These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The costs of PVP is too much for new players
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2014-08-28 12:00:12 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Tippia wrote:

It's far more likely that the 10M guy will never learn to fit his ship properly and will never actually get into PvP because he's so focused imaginary and ultimately irrelevant “must haves” (such as the higher-tiered equipment that ratchets up the cost). It's just ye olde “don't do X until you have Y” in monetary form, and it is as bad an idea here as it is everywhere else.

wasted the fist year playing exactly like this


Good thing you rectified that.

Pirate


Yarr indeed.

Here is the part I always try to point out to people. When "the bad guys" get a convert, that person is HAPPY. Most of them don't even want to open their "Industry" skill tab to look at how many skillpoints they put in mining, or whatever, once they've come around.

This is a fun, rewarding style of gameplay. We don't do it because we're evil, or sociopaths, or acting out some imaginary frustrations.

It is fun to shoot other people in a video game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-08-28 12:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Crumplecorn wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Be serious, those kind of ships (aka the all mighty derp tron of doom) are only viable in huge numbers in attrition wars, which is just a minimal part of pvp


Try going with them solo or in a small gang and be facesmashed 1 v many by the first serious guy you meet
Wow. A ship that works in some circumstances, but doesn't in others. Amazing. Hard to believe, even.



I'm always amazed at how much people fail at reading.

What i said is stating that a new player should only go in derptrons and the like is absurd because the place where that works is just a small piece, a very small piece, of what pvp is, and that if a player can't afford the right tool for the remaining part of PvP that he can have access to given his skills, that is a problem.

Tippia wrote:
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
A new player with a **** fit is cannon fodder, a new player in a decent fit might have a chance given the right engagement. So if the new player can't afford the decent fit, IT IS a problem, because he'll just remain cannon fodder, and most likely get discouraged and call it quits with pvp untill **** knows when
Close but not quite.
A new player without the experience of what his ship is capable of is cannon fodder. He has no ability to judge what the right engagement is. Any (non-stupid) fit is decent given the right circumstances, and it's the composition rather than the cost that determines the stupidity of the fit. The trick lies in learning what those circumstances are.

A new player in a 10M ship is far more cannon fodder than one in a 2M ship for the simple reason that the former will lack the experience of the latter (in fact, he might be dangerously overconfident that his 10M will carry the day, when it will actually do nothing of the kind), and the gap will only increase the longer it takes for the 10M guy to stop wasting money.

It's far more likely that the 10M guy will never learn to fit his ship properly and will never actually get into PvP because he's so focused imaginary and ultimately irrelevant “must haves” (such as the higher-tiered equipment that ratchets up the cost). It's just ye olde “don't do X until you have Y” in monetary form, and it is as bad an idea here as it is everywhere else.

Quote:
I started solo PvP ing at 1.5 mil SP, my incursus fits costed me around 10 mills
That's needlessly late and laughably overpriced.



I don't agree. A new player in a derp fit (cost wise) might actually learn absolutely nothing, or vastly underestimate the potential performance of the hull. just look at how many people around underestimate the atron, pretty much nobody considers them a threatening frig exactly because of derptron. What do you learn really when the fight is absolutely one sided, and not just because of piloting skills and mistake, but because of hard math? Personally, i learned pretty much nothing untill i started flying proper fits. I considered the Merlin terribad, because as a short range brawler i got absolutely murdered by other short range brawlers, without a chance to do anything.

A new player in a derptron will engage target x and lose, thus concluding that a blaster atron doesn't work against target x, where in truth the problem was simply having half the dps and tank of a proper atron, while in fact i can't count the amount of times i spanked blaster comets in my blaster atron loading null exploiting the range bonus.

A new player in a proper fight might still lose to said target, but it will be closer, and it might make him go "hey, maybe if..."




To sum it up, OP has a point. ISK is a problem for people new to pvp, even if it's just frigs, because unless you're participating in large ops involving attrition fits, or play the hero suicide tackle (boring after the first 2 times, and tbh most doctrines i see lately at least in FW space have their own mid to heavy tackle, or dedicated inties, so the hero tackle thing is more like "ehi, you're useless, but let's make you run with us and pretend you're not"), for solo or small gang you need proper fit, that will set you back 6 to 9 mil on average, depending on hull and fit.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#83 - 2014-08-28 12:02:52 UTC
Better idea

Bring your noobs with you on your operations

Teach by doing.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#84 - 2014-08-28 12:21:15 UTC
Otuk Andven wrote:
One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?


