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War Decs as a griefing tool

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Prince Kobol
#321 - 2014-08-29 19:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
There's a huge difference between risk averse and risk mitigation.
LOL, yes, one you say about other people, and one you say about yourself. The fundamentals of them though are both the same.

The fundamentals may be similar but the practices are not.

A risk averse person dislikes risk and avoids what they perceive to be high risk ventures/activities, risk mitigation means that people will often be involved in what they know to be high risk ventures/activities, but actively take steps to lower their exposure to the risks.

There is a difference.

No, there really isn't. in both cases if the final amount of risk is beyond minimal then the activity doesn't happen.

It is possible for people to mitigate risk and still take on moderately risky odds, by most highsec wardeccers don't. Their killboard isk efficiencies are just way too precious to do anything that has even a slightest chance of damaging it.



That is how you hurt them. nothing more embarrassing then losing a shiny T3 to a bunch of noobs in frigs and ventures but then according to there is no point in trying and you might as well just give up and hide in a NPC corp.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#322 - 2014-08-29 19:44:16 UTC
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
That's not true.

Someone who is risk averse doesn't like to take risks and will therefore look to avoid taking them at all. In avoiding risk, they remain ignorant of key game mechanics. When their ignorance bites them, they often blame others instead of themselves, and or the system for there being any risks at all. They fight against the risk-reward structure of the game, and become increasingly unhappy that it's not the way they want it.

Conversely. Someone who practices risk mitigation will take risks, and having taken risks gain knowledge that helps them in future. With practice comes the ability to manage risks and keep them wthin a threshold they are happy with. They do not want others to keep them safe, but instead take their own safety into their own hands. They do not shrink from danger, but instead embrace it. They take advantage of the risk-reward structure of the game to seek increased rewards, and constantly improve when faced with new challenges and emergent gameplay. In short, they have run with risks instead of shrinking from them.
Lol whatever you say, however you want to define it, I'm not goign to sit about arguing semantice. Long and short: most wardeccers are no less risk averse than the risk averse bears. They do not engage unless they are near certain of success. You can say they mitigate the risk by hiding in stations until the enemy force is small enough to pose no threat, but it's no different.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kurosaki Rukia
The House of Flying Stabbers
#323 - 2014-08-29 20:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kurosaki Rukia
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
That's not true.

Someone who is risk averse doesn't like to take risks and will therefore look to avoid taking them at all. In avoiding risk, they remain ignorant of key game mechanics. When their ignorance bites them, they often blame others instead of themselves, and or the system for there being any risks at all. They fight against the risk-reward structure of the game, and become increasingly unhappy that it's not the way they want it.

Conversely. Someone who practices risk mitigation will take risks, and having taken risks gain knowledge that helps them in future. With practice comes the ability to manage risks and keep them wthin a threshold they are happy with. They do not want others to keep them safe, but instead take their own safety into their own hands. They do not shrink from danger, but instead embrace it. They take advantage of the risk-reward structure of the game to seek increased rewards, and constantly improve when faced with new challenges and emergent gameplay. In short, they have run with risks instead of shrinking from them.
Lol whatever you say, however you want to define it, I'm not goign to sit about arguing semantice. Long and short: most wardeccers are no less risk averse than the risk averse bears. They do not engage unless they are near certain of success. You can say they mitigate the risk by hiding in stations until the enemy force is small enough to pose no threat, but it's no different.


If you want to believe that using past experience (gained from risk-taking), to pick favorable engagements is equivalent to hiding and learning nothing at all, then all power to you.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2014-08-29 20:58:36 UTC
npc corps need to be wardecable

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Valkin Mordirc
#325 - 2014-08-29 21:07:05 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol whatever you say, however you want to define it, I'm not goign to sit about arguing semantice. Long and short: most wardeccers are no less risk averse than the risk averse bears. They do not engage unless they are near certain of success. You can say they mitigate the risk by hiding in stations until the enemy force is small enough to pose no threat, but it's no different.



Why, and please answer this, would I happily throw my Tengu at 10 battleships? You say that I won't fight someone unless I know I will win, you are damn right I will do just that. I will do my damndest to make sure I will win that fight. And if that fight is impossible to win, I will not fight needlessly waste a ship.


You seem to think that as a Wardeccer, all I want to is kill highsec 'carebears' and laugh at them, I do not, I want fights. Everytime I get a small gang fight, everytime I someone want's to solo me. I enjoy that more than anything else in the game, and yes before you even say it I do enjoy it more than shooting some poor idiot who wants to run a lvl 4 mission with his faction fitted shield tanked apoc.

Do you honestly think that a 500+ fleet will run into a fight they are not sure they will win? Or will they reship into something that would counter the enemy? It's the same for everything else, a person will go out of his way to make sure he/she will come out on top, High/low/null and IRL. It's never changed, and it never will.


