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War Decs as a griefing tool

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Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2014-08-29 10:56:42 UTC
How did I ever miss this thread?

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#202 - 2014-08-29 10:58:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lol? Are you serious? EVE has a serious new player problem right now,


No it doesn't. New players are positivly spoiled when compared to what I went through.
Oh OK, I guess CCP were wrong about that at fanfest then. My bad.


Go look at all of those other MMOs that have come and died over the last decade, they would kill for EVEs record on keeping players.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#203 - 2014-08-29 10:59:00 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
How did I ever miss this thread?



I assumed you were lurking anyway

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#204 - 2014-08-29 11:02:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Getting rid of them is dumping a massive market segment for absolutely zero gain.


Which is EXACTLY what the "ban ganking and wardecs!" crowd comes on here, every day, to suggest to CCP. Screwing over your established playerbase to chase theoretical casuals.

Hooray for cognitive dissonance!
I don't think the existing playerbase should be screwed over, but they aren't screwed over by allowing some noobs to live and play their own way. They need to find a balance. I'm of the opinion that generating more income would be better for the whole playerbase, new and old, and that in order to make things better for the newer players (and thus allowing them to become old), the existing playerbase will need to make small concessions.

I really do love this idea that some random noob wants to sit and do crappy mission for crappy income, you try to blow them up and CCP doesn't let you, then you fall about the floor screaming "you've screwed us CCP! SCREWED! We can't gank unreasonably easy and worthless targets just to make them cry anymore! SCREWED!".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#205 - 2014-08-29 11:03:51 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
How did I ever miss this thread?



I assumed you were lurking anyway
I assumed that he was making a list of people to say "Hello there" to.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#206 - 2014-08-29 11:04:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

I really do love this idea that some random noob wants to sit and do crappy mission for crappy income, you try to blow them up and CCP doesn't let you, then you fall about the floor screaming "you've screwed us CCP! SCREWED! We can't gank unreasonably easy and worthless targets just to make them cry anymore! SCREWED!".



No one has even alluded to that.

You seem to be giving in to the tabloid-esque rhetoric that the WoW brigade around here seem to like to peddle.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#207 - 2014-08-29 11:06:47 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
No they dont

Thats as ridiculous as the "Gankers are always up in arms when non-combat ships get a buff" argument

Its complete rubbish and you know it.
Of course they do. You see it all the time! People throwing around "entitled carbears" and demanding the destruction of NPC corps, to force people to fight. I can;t count the number of times I've seen people whining about how someone avoided a wardec and how unfair it is that they paid for their wardec and now have no targets to shoot.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Valkin Mordirc
#208 - 2014-08-29 11:10:01 UTC
On the subject of Wardec being only griefing tools, I thought EVE allowed you be the bad guy, not the MMO where everyone skips around gallantly sings, 'I love you'.


If it wasn't for Wardeccers and Suicide Gankers, Highsec would be completely Tame. They bring the Bad to highsec. Pirate
#DeleteTheWeak
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#209 - 2014-08-29 11:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
No they dont

Thats as ridiculous as the "Gankers are always up in arms when non-combat ships get a buff" argument

Its complete rubbish and you know it.
Of course they do. You see it all the time! People throwing around "entitled carbears" and demanding the destruction of NPC corps, to force people to fight. I can;t count the number of times I've seen people whining about how someone avoided a wardec and how unfair it is that they paid for their wardec and now have no targets to shoot.


You cant count it because it hasnt happened.

Please link me to one single place where someone genuinely asking for help (not for the game to be changed around his wishes) was called an entitled carebear.

Go on

Ill wait

And of COURSE NPC corps are bad. They are as bad as using Wardecs to avoid CONCORD. Ive said that already.

