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Armour Repair Cycle Time Idea - Possible other modules too
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Lord Nohman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1 - 2014-08-20 16:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Nohman
Many pilots hate the role of armour logi primarily for the fact it can take so long to get reps on a target... a ship can be burned through before a pilot even has a chance to get a rep cycle to the needed party. Even when trying to predict when damage will get into armour to pre-run the rep can be hit and miss.

Note: This also applies to local rep armour ships

As such I am proposing that a spool up ability be added to the module where it can be activated in advance to reduce the time taken for the reps to apply when they are need (only for first cycle possible) . So lets say we have a recycle time of 12 seconds for each second the preload is activated it takes a second off the time, however once the cycle time hits 0 seconds the thermal damage increases significantly if the module isn't activated.

Eg. Rep Cycle:12s - Preload for 6s = Activation time of 6s for armour reps to apply

This could be applied to other modules however I think it would make running armour reps a bit more manageable Smile
Battle BV Master
Bacon Never Dies
#2 - 2014-08-20 16:25:08 UTC
Wrong forum -> Features & Ideas Discussion

Also my 2 cents, you could just stop sucking at being a logi pilot. But thats just me Shocked
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#3 - 2014-08-20 16:53:56 UTC
If you are having these issues maybe it's time to buffer tank.
Lord Nohman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#4 - 2014-08-20 18:01:24 UTC
Battle BV Master wrote:
Wrong forum -> Features & Ideas Discussion

Also my 2 cents, you could just stop sucking at being a logi pilot. But thats just me Shocked


Did I say these issues were directly related to me as a logi pilot no... I had heard a number of people mention it previously and thought of this idea.

Its also amazing how people rarely have anything constructive to say! I have no problem with people saying its a terrible idea, but needs to be accompanied by a reason and explanation Blink

Also maybe a admin can move the thread Smile
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#5 - 2014-08-20 19:54:18 UTC
No. I have flown logi for both armor and shields in both incursions and small gang and the ease of buffering a ship up properly to not get alpha'd is trivial. Now, for large fleets, this becomes a much larger problem, but as it is, reps are easy to catch on any ship not made of wet paper.

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Lord Nohman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#6 - 2014-08-20 20:15:22 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
No. I have flown logi for both armor and shields in both incursions and small gang and the ease of buffering a ship up properly to not get alpha'd is trivial. Now, for large fleets, this becomes a much larger problem, but as it is, reps are easy to catch on any ship not made of wet paper.


As have I both in pve, small and large gangs.

Reps are not that easy to catch in a number of situations (excluding pve) where there is alot of alpha on the field, the instant ability to shield rep gives a distinct advantage over armor. A good logi can make up for this but not mitigate unless there is multiple logi on field. Again is dependent on gang sizes etc.

It was just a thought and an idea for a new mechanic. It wasnt intended to make armour repping better per say but an option to have a first cycle in line with a shield booster. Say you on a gate fighting and you believe there are more coming you could spool up the rep and have it ready for instant repair on the first cycle if things got a little out of hand. However there would be the likelihood of burning the rep out quickly if not on the ball.
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-08-20 20:16:56 UTC
what they said: buffer armor or even use a Damage Control II to have some more HP to get reps :P
Lord Nohman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#8 - 2014-08-20 20:26:29 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
what they said: buffer armor or even use a Damage Control II to have some more HP to get reps :P


I know the mentality behind a buffer fit/dc Roll This just gives another option to fitting up a ship, in a long drawn out fight it wont help if you cant tank the dps but it does allow you to start your rep cycle with an armour rep a bit earlier just to get over the initial "oh ****" moment.

Wonder if the same comments were made when repair rigs were introduced Ugh
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-08-21 08:03:51 UTC
Doesn't sound a great idea to me.

1. I think variety is good for the game; it's good that shield and armor reps behave differently

2. Not sure what this would change, anyway. Yes you'd have a slightly higher chance to rep the first dude in time, but what about the second dude and onwards?

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Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#10 - 2014-08-21 08:22:57 UTC
Having flown pretty much every armour logistics imaginable (Including Augorors, Oneiros, Guardians and both Pantheon and Triage Archons) I can easily say that armour reps cycling at the end adds depth and variety and requires pilots to plan ahead, this makes things more interesting and enjoyable, apart from that its simply a balancing feature, armour ships generally have more EHP than shield ones so cycles at the start for shield increases its viability.