You could always buy plex and sell it for isk. Then you can spend less time PvE'ing and more time PvP'ing.

Sorry, had to say it.

Anyway, I agree with what your saying. There is a way though but it takes trust between corp mates. Since corp members can fight each other freely any where and at any time, they can pvp each other. First to start losing hull loses (basically what duels should have been). Have a logi nearby to repair the combatants after the fight is over. No ship lost and no isk spent repairing. They can even practice different situation and practice different methods involving those situations. Like being caught at a gate.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2014-08-28 12:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
I don't agree.
That's ok. History agrees with me.
It agrees with me to such a great degree that the d'oh in the mythical blue doughnut was founded on the very principle I mentioned.

Quote:
A new player in a derp fit (cost wise) might actually learn absolutely nothing, or vastly underestimate the potential performance of the hull.
Unlikely to the point of almost being impossible. He will learn what his ship can do. He will also notice the gradual change as he ticks off the skills on his charsheet, and can extrapolate from there. He sees the continuum rather than a big almost binary “on/off” switch that a pointlessly expensive fit provides.

Quote:
just look at how many people around underestimate the atron, pretty much nobody considers them a threatening frig exactly because of derptron.
Those would be the people who assume that it is bad because of the fit, rather than the ones who actually fly them. So I don't quite see how that strengthens your case…

Quote:
A new player in a derptron will engage target x and lose, thus concluding that
…in its current configuration, it does not work. So you come back to it in a different one, with upgraded skills or different modules. You experiment. You know that it works against other things, so you examine why it didn't against this one. You do all of this because you have that much more experience than if you only flew once you had satisfied some unreasonably high standard.

A new player in a 10M frigate will insta-explode and not be able to analyse what happened, because he only has a fraction of the experience and has just been dealt a far more dramatic blow — one that is much harder for him to distance himself from. He has no frame of reference for how things were going and why. The same lack of experience will also mean that it will not be a closer fight. Quite the opposite.

Quote:
To sum it up, OP has a point. ISK is a problem for people new to pvp
No. OP has no point — he is just perpetuating a very sad and wholly incorrect myth. ISK is not a problem for people new to PvP — it's a problem for people who think that ISK will solve their problems and who refuse to experiment with anything less than “the best” (which means they don't actually experiment at all). The solution to that problem is to teach them that this way of thinking only leads to empty wallets and no useful experience.

The benefit you get from flying five 2M frigates is an order of magnitude larger than you get from flying one 10M-frigate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2014-08-28 12:26:03 UTC
This is what happens when you think isk wins fights.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#87 - 2014-08-28 12:45:06 UTC
I actually agree a lot more with OP then I'd like to admit. Doctor Knuckles has a few good points. I no longer pretend PVP is fun for newbies. I've started to accept newbies are simply content to be farmed in some sort of pyramid game. That's fine, but let's not pretend it's any different, or that the right engagements for these guys are easy to find, or that it doesn't take a truckton of time to make some decent ISK when you start out with nothing. It simply does, and it is frustrating as hell to be losing ships when you don't have a moneytrain, or it gets derailed every time you stick your neck out. Newbies that want to PVP should look into corps that actively teach PVP mechanics and are willing to commit some ISK to that. On their own they are sharkfood.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#88 - 2014-08-28 12:46:18 UTC
The title says nothing about solo PvP

Why on earth would anyone do that if they had a choice?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2014-08-28 12:53:04 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
The title says nothing about solo PvP

Why on earth would anyone do that if they had a choice?


There are reasons
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2014-08-28 12:53:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
This is what happens when you think isk wins fights.

5 relatively newbie guys with some sort of semblance of inteligence in meta3/4 fitted frigs can take down a ship worth 10x the value of their hulls combined.



...unless it's a domi. hate those bitchesSad



either way, point is, I'm in agreement with baltec and tippia over here. Isk does not a battle win. War maybe, but not a battle.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-08-28 12:57:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Tippia wrote:
in its current configuration, it does not work. So you come back to it in a different one, with upgraded skills or different modules. You experiment. You know that it works against other things, so you examine why it didn't against this one. You do all of this because you have that much more experience than if you only flew once you had satisfied some unreasonably high standard.


