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War Decs as a griefing tool

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Prince Kobol
#161 - 2014-08-29 07:54:44 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:

The answer to this question is, the 'victims' need to stop being terrible at EVE. No amount of game mechanics (within reason) will save them from themselves.
lol, so as usual, it's all of the noobs fault that they are unable to defend against people well experienced and prepared in wars, even though those same people could war with competent groups thus generating actual content?


Yes.

It doesn't take a genius to either work out how to avoid being killed in a war (there are numerous ways) or simply to ask for help and then use the advice given.


Yeah they will inevitable learn that dropping corp is the easiest way out. They then learn that it is easier to stay in a NPC corp which does the game no good.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#162 - 2014-08-29 07:55:38 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

The easiest way to avoid a War Dec is to simply drop corp.



Nope. Its this kind of attitude that is the problem.

Try teaching your new players that adapting to the new situation is better than running away and using game mechanics to exploit, and you will find they you end up with a better crop of pilots in the long run.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#163 - 2014-08-29 07:57:03 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


Yeah they will inevitable learn that dropping corp is the easiest way out.


Except it isnt

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Prince Kobol
#164 - 2014-08-29 07:59:26 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

The easiest way to avoid a War Dec is to simply drop corp.



Nope. Its this kind of attitude that is the problem.

Try teaching your new players that adapting to the new situation is better than running away and using game mechanics to exploit, and you will find they you end up with a better crop of pilots in the long run.



I agree its a ****** attitude but that is what most people will do / actually do because it is the easiest option.

Its like everything in Eve, you give people 2 choices, one is fraught with danger, requires thought and will still mostly likely end up with your ship being blown up or the easy option which is to dock up, drop corp and wait, the majority will go with dropping corp.


Prince Kobol
#165 - 2014-08-29 08:00:59 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


Yeah they will inevitable learn that dropping corp is the easiest way out.


Except it isnt



Of course it is. There is no other option that is easier then dropping corp and staying in a NPC corp to get away from a war dec if you want to stay in High Sec.

I am not saying it is the best option, but it is certainly the easiest.

If there is an easier way then tell everybody.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#166 - 2014-08-29 08:01:45 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


I agree its a ****** attitude but that is what most people will do / actually do because it is the easiest option.

Its like everything in Eve, you give people 2 choices, one is fraught with danger, requires thought and will still mostly likely end up with your ship being blown up or the easy option which is to dock up, drop corp and wait, the majority will go with dropping corp.


But its NOT the easiest option.

Its SO much less hassle to press "cloak" when the enemy comesin system and AFK cloak the guy into boredom. That is the most basic survival lesson every new player should be taught after being taught to train the ability to use Proto Cloak I

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Prince Kobol
#167 - 2014-08-29 08:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


I agree its a ****** attitude but that is what most people will do / actually do because it is the easiest option.

Its like everything in Eve, you give people 2 choices, one is fraught with danger, requires thought and will still mostly likely end up with your ship being blown up or the easy option which is to dock up, drop corp and wait, the majority will go with dropping corp.


But its NOT the easiest option.

Its SO much less hassle to press "cloak" when the enemy comesin system and AFK cloak the guy into boredom. That is the most basic survival lesson every new player should be taught after being taught to train the ability to use Proto Cloak I


Might fun for a few hours but they will want to go back to mining / mission running, some other tedious High Sec activity and when they lose their ship they will just drop corp.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#168 - 2014-08-29 08:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Prince Kobol wrote:

Might fun for a few hours but they are want to go back to mining / mission running, so other tedious HIgh Sec activity and when they lose their ship they will just drop corp.


Im not about to list the many many ways you can teach your own new players how to not die in a war.

If they want to drop corp, by all means they can, but they wouldnt be getting back into any corp I have a say in if they did.

If they cant use Local or DScan, then teach them or kick them.

These are not the only options.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#169 - 2014-08-29 08:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
See, the "If you wardec them they'll just stay in NPC corps forever" argument doesn't exactly show what people think it does.

It does not, for example, show a necessity to declaw wardecs.

It does, however, show that NPC corps have too many positives, and not enough negatives when compared to a player corp. A player that has been in an NPC corp for more than a month should have the tax rate doubled. They should not be permanent homes, they should be temporary to assist in intra corp movement, or temporary vestiges for new players from which to find a player corp.

EVE will never keep new players by pandering to this antisocial solo player bullshit. EVE will keep new players by playing to it's strength, and it's strength is social interaction and participation in the game society at large.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Prince Kobol
#170 - 2014-08-29 08:18:39 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Might fun for a few hours but they are want to go back to mining / mission running, so other tedious HIgh Sec activity and when they lose their ship they will just drop corp.


Im not about to list the many many ways you can teach your own new players how to not die in a war.

If they want to drop corp, by all means they can, but they wouldnt be getting back into any corp I have a say in if they did.

If they cant use Local or DScan, then teach them or kick them.

These are the only options.


I am not disputing that there are not many ways to avoid losing your ship in a war but you see you have stumbled onto another problem.

How not to die in a war, not how to fight back because you know it will be ultimately futile and it only encourages the war deccers.

So what you are saying is I will show how for the next 7 days how to use your watch list so you know when they are online, move to a much quieter area of space so its easier to spot any alts that are following / watching you, use evewho and z billboard to get a fairly good idea who is in their corp, where they like to fly, what ships certain pilots like to use etc etc

All great advice, or just drop corp, join x channel and continue as normal.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#171 - 2014-08-29 08:19:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
See, the "If you wardec them they'll just stay in NPC corps forever" argument doesn't exactly show what people think it does.

It does not, for example, show a necessity to declaw wardecs.

It does, however, show that NPC corps have too many positives, and not enough negatives when compared to a player corp. A player that has been in an NPC corp for more than a month should have the tax rate doubled. They should not be permanent homes, they should be temporary to assist in intra corp movement, or temporary vestiges for new players from which to find a player corp.

EVE will never keep new players by pandering to this antisocial solo player bullshit. EVE will keep new players by playing to it's strength, and it's strength is social interaction and participation in the game society at large.


This ^

If I truely thought there was no harm in NPC corps, I wouldnt have a problem advising new players to drop corp

But NPC corps are an insidious awfulness that should be limited only to new players who havent joined a corp yet.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#172 - 2014-08-29 08:19:55 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Might fun for a few hours but they are want to go back to mining / mission running, so other tedious HIgh Sec activity and when they lose their ship they will just drop corp.


Im not about to list the many many ways you can teach your own new players how to not die in a war.

If they want to drop corp, by all means they can, but they wouldnt be getting back into any corp I have a say in if they did.

If they cant use Local or DScan, then teach them or kick them.

These are the only options.


I am not disputing that there are not many ways to avoid losing your ship in a war but you see you have stumbled onto another problem.

How not to die in a war, not how to fight back because you know it will be ultimately futile and it only encourages the war deccers.

So what you are saying is I will show how for the next 7 days how to use your watch list so you know when they are online, move to a much quieter area of space so its easier to spot any alts that are following / watching you, use evewho and z billboard to get a fairly good idea who is in their corp, where they like to fly, what ships certain pilots like to use etc etc

All great advice, or just drop corp, join x channel and continue as normal.


So... you advise drop corp because it saves you work as a CEO?

Ok.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Prince Kobol
#173 - 2014-08-29 08:22:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
See, the "If you wardec them they'll just stay in NPC corps forever" argument doesn't exactly show what people think it does.

It does not, for example, show a necessity to declaw wardecs.

It does, however, show that NPC corps have too many positives, and not enough negatives when compared to a player corp. A player that has been in an NPC corp for more than a month should have the tax rate doubled. They should not be permanent homes, they should be temporary to assist in intra corp movement, or temporary vestiges for new players from which to find a player corp.

EVE will never keep new players by pandering to this antisocial solo player bullshit. EVE will keep new players by playing to it's strength, and it's strength is social interaction and participation in the game society at large.


I have argued a few times that NPC corps should be hit with a nerf bat of epic size. For me a NPC corp should be a temporary place whilst searching a for new corp, selling your character, if you taking a break, basically where it shouldn't matter if the tax rate is like 50%.

However I doubt CCP will ever have the balls to touch NPC Corps.
Prince Kobol
#174 - 2014-08-29 08:29:00 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Might fun for a few hours but they are want to go back to mining / mission running, so other tedious HIgh Sec activity and when they lose their ship they will just drop corp.


Im not about to list the many many ways you can teach your own new players how to not die in a war.

If they want to drop corp, by all means they can, but they wouldnt be getting back into any corp I have a say in if they did.

If they cant use Local or DScan, then teach them or kick them.

These are the only options.


I am not disputing that there are not many ways to avoid losing your ship in a war but you see you have stumbled onto another problem.

How not to die in a war, not how to fight back because you know it will be ultimately futile and it only encourages the war deccers.

So what you are saying is I will show how for the next 7 days how to use your watch list so you know when they are online, move to a much quieter area of space so its easier to spot any alts that are following / watching you, use evewho and z billboard to get a fairly good idea who is in their corp, where they like to fly, what ships certain pilots like to use etc etc

All great advice, or just drop corp, join x channel and continue as normal.


So... you advise drop corp because it saves you work as a CEO?

Ok.


I have been involved in a quite a few war decs very early on in my Eve life. In each war we tried to put up a fight, we tried moving, we tried avoiding them however they always got us.

We were so out matched terms of ships and experience it was ridiculous.

I bolded experience because that is what matters the most. Most guys who do the war deccing have been playing for years, they know all the ins and outs, all the tricks. Its not the ships that matter its the experience that wins.

They know at some point the new guys will panic, make a mistake and bang, gotcha.

So yeah, most CEO's will just tell their guys to drop corp.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#175 - 2014-08-29 08:29:27 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


I have argued a few times that NPC corps should be hit with a nerf bat of epic size. For me a NPC corp should be a temporary place whilst searching a for new corp, selling your character, if you taking a break, basically where it shouldn't matter if the tax rate is like 50%.

However I doubt CCP will ever have the balls to touch NPC Corps.


Let me make it clear, Im not trying to be aggressive towards you, Im being aggressive towards this idea that if people dont want to learn and dont want to adapt, then this game should cater for them at the expense of those who can and do.

If we keep sending our new players to NPC corps and not teaching them, it simply progresses the myth that NPC corps exist to avoid Decs, which is as poor a use of them as using a Dec to evade CONCORD in the first place.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#176 - 2014-08-29 08:30:54 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

However I doubt CCP will ever have the balls to touch NPC Corps.


I didn't think they'd ever have the gall to publicly endorse suicide ganking as a profession and style of gameplay, but I was proved wrong.

And given considerably more hope for the future of this game than I'd had in a while, what's more.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#177 - 2014-08-29 08:31:47 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

So yeah, most CEO's will just tell their guys to drop corp.


So yeah, most CEOs dont deserve the right of owning a corp.

Ripping off their new players and giving terrible advice.

They make me sick, and the more I keep hearing about it, the more it makes me WANT to dec their corps, not to hurt their new players but to strip them of their corp because they do nothing for their players but use them to make isk.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#178 - 2014-08-29 08:33:34 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
See, the "If you wardec them they'll just stay in NPC corps forever" argument doesn't exactly show what people think it does.

It does not, for example, show a necessity to declaw wardecs.

It does, however, show that NPC corps have too many positives, and not enough negatives when compared to a player corp. A player that has been in an NPC corp for more than a month should have the tax rate doubled. They should not be permanent homes, they should be temporary to assist in intra corp movement, or temporary vestiges for new players from which to find a player corp.

EVE will never keep new players by pandering to this antisocial solo player bullshit. EVE will keep new players by playing to it's strength, and it's strength is social interaction and participation in the game society at large.


I have argued a few times that NPC corps should be hit with a nerf bat of epic size. For me a NPC corp should be a temporary place whilst searching a for new corp, selling your character, if you taking a break, basically where it shouldn't matter if the tax rate is like 50%.

However I doubt CCP will ever have the balls to touch NPC Corps.


Us this because your war targets jump to npc corps? If players are jumping to npc corps it usually means they cant compete, so instead of chasing them around maybe you should look to lowsec or nullsec uf you wish to pvp, you could argue that highsec should only be a place to learn and you have to leave after a certain amount of time to a 0.4 or below system so that players can learn basics.

The way it sounds is your not happy that you cant always get to shoot your target so you want it nerfed, move to lowsec or null and your problem is sorted

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Prince Kobol
#179 - 2014-08-29 08:38:21 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


I have argued a few times that NPC corps should be hit with a nerf bat of epic size. For me a NPC corp should be a temporary place whilst searching a for new corp, selling your character, if you taking a break, basically where it shouldn't matter if the tax rate is like 50%.

However I doubt CCP will ever have the balls to touch NPC Corps.


Let me make it clear, Im not trying to be aggressive towards you, Im being aggressive towards this idea that if people dont want to learn and dont want to adapt, then this game should cater for them at the expense of those who can and do.

If we keep sending our new players to NPC corps and not teaching them, it simply progresses the myth that NPC corps exist to avoid Decs, which is as poor a use of them as using a Dec to evade CONCORD in the first place.



I completely understand it not towards me. I totally agree that it is **** and for me personally I believe NPC corps is one of the major contributing factors why Eve is stagnating.

NPC Corps do absolutely nothing positive for Eve.

For me, it was War Decs that got me out of High Sec. I decided to keep my head down in low sec during one and realised that they would not follow me and in the following days realised that low sec wasn't that bad.

My personal advice to anybody who is ever told to drop corp and join a NPC corp is to exactly that, drop corp but DO NOT go back. Find another corp, preferable one outside of High Sec as that is where Eve really shines.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#180 - 2014-08-29 08:39:06 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:

Us this because your war targets jump to npc corps?


I'm not sure if you're deliberately not paying attention, or if you just weren't bothering to listen to the conversation.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.