You have created a this little idea inside your head, that all wardecers want is a easy kill. I'm sorry but you must have never actually joined a Merc corp. So before you understand that small subgroup in this entity of EVE, you really have no right to say, what I want. You are constantly coming up with these little 'facts' inside your head, without providing your burden of truth. And when confronted about it, you either sidestep the question, ignore it entirely, or twist it with more of your 'facts' while never actually delivering your burden of truth.


I'm sure you've heard this before, but judging by how you complain so much about the game, why don't you just quit right now? You are what most Merc corps find hilarious, or annoying to the point of loathing. You do not, or can not, listen to what is plainly laid out before you. 
#DeleteTheWeak
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#326 - 2014-08-29 21:51:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's more like: teach a man to fish, but give him enough to survive until he catch his first one. Fishing isn't just casting a line in the water and success! It takes time to learn, as does EVE.
Since in our example the fishing, like EVE, is a leisure activity, the number of required fish donations to ensure survival is zero.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#327 - 2014-08-29 22:43:19 UTC
Ah, I see he's switched to the "Good risk management = risk aversion" fallacy again.

No, Lucas, smart gameplay does not equal cowardice. Nor is there any moral equivalency between the two.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#328 - 2014-08-29 23:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ah, I see he's switched to the "Good risk management = risk aversion" fallacy again.

No, Lucas, smart gameplay does not equal cowardice. Nor is there any moral equivalency between the two.
He can't see the difference, he's blinded by the need to always be right regardless of the facts.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Paranoid Loyd
#329 - 2014-08-29 23:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ah, I see he's switched to the "Good risk management = risk aversion" fallacy again.

No, Lucas, smart gameplay does not equal cowardice. Nor is there any moral equivalency between the two.
He can't see the difference, he's blinded by the need to always be right regardless of the facts.




Nah, he just likes to argue to pass the time.Blink

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#330 - 2014-08-29 23:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
^^ heh I edited the last bit out, I don't really want to jump on the personality disorder diagnosis bandwagon that appears to be doing the rounds at the moment.

It's unseemly.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#331 - 2014-08-29 23:51:29 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
^^ heh I edited the last bit out, I don't really want to jump on the personality disorder diagnosis bandwagon that appears to be doing the rounds at the moment.

It's unseemly.


While it is unseemly, I personally take great delight in dispensing justice via jaundiced juxtapositioning.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#332 - 2014-08-30 00:00:52 UTC
Kurosaki Rukia wrote:
Quote:
“Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.”

― Terry Pratchett, Jingo
+1 for the Terry Pratchett quote. Got all of the Discworld novels and my copy of The Long Mars arrived yesterday morning.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#333 - 2014-08-30 00:02:53 UTC
Gods, is this still going on?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#334 - 2014-08-30 00:30:37 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, stop saying it's the fault of the target.


In EVE Online it is.

  1. You are responsible for your own education. If you are ignorant, it is your fault.
  2. You are responsible for your own safety. If you explode, it is your fault.
  3. You are responsible for yourself. If you are an easy target,it is your fault; stop being an easy target.
  4. PvP is what EVE is based on. If you dislike PvP, then this is truly not the game for you.

That bleeding heart liberal "don't blame the victim" crap isn't going to fly in this community. This is a video game. This is EVE Online. You are responsible for yourself.

Lucas Kell wrote:
If the target was capable of fighting back


Everyone in EVE Online is capable of fighting back and evading. What is so hard for you and your ilk to understand about that?

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#335 - 2014-08-30 00:37:24 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, stop saying it's the fault of the target.


In EVE Online it is.

  1. You are responsible for your own education. If you are ignorant, it is your fault.
  2. You are responsible for your own safety. If you explode, it is your fault.
  3. You are responsible for yourself. If you are an easy target,it is your fault; stop being an easy target.
  4. PvP is what EVE is based on. If you dislike PvP, then this is truly not the game for you.

That bleeding heart liberal "don't blame the victim" crap isn't going to fly in this community. This is a video game. This is EVE Online. You are responsible for yourself.

Lucas Kell wrote:
If the target was capable of fighting back


Everyone in EVE Online is capable of fighting back and evading. What is so hard for you and your ilk to understand about that?


This

All of this

If you so not understand this, you do not understand this game

As Falcon alluded to, I dont care if only 50 people play EVE and all of them are better than me, Id rather this than anything else.

The only game Id move to would be like this, but with even less "high sec".

I came to this game because of these things, and this is the only game providing them. There are many others that dont. If you dont like that this game does, go away.