They have no purpose other than to avoid conflict and basically exploit mechanics.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#210 - 2014-08-29 11:14:49 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Sorry ive been a bit silly and missed a page lol

Its not really people like me killing the game im pretty much stilll a rookie and learning but i was out of highsec at 2mil to galmil then to nullsec (which is a much better life than highsec) at 4mil sp i still have friends i joined with who blanket themselves in the safety of highsec but i think the peoole who are killing the game are the ones who are not giving rookies a chance to learn the game be it a 2 week player who bought a plex and moved it in a silly ship and got ganked by a code operative, allbeit if that happens to most rookies it enough to just logoff and say the game is stupid and never play again, you could argue that its not the game for the rookie when that happens but rookies dont know any better and need to learn

Again sorry for misreading some of this



Its ok, Im glad to read this reply.

And I entirely agree, the game is hard for rookies to learn. If you look over some of what Ive said, I place the blame squarely on CEOs who refuse to help, and see new players as cash cows and minions.

Of course, the rookie also has to be willingly to learn and willing to take onboard the advice they are given.

There's another lesser problem too of new players who (for all the best intent and reason) shrug off losses as part of the game (which it is and they should) but not realise that losing four retrievers in two days because they were mining during war is not acceptable. Again though, if its not explained to them why, then the situation will simply repeat as they are farmed by those who dec for kills.


Yeah i kinda use to shrug off losses till such a stage i realised t3's started getting expensive and didnt really do much when flying solo and getting hotdropped by the 10man frig/cruiser gangs in lowsec, but its all learning and sometimes you actually feel the shiney ships pain when you drop 15blops onto it and pod him back to whereever he came from. I was never part of highsec corps because i came to this game solely to pvp but my friends have been in situations where they have dropped to npc corps because of wardecs, i would probably do the same because its hard to compete and also expensive in this game when you have no experience of pvp, its like shooting blind chickens with a shotgun

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Valkin Mordirc
#211 - 2014-08-29 11:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Quote:
Of course they do. You see it all the time! People throwing around "entitled carbears" and demanding the destruction of NPC corps, to force people to fight. I can't count the number of times I've seen people whining about how someone avoided a wardec and how unfair it is that they paid for their wardec and now have no targets to shoot.



I've been in Wardeccing Mercs the pretty much entire time I've been playing EVE, I have never once been angry that a Wartarget wouldn't fight me. Being blue balled is annoying, sure. But they are allowed to dock up and not come out. I'm in no position to demand a 'UNDOCK THIS PERSON BECAUSE I'M AT WAR WITH HIM AND STUFF'

I don't think any Merc feels like they are entitled for stupidity like that.


However I fully feel that every player should be in a player ran corp. This a fundamental part of EVE. It encourages cooperation, builds friendships, and in the end, sometimes creates a very powerful force to be reckoned with. If every new player ran away and hid when a Merc corp came knocking, nothing new would be made, but that being that, is no reason for wardecs to go away. Wardecs is a tool in some ways to prep people for EVE, they can experienced combat in a more controlled environment. Even if it's a mining corp, they still will learn tons of new thing about the game itself if they just play the FULL game, not just the part they want to.

NPC corps should be the lowest place on the totem poll. Where the only place you can go, is up.
#DeleteTheWeak
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#212 - 2014-08-29 11:16:43 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I was wondering when Lucas would find this thread. Took longer than I expected.
Been busy :D

baltec1 wrote:
Go look at all of those other MMOs that have come and died over the last decade, they would kill for EVEs record on keeping players.
Another overused and badly thought out argument. Funny thing is that WoW caters to the antisocial solo carebears more than most other games and yet has more players than EVE and a long standing playerbase, so clearly the key to MMOs doesn't lie in how unfriendly it is to carebears.

And it doesn't change the fact that EVE is not attracting and holding new players at a strong enough rate. We're already seeing CCP downsizing their team, and they haven't released sub numbers this year so clearly there's issues. Who knows though, maybe all is fine. Let's continue to alienate new players and see how it all goes.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#213 - 2014-08-29 11:21:14 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
No one has even alluded to that.