There are a hundred different ways to increase your EHP from simply changing up your fitting to using command links and having a slave clone, use one or a combination of these things to increase your chances of surviving.
Lord Nohman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#11 - 2014-08-21 08:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Nohman
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Having flown pretty much every armour logistics imaginable (Including Augorors, Oneiros, Guardians and both Pantheon and Triage Archons) I can easily say that armour reps cycling at the end adds depth and variety and requires pilots to plan ahead, this makes things more interesting and enjoyable, apart from that its simply a balancing feature, armour ships generally have more EHP than shield ones so cycles at the start for shield increases its viability.

There are a hundred different ways to increase your EHP from simply changing up your fitting to using command links and having a slave clone, use one or a combination of these things to increase your chances of surviving.




Agreed it does make for depth and the requirement for planning ahead, btw I am not sating this is limited to remote armour reps. the change wouldnt effect the module for the duration of the fight just the initial first phase. The pilot would still need to think ahead and manage his cycles/cap etc etc. This just gives an option to potentially delay a cycle for a few extra seconds if the pilot thought it would be beneficially or that a target was going to become a primary. It would introduce a heat damage penalty to a weapon so it wouldnt be used willy-nily....

As for the Slaves/Command Links this isnt always available to all players from either a cost/skills or gang size/no. of accounts. There are a number of factors to why slaves/command links wouldnt be possible....
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-08-21 14:32:21 UTC
If people dislike the "end of cycle" way of remote armor rep, maybe they should go shield...
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#13 - 2014-08-22 12:30:22 UTC
If you or your logis are having trouble catching people, rather than invent a "pre-charge" mechanic to front load the reps you could always use existing mechanics...
Sacrifice a bit of repping power and fit a 2 second cycle small remote rep or two - or perhaps have a couple of guys reship to Inquisitors (not always practical I know).

Yes, your overall rep output is reduced - but if the existing rep isn't keeping people alive anyway perhaps you should look at using it smarter rather than just using more.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#14 - 2014-08-22 15:53:50 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
If you or your logis are having trouble catching people, rather than invent a "pre-charge" mechanic to front load the reps you could always use existing mechanics...
Sacrifice a bit of repping power and fit a 2 second cycle small remote rep or two - or perhaps have a couple of guys reship to Inquisitors (not always practical I know).

Yes, your overall rep output is reduced - but if the existing rep isn't keeping people alive anyway perhaps you should look at using it smarter rather than just using more.


Once you have fleets of 100+ DPS ships it becomes impossible to catch and rep an armor tanked target IF the DPS ships co-ordinate their first shot (Hint: They do). The only reps with 'faster cycle time' (other than complex reps) are smalls, which are entirely incapable of repping enough to stop that level of DPS. Medium + Large reps = 4.5 second cycle.

To put it in context, 1500 damage alpha isn't all that much to expect from a ship. 100 ships makes that 150k alpha damage.

4.5 second cycle time
AFTER
Activating reps + 1 second server tick
AFTER
1-2 second lock time + server tick
AFTER
1 second server tick for broadcast

Thats around 6-8 seconds before reps land, assuming perfect reaction times from all involved. Against THAT MUCH alpha, it only takes 2 gun cycles to kill ANY sub capital ship (excluding slaved T3's/command ships with +% Armor HP bonuses). It means that - logistically - armor fleets are not-viable after a certain size of fleet faces you.

Shield reps landing at the start of the cycle are so much more powerful for large non-capital fleets.

Capital fleets though, thanks to slaves, are dominated by armour tankers.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#15 - 2014-08-22 22:41:57 UTC
If you insist on using armor fleets, you do it to yourself.

Go shield.

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Lord Nohman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#16 - 2014-08-25 13:31:45 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
If you insist on using armor fleets, you do it to yourself.

Go shield.


I think the issue is that armour fleets should be as viable as shield fleets at x number of members in fleet but have drawbacks such as speed/agility etc. Not that they should be incapable of repping incoming DPS like Maeltstome has pointed out in detail....
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#17 - 2014-08-27 07:15:07 UTC
Did not read everything, but it looks like you want armor and shield to be more the same. Does this mean your support slaves for shield also? (or any other idea to make armor = shield)
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#18 - 2014-08-27 08:17:42 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Did not read everything, but it looks like you want armor and shield to be more the same. Does this mean your support slaves for shield also? (or any other idea to make armor = shield)


Slaves only really become an issue at supercap+. Below that shield boats normally have the EHP advantage.

You CAN brick sub-cap armor shisp to insane EHP levels but this gimps their combat ability most of the time. Shield boats on the other hand remain fully combat ready and still get sick EHP.

When i say shield boats i mean ships designed to use shield tanks, not Ishtars/Deimos/etc. who use buffer to cram in more damage mods.