You are spoiled for choice, we arent.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#336 - 2014-08-30 00:42:49 UTC
If you replace the word "griefing" with "emergent" you will begin to see things from CCPs point of view.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#337 - 2014-08-30 01:38:51 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Why, and please answer this, would I happily throw my Tengu at 10 battleships? You say that I won't fight someone unless I know I will win, you are damn right I will do just that. I will do my damndest to make sure I will win that fight. And if that fight is impossible to win, I will not fight needlessly waste a ship.
lol, I didn't say you are risk averse for nto taking on unfavourable odd, but you guys don;t take on partially favourable odds. Basically if your tengu has to take on more than an iteron, you need 10x the numbers and 50 neutral logi before you'll engage. That's what most highsec wardeccers are like, because they MUST have their 95+% efficiency or they run out of killboard porn to fap over.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
You seem to think that as a Wardeccer, all I want to is kill highsec 'carebears' and laugh at them, I do not, I want fights. Everytime I get a small gang fight, everytime I someone want's to solo me. I enjoy that more than anything else in the game, and yes before you even say it I do enjoy it more than shooting some poor idiot who wants to run a lvl 4 mission with his faction fitted shield tanked apoc.
Utter bull. If you guys wanted fights, you'd dec groups that can fight back, not 1500 nub corps filled with industrial pilots.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Do you honestly think that a 500+ fleet will run into a fight they are not sure they will win? Or will they reship into something that would counter the enemy? It's the same for everything else, a person will go out of his way to make sure he/she will come out on top, High/low/null and IRL. It's never changed, and it never will.
Yes. I've been in those fleets. We aim to win, and we do whatever we can to do so, but we are in no way sure of success, and sometimes we wipe. That's the game. If you only ever engage when you are sure you'll win, what's the point?

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
You have created a this little idea inside your head, that all wardecers want is a easy kill. I'm sorry but you must have never actually joined a Merc corp. So before you understand that small subgroup in this entity of EVE, you really have no right to say, what I want. You are constantly coming up with these little 'facts' inside your head, without providing your burden of truth. And when confronted about it, you either sidestep the question, ignore it entirely, or twist it with more of your 'facts' while never actually delivering your burden of truth.
I haven't been in a merc corp? That's news to me. You'd be surprised how many different types of corps I've been in. Even if I hadn't though, a cursory glance at the war dec stats coming back from CREST (you can see these on zkb) shows the incredibly one sided wars most major merc corps have.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I'm sure you've heard this before, but judging by how you complain so much about the game, why don't you just quit right now? You are what most Merc corps find hilarious, or annoying to the point of loathing. You do not, or can not, listen to what is plainly laid out before you.
Perhaps because I like EVE? And maybe because I don;t "complain" about it, but I put forward my opinion on how I feel the game should go, just like you do. Oh I'm sorry, am I only allowed an opinion if you agree with it?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#338 - 2014-08-30 01:42:02 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ah, I see he's switched to the "Good risk management = risk aversion" fallacy again.

No, Lucas, smart gameplay does not equal cowardice. Nor is there any moral equivalency between the two.
So to clarify, If I refuse to undock in a T3 because a rookie ship has a gun and therefore might eventually be able to kill me (although the chance is so minimal it's impossible to measure), then I'm mitigating that minimal risk, not being risk averse?

In that case, carebears refusing to undock or avoiding wardecs by dropping or reforming corps are also just mitigating risk. Therefore there is no such thing as risk aversion. I'll remember that next time someone calls someone else risk averse and send them your way so you can explain it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#339 - 2014-08-30 01:53:36 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol, stop saying it's the fault of the target.


In EVE Online it is.

  1. You are responsible for your own education. If you are ignorant, it is your fault.
  2. You are responsible for your own safety. If you explode, it is your fault.
  3. You are responsible for yourself. If you are an easy target,it is your fault; stop being an easy target.
  4. PvP is what EVE is based on. If you dislike PvP, then this is truly not the game for you.

That bleeding heart liberal "don't blame the victim" crap isn't going to fly in this community. This is a video game. This is EVE Online. You are responsible for yourself.
Right. But that still doesn't change the fact that if a wardeccer ONLY decs targets that can't possibly fight back, the fact that none of there targets can fight back isn't the fault of the targets, it's the target selection criteria. It's like if you only pick rotten apples out of a batch, it's not the apples fault that all of your apples are rotten.

It's not me being a bleeding heart liberal to point out that idiots that cry about how risk averse their targets are are idiots becuase they only ever pick risk averse targets. It is funny though that you think that you get to decide if any crap is going to fly in this community, as if I'm supposed to care what you think, even remotely. You've pretty much guaranteed that I'll never take you seriously since you appear to be unable to comprehend basic English and leap to conclusions faster than flies on ****.

But please, continue to misunderstand posts and screech like a child. It's pretty hilarious to read.

In the meantime, I'll continue to accept that nothing will change, and thus continue to repeat:
ATTENTION PLAYERS: If you don't want to be wardecced, the best defense is remaining in an NPC corp where the wardeccers have no power. In fact, in most instances NPC corps are better, so if you are in highsec, just stick to NPC corps.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#340 - 2014-08-30 01:57:23 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
That bleeding heart liberal "don't blame the victim" crap isn't going to fly in this community.

Bleeding heart liberal here. It's not that it's crap. It's that it's not applicable in a game where your playing it constitutes consent to being a target of aggression, theft, so on and so forth.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)