for you. If your cyno gets killed, you dock and have a rookie ship there for you. Henceforth, the question is certainly not answered why this would be good, improve on something, not to mention why I would wait for or buy this ship. The rookie ship is an insurance token, not something I should be required to build myself. What's the point of the insurance then? Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#29 - 2014-08-30 14:26:50 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:

That would be a very bad trade. Every use of rookie ships involves situations where you get one handed for free and instantly. Having to produce these before you could use them, would involve the transport of minerals to the Low sec or 00 sec stations and the wait time for production. If you get shot and dock in a station, you have a rookie ship there for you. If your cyno gets killed, you dock and have a rookie ship there for you. Henceforth, the question is certainly not answered why this would be good, improve on something, not to mention why I would wait for or buy this ship. The rookie ship is an insurance token, not something I should be required to build myself. What's the point of the insurance then? Roll

For the majority of people, there would indeed be no point in producing Rookie Ships. But for some people, being able to produce them would be faster and easier than having to buy them or dock / redock repeatedly.

Rookie Ship roams are a thing, and can be quite fun (seriously... getting a shiny kill with a bunch of Rookie Ships is not only pure greenery for your killboard, it's one of the most embarrassing losses on theirs).

As well, Rookie Ships and Shuttles are both used in nulsec as a means of transportation between stations when you don't want to move your normal ship (moving ships to a new station, for example) and don't want to fly back in your pod. I'm not exaggerating when stating, again, that Rookie Ships and Shuttles both regularly sell for 100k ISK or more in some nulsec areas where your next neighboring station may be several jumps out.

Rookie Ship BPO's or BPC's wouldn't be useful for everyone, and nobody is stating that they would or should be, nor is anyone stating that they should have to be built in lieu of being provide by insurance: they absolutely should and need to remain available through insurance, as the Rookie Ship you get is the way of getting back on your feet should the absolute worst possible disaster occur and you lose literally everything you have. Maybe not the best way, but it's a way.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#30 - 2014-08-30 18:14:32 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That would be a very bad trade.
The two cases where it would be valuable are:
1. Players want to do lol-fleets with tens or hundreds of rookie ships, or
2. Players want to prefit a bunch of disposable cyno ships up in station for their corporation.

There may be other cases. Emergent play and all that.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#31 - 2014-08-30 18:29:15 UTC
Jack Reafman wrote:
And you're failing to consider something really kind of important.... New Players. If BPOs were put in for the rookie ships it's likely they'd be pretty low in material costs, and the BPOs themselves wouldn't be very high priced. New players, lacking the funds to purchase the really nice reall

Hawhawhawhaw... Malcanis' Law, Hawhawhaw Shocked

And yes, there is really nothing between making rookie frigs and building T3s and surely no max skilled Industrial can price compete with those new players Shocked

Stop creating silly comparisons, it does not work.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#32 - 2014-08-30 18:38:08 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Everything in this game can be replicated infinitely (except for a few unique items). The cost with replicating rookie ships is TIME. TIME replicating these ships can be saved with BPO's. Hence, there will be a market for these ships since the users will pay isk to save them time to acquire them.

Just like any other item in this game. We pay isk for items so that can save TIME by not having to jump through several hoops to aquire items on our own.



Actually being able to manufacture Rookie Ships might take some burden off of the server.

Think about it how many Rookie Ships are spawned at any given moment in the environment because a Capsuleer enters a station in a Pod?

Taking away the spawn rate of Rookie Ships inside of stations might help reduce lag.

Being able to mass produce Rookie Ships should be limited to 500 per Capsuleer per month thought to keep the market from being flooded.

If you enter into a station you can opt to purchase a Rookie Ship for 1000 ISK or not by simply going to the Market and purchasing one.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#33 - 2014-08-30 18:47:26 UTC
Hy Dryson
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-08-30 18:51:27 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
That would be a very bad trade.
The two cases where it would be valuable are:
1. Players want to do lol-fleets with tens or hundreds of rookie ships, or
2. Players want to prefit a bunch of disposable cyno ships up in station for their corporation.

There may be other cases. Emergent play and all that.