You seem to be giving in to the tabloid-esque rhetoric that the WoW brigade around here seem to like to peddle.
Well you alluded to it. You considered changes to make the game more appealing to casuals to be "Screwing over your established playerbase". I think that a balance can be found to appeal to them and keep the existing playerbase happy, but it will mean the existing playerbase will have to be more flexible and accepts some changes that they don't particularly want. The problem is they won't. The existing playerbase explodes into a rage every time anything gets changed and negatively impacts them in the slightest, no matter how necessary the change.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#214 - 2014-08-29 11:21:22 UTC
Quote:
Let's continue to attract new players who aren't anti-social soloists and see how it all goes.


is how those arguing with you see it, Mr Kell

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#215 - 2014-08-29 11:21:52 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
it is easier to stay in a NPC corp which does the game no good.
True, NPC corps should be removed or nerfed so hard that anyone in them for an extended period gets stress-related stomach ulcers.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#216 - 2014-08-29 11:22:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
You considered changes to make the game more appealing to casuals to be "Screwing over your established playerbase".


Please link me to the post I made that you are quoting, because I don't recall saying that.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#217 - 2014-08-29 11:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Lucas Kell wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
I was wondering when Lucas would find this thread. Took longer than I expected.
Been busy :D
You should have stayed busy tbh.

Quote:
Another overused and badly thought out argument. Funny thing is that WoW caters to the antisocial solo carebears more than most other games and yet has more players than EVE and a long standing playerbase, so clearly the key to MMOs doesn't lie in how unfriendly it is to carebears.
WoW caters to the lowest common denominator, the masses. Eve does not, the words chalk and cheese spring to mind.

Quote:
And it doesn't change the fact that EVE is not attracting and holding new players at a strong enough rate. We're already seeing CCP downsizing their team
That's much more likely to be something to do with the scrapping of WoD, and the winding down of Dust than problems with Eve itself. There's also this thing called churn, IIRC CCP are actually unusual in the industry with respect to the amount of time they keep their employees, it's longer than most.

Quote:
and they haven't released sub numbers this year so clearly there's issues. Who knows though, maybe all is fine. Let's continue to alienate new players and see how it all goes.
Pure speculation on your part.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#218 - 2014-08-29 11:26:41 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
You cant count it because it hasnt happened.

Please link me to one single place where someone genuinely asking for help (not for the game to be changed around his wishes) was called an entitled carebear.

Go on

Ill wait

And of COURSE NPC corps are bad. They are as bad as using Wardecs to avoid CONCORD. Ive said that already.

They have no purpose other than to avoid conflict and basically exploit mechanics.
That's ignoring what I said pretty well! I guess because if you told me to go find a post where someone complains that wardecs should be less avoidable it would have been easy, so you chose to tell me to find something I never said. I didn't say at any point that I've seen loads of posts with legitimate noobs with questions being called entitled carebears (though that in no way means it's never happened, but searching for "entitled carebear" yields too many results for me to bother looking).

And no, NPC corps are brilliant. They provide a haven for people that don't want to be fodder for gankers that are concord averse.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#219 - 2014-08-29 11:31:18 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Quote:
Let's fail to attract new players who aren't anti-social soloists and see how it all goes.
is how those arguing with you see it, Mr Kell
FTFY.


Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
You considered changes to make the game more appealing to casuals to be "Screwing over your established playerbase".
Please link me to the post I made that you are quoting, because I don't recall saying that.
I'll give you that one, it was Kaarous Aldurald. The point is the same though, it's not "noone" saying that.

Valkin Mordirc wrote:
However I fully feel that every player should be in a player ran corp. This a fundamental part of EVE. It encourages cooperation, builds friendships, and in the end, sometimes creates a very powerful force to be reckoned with.
Yes, but what it normally does is provide you with easy targets, right? You don;t want NPC corps so noone can avoid you like that

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#220 - 2014-08-29 11:31:37 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
you chose to tell me to find something I never said.



Lucas Kell wrote:
Of course they do. You see it all the time! People throwing around "entitled carbears" and demanding the destruction of NPC corps, to force people to fight..


Ok dude, whatever you say.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann