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The great T3 rebalance
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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#121 - 2014-08-26 11:17:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.


What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited.


You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets.

Having a ship that is uncatchable is never a good thing.


Only its not uncatchable, though admittedly harder to catch in k space than w space.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2014-08-26 11:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
baltec1 wrote:

Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser.


Fail


* The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD
* The eagle has better damage projection
* The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD
* The eagle has better lock range
* The eagle has better scan res
* The eagle has higher shield resistances

Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Corben Arctus
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#123 - 2014-08-26 11:27:44 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Since the balancing pass to most of the sub caps, i don't see how T3 ships can be considered overpowered anymore.

Well if you compare a Tengu to an Eagle or a Cerberus, there is little point in using the laters.

I suppose the same applies with every other race, except maybe the Protheus/Ishtar.



Wait what? A Cerberus is faster, cheaper, and has better projection than a Tengu. (Disregarding super bling 100MN AB fit, but then again, cheaper).
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2014-08-26 12:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Odithia
Rek Seven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser.


Fail


* The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD
* The eagle has better damage projection
* The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD
* The eagle has better lock range
* The eagle has better scan res
* The eagle has higher shield resistances

Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all.

They use them with AB not MWD.


Corben Arctus wrote:


Wait what? A Cerberus is faster, cheaper, and has better projection than a Tengu. (Disregarding super bling 100MN AB fit, but then again, cheaper).

It is faster and has more projection but the Tengu already has plenty enough projection.
But the tengu does more damage and tank better, so it is pretty much always prefered.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#125 - 2014-08-26 14:34:22 UTC
Elisiist Aldent wrote:
T3 is kinda the jack of all trades. Just the problem with a jack of all trades is that whatever the T3 can do.. something can do better!


ORLY? What else got BS EHP with better resists, BC damage and damage application, while being more mobile than both...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2014-08-26 14:37:05 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser.


Fail


* The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD
* The eagle has better damage projection
* The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD
* The eagle has better lock range
* The eagle has better scan res
* The eagle has higher shield resistances

Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all.



FAIL you have no idea how to fit a tengu just by your very first line.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2014-08-26 14:37:51 UTC
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Elisiist Aldent wrote:
T3 is kinda the jack of all trades. Just the problem with a jack of all trades is that whatever the T3 can do.. something can do better!


ORLY? What else got BS EHP with better resists, BC damage and damage application, while being more mobile than both...


no no no you are wrong. Proteus has MORE ehp than battleships and mroe damage than most of them... :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#128 - 2014-08-26 15:08:52 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
being uncatchable is not an acceptable capability. No matter the price. Specially now that you can refit in space.

Such famous group of PvPers as PoH can't catch T3s, shame...
On my current skills tengu align times with nullifier:
4,7s wihtout agility rigs (such an offensieve monster this is, i can tell you , 90 dps in non combat explo fit)
3,7s with rigs
2,9s with rigs and implants

Solution would be decrease agility on nullifier subsystem to give opportunity window.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
On my view the cloaky subsystem needs to go, replaced by some proper different offensive subsystem. (like an anti frigate focused one for each race).

Merc want a fight, merc removing covop, but buff offensive!!!. How many possibilites for merc...so few for ppl who don't want to fight.

You want to remove cloak? Why not nerf scanning abilities, then hacking strenght to 5, so much generalistion nerf, so wow...much like. From ship with many roles and fits, 3 will last.

Fitting argument? like i will be refiting tengu for every jump in null...because of reason. Don't you want to nerf T2 haulers? I can build fit that align faster than my tengu, how's about that?

baltec1 wrote:
Having a ship that is uncatchable is never a good thing.


Neiher are ship that can insta lock and scram. Having ships that can't pass gate camps is even worser. Why do you think they allowing MWD trick?

baltec1 wrote:
You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets.

What keeps you from using it now as they is? Removing covert cloak make this hull worse than SoE ships. Generalisation, so much tears i predict, funny times ahead, just can't waitBig smile

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#129 - 2014-08-26 17:14:07 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

What keeps you from using it now as they is?

Why would you when you can just warp out of a bubble cloaked?


Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Removing covert cloak make this hull worse than SoE ships. Generalisation, so much tears i predict, funny times ahead, just can't waitBig smile


I didn't say remove the cov ops cloak, just don't allow it to be used with the nullifier. You have to be an utter moron to be caught when using a cloaky nullified t3.
Sir Livingston
Doomheim
#130 - 2014-08-26 17:30:18 UTC
It appears that some people don't understand logic.

Tech 1 < Tech 2 < Tech 3

Tech 3 was designed to be the most powerful.
Stating that they shouldn't be most powerful is absurd.

Sci-fi games as played by an earthbound human in the 21st century http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2014-08-26 17:42:23 UTC
Sir Livingston wrote:
It appears that some people don't understand logic.

Tech 1 < Tech 2 < Tech 3

Tech 3 was designed to be the most powerful.
Stating that they shouldn't be most powerful is absurd.


CCP themselves have stated that T3 are going to land between T1 and T2. Here is a handy and easy to read chart
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#132 - 2014-08-26 17:43:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

I didn't say remove the cov ops cloak, just don't allow it to be used with the nullifier. You have to be an utter moron to be caught when using a cloaky nullified t3.


I've not had much luck with it myself but I don't really fly small ships and not really practised at it - but some people I know have a fairly good record for decloaking, bumping out of alignment and killing nullified cloaky t3s - sure no guarantee they will catch someone but that is how it should be.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2014-08-26 17:53:27 UTC
Rroff wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

I didn't say remove the cov ops cloak, just don't allow it to be used with the nullifier. You have to be an utter moron to be caught when using a cloaky nullified t3.