#1: You come in your pod to the meet-up point and get your Rookie ship for free. For such a fleet you also need lots of different Rookie ships and every pilot fits their Rookie ships after their own liking. Which turns out into that some people have to get their own Rookie ship after all by station hopping or arriving in a pod when your supplies run out. You also need to reship pretty regularly if you do these fleets in lots of different locations, where you get free Rookie ships because you land in a pod. And please don't give me "Prefit Rookie ships for lol fleets" -- that would go against the very principle of a lol fleet.
#2: You use normal frigates, which don't require cargo expanders and if you use production for the rookie ships, require the same amount of effort. And you already have the proper frigate BPO researched and ready.

Both points disproved. Next?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#35 - 2014-08-30 19:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Summer Isle
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Both points disproved. Next?

Rookie Ships are the only player-controllable ships in the game without either a BPO or BPC available (excluding "special" ships like the Ishukone Watch Scorpion and similar, of course). Adding a BP for Rookie Ships would simply be bringing them in line with every other player ship in the game.

And yes, I'm including the Pirate-faction Rookie Ships in that statement. Making the BPC's for those available in the pirate LP stores would be preferable, as well, but I'm on a campaign for the standard four Rookie Ships, first.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#36 - 2014-08-30 20:04:10 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Both points disproved. Next?

My response was directly pointed at your comment about "Bad Trade". It is not a bad trade to use a cheaper ship (the rookie ship) for a cyno rather than a T1 frigate which costs 200k/ship.

There is also a market for batch processing of rookie ships for lol-fleets. Purchase 120 of them in Jita (+mods) and ship them to wherever you want to run lol fleet. You would purchase and ship the mods the same way, so why not add the rookie ships as well?

Done. No fuss, no buss. Fleet ready to go. If I were to get a lol-fleet ready for my guys, that's how I'd do it because it would be the fastest way to get it going.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#37 - 2014-08-30 22:11:15 UTC
Rookie ships should be removed from insurance and just available from aura tutorial ... Simple fix

Is that my two cents or yours?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#38 - 2014-08-30 23:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
You know what? I am absolutely on board with this whole "Rookie Ship BPO" thing. Especially if it means the possibility of T2 rookie ships. No, I'm not worried about what function they serve. I just want a T2 rookie ship even if it costs nearly what an AF costs.

Empire Faction rookie ship BPOs are a thing that need to happen. As it is, players are already pod-docking to get them in large quantities. Something like this would remove the need for pod-docking - thus decreasing the server load from the repeated docking/undocking and freeing up pilot time for something less god-awful tedious.

It's worth mentioning that I routinely use rookie ships as high-capacity shuttles. If I need to take something somewhere and a regular shuttle just won't do, I buy a rookie ship off the market and sell it at my destination.

I'm a little bit ... you know ... against the Pirate Rookie Ship BPC thing because those were special-edition Fanfest ships, but that's for another thread.

As a side note, if the ISDs will grant some leeway:

Fer'isam, if you're not going to actually contribute to this thread in an intelligent, mature, constructive manner then get out. All you're doing is posting forum memes you clearly don't understand (Malcanis' Law for one) and trying to poke "logical fallacy, so no" into places where there isn't even a logical fallacy. OP has presented a decent idea, made logically-sound arguments and you're busy flailing your arms and basically making yourself look ... well ... touched.

Oh, and stop misusing Hume's Guillotine.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#39 - 2014-08-31 01:05:22 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I'm a little bit ... you know ... against the Pirate Rookie Ship BPC thing because those were special-edition Fanfest ships, but that's for another thread.

I've been under the impression they were also given out in the occasional "new account signup bonus" deals, akin to the special exploration frigs. If they were only given out during Fanfest, though, then I think they would fall into the same category of "special" as the other non-BP gift ships. I retract my statement, then, regarding them being available as BPC's.

I'm still going to be pushing for the four standard Rookie Ships to be available as BP's, though!

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Asheava
Darwinbots
#40 - 2014-08-31 02:33:50 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Fer'isam, if you're not going to actually contribute to this thread in an intelligent, mature, constructive manner then get out.


He's done this sort of thing on every single thread he's commented on. I don't think he's ever said something positive. Best I can find is slightly neutral. I think everyone would be well advised to just ignore the trolls and move on with their lives.

Oh, and yes, I support this idea :D
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