He comes back. Then he comes back again. And again. And again. Then he has a grasp of the fight, and realizes even with the correct approach he could not have won the fight without better modules, because there's no way he could have killed the target with his dps being half of what it could be, and his tank being made of wet paper. So he needs a proper fit, because his opponents will. If that's not the case, i encourage you to come to black rise in a derptron outside of large FW campaigns and see what you can achieve.

The problem still stands.


Ramona McCandless wrote:
The title says nothing about solo PvP

Why on earth would anyone do that if they had a choice?


Because that's how A LOT of new players approach pvp, out of curiosity, or because they can't find a decent corp accepting them, or simply because (like me) they enjoy the challenge of flying solo, which is a completely different experience than fleet action
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-08-28 12:58:29 UTC
so much stupidity could only come from minnie FW.

ALSO NPC farmer corp. are you farmer frigs getting too expensive ?

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Marc Durant
#93 - 2014-08-28 13:02:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Here is the part I always try to point out to people. When "the bad guys" get a convert, that person is HAPPY.


Over the years I've had numerous.... customers who instead of whining and pointing fingers started asking how I did it, why and what they could do. There's nothing better than to free a salvageable player from a **** zombie corp and show them the light.

gets even more funny if you explain to them how they can avoid you in the first place, teaching people about undock BMs while you're station camping them :P

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#94 - 2014-08-28 13:07:38 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:

Ramona McCandless wrote:
The title says nothing about solo PvP

Why on earth would anyone do that if they had a choice?


Because that's how A LOT of new players approach pvp, out of curiosity, or because they can't find a decent corp accepting them, or simply because (like me) they enjoy the challenge of flying solo, which is a completely different experience than fleet action


If they enjoy the challenge, then they will find plenty of that surviving in a 2.5m isk Kestrel.

If they cannot find a good corp or friends, they should train people skills before gunnery.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-08-28 13:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
I really like how these kind of posts teaching how to learn to pvp and what is good to fly in pvp and with whom come from characters with no pvp experience, or a few sparse kills over years in Jita and bubbly gatecamps.

Have the decency of posting with your main, or if that is your main, you should stick to giving advice to the parts of EVE you know.
Marc Durant
#96 - 2014-08-28 13:13:43 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
I really like how these kind of posts teaching how to learn to pvp and what is good to fly in pvp and with whom come from characters with no pvp experience, or a few sparse kills over years in Jita and bubbly gatecamps.

Have the decency of posting with your main, or if that is your main, you should stick to giving advice to the parts of EVE you know.


You mean like this?

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#97 - 2014-08-28 13:15:11 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
He comes back. Then he comes back again. And again. And again. Then he has a grasp of the fight, and realizes even with the correct approach he could not have won the fight without better modules, because there's no way he could have killed the target with his dps being half of what it could be, and his tank being made of wet paper.
…in other words, he did not need lose ten times the ISK just to learn this one thing.

Quote:
The problem still stands.
The problem is still imaginary. PvP costs as much as you want, for new players as well as old, and wilfully multiplying that cost for no good reason and with no real benefit is far more derp:y than the fit that bears the name.

Quote:
Because that's how A LOT of new players approach pvp
So, again, the problem is not ISK or cost but a lack of understanding, experience, and guidance.
Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2014-08-28 13:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Knuckles
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
The problem still stands.
The problem is still imaginary. PvP costs as much as you want, for new players as well as old, and wilfully multiplying that cost for no good reason and with no real benefit is far more derp:y than the fit that bears the name.
.


Ah now we're to the point where older players shouldnt fly t2 fit frigs either, because apparently actually having a chance at competing isn't a good reason.

Good to know!!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#99 - 2014-08-28 13:23:48 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
I really like how these kind of posts teaching how to learn to pvp and what is good to fly in pvp and with whom come from characters with no pvp experience, or a few sparse kills over years in Jita and bubbly gatecamps.

Have the decency of posting with your main, or if that is your main, you should stick to giving advice to the parts of EVE you know.


Fine ad hominem of a long aged vintage I see.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Marc Durant
#100 - 2014-08-28 13:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Durant
Isk can not make up for a lack of understanding but it can help increase performance once people truly understand how stuff works. But since most people, even "fierce" pvpers, are entirely clueless on how thing really work increasing cost won't help (much).

A newbie is not helped in any way by fitting expensively. He'll be taught the exact same lesson in a 10 million frig compared to flying a 2 mill one.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.