I've not had much luck with it myself but I don't really fly small ships and not really practised at it - but some people I know have a fairly good record for decloaking, bumping out of alignment and killing nullified cloaky t3s - sure no guarantee they will catch someone but that is how it should be.


No you don't. By the time you see it and point your cepter at its general location it is already in warp. Even cepter fleets don't bother trying to catch them.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#134 - 2014-08-26 17:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
baltec1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


That's why you flew Drake, Maelstrom, and Megathron fleets, right? Roll

The Tengu needs good prop and engineering subs. There is only one good PVP sub for each, shoehorning the Tengu into a 100mn AB missile boat. As for the tank, I've said that the buffer subs should have a 5% bonus, not a 10% bonus. Paired with decent prop/engineering subs, the Tengu will be balanced.

That seems to be the only T3 you can complain about, so are we done yet?
And regardless, the decisions will be made by CCP. Let's just hope they do it right the first time, rather than half assing it like they did with HACs (we ended up with OP Ishtars and shitall useless Muninns).


We retired drake fleet because the tengu is better at being a drake. The drake nerf was just the final nail in the coffin.

Loki, legion and tengu are better at being command ships than command ships. The Legion is better at being a Zealot than a Zealot. We use the web Loki and a point proteus over the dedicated t2 ships, the Legion is much better at being a pilgrim than the pilgrim.

There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.


The command ships thing need to be balanced, yes. Zealot is still ****. Loki and Proteus recon fits are tankier, but have less range. Also Recons haven't had their balance pass, so it's a moot point. Pilgrim is laughably bad.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time.


What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited.



being uncatchable is not an acceptable capability. No matter the price. Specially now that you can refit in space.

On my view the cloaky subsystem needs to go, replaced by some proper different offensive subsystem. (like an anti frigate focused one for each race).


I'd rather keep the cloaky sub and scrap the nullifier sub if that's how we're doing it. I like cloaky T3s. Alternatively, nullifier subs could have a comparatively awful align time.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#135 - 2014-08-26 18:02:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

No you don't. By the time you see it and point your cepter at its general location it is already in warp. Even cepter fleets don't bother trying to catch them.


Depends a bit on whether you get lucky or not with the server tick(s) and skills/implants/fit/pimp of the t3.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#136 - 2014-08-26 18:08:04 UTC
Rroff wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

No you don't. By the time you see it and point your cepter at its general location it is already in warp. Even cepter fleets don't bother trying to catch them.


Depends a bit on whether you get lucky or not with the server tick(s) and skills/implants/fit/pimp of the t3.


You will always cloak before anything can target you and you do not need to pimp anything to get into warp before anything decloaks you. They only way you will be caught is if you mess up badly.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#137 - 2014-08-26 18:18:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Why would you when you can just warp out of a bubble cloaked?


I can still warp out from bubble cloaked, not to mention i would be waking in fresh clone soon after. Burning through bubble in T3? Blind would find me.

baltec1 wrote:
You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets.


You can use nullifier in fleets now, why making change to nerf solo players? You still have the oportuinity to build nullifed combat ships but covert t3 is an abomination. Becuase you don't bother to do proper gate camp?
There shouldn't be situation that there are no escape from gate camp. One kind of ship have that ability, not cheap, skill heavy, with SP loss drawback. Why covert cloak is so overpowerd to you anyway? 100% cloaked speed? I don't think MWD+cloak trick would be worser from covops cloak warping on agility rigged/implanted T3.

Sir Livingston wrote:
Tech 3 was designed to be the most powerful.
Stating that they shouldn't be most powerful is absurd.


CCP logic. I hope they remove SP loss.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2014-08-26 18:32:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser.


Fail


* The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD
* The eagle has better damage projection
* The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD
* The eagle has better lock range
* The eagle has better scan res
* The eagle has higher shield resistances

Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all.



FAIL you have no idea how to fit a tengu just by your very first line.


So you're saying that a tengu with an ab is faster than an eagle with a MWD? Straight You know nothing... Either way what i said was 100% correct regardless of what prop mod you choose to fit.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#139 - 2014-08-26 19:28:12 UTC
Extra sub-systems for all sub-system types?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-08-26 19:37:00 UTC
As I said a couple months ago in a T3 rebalance thread, here's what I would do :

T3s' gimmick is to be reconfigurable to adapt to the situation. But who really reconfigures a single T3 for different tasks ? No one. They just buy 3 hulls and fit each accordingly.

Remove rigs :

Rigs are a costly waste, etc etc.

Subsystems should amount for a very small percentage of the ships' price :

If subsystems are 50M/100M a pop, well, I'll only carry maybe one replacement set and that will be it. Where's the adaptability here ?

Subsystems should have a very low volume so that every T3 can have a nice handful of them to match different situations.

If carrying 10 subs (That's 2 complete transformation of your ship in your cargohold) fills the cargo...well it's no good.

Every "potential setup" should be viable if not good :

Drone-Proteus sucks. T3 logistics suck. Drone-Legion sucks. Shield Loki is sub-par. Shield Proteus is nowhere to be seen, could be an interesting setup. HM Legion anyone ? RLML Tengu maybe ? You get the idea. Every potential use for a T3 should be valid and not suck completely like T3 logistics.

T3s should more-or-less match other cruisers :

Currently, they sure have LOADS of EHP, but damn their mobility sucks compared to every other cruisers. Maybe some "heavy duty" setups (like brick-tank Proteus) should keep the low mobility in exchange for high EHP, but some other setups should have HAC-tanks with HAC-mobility, see what I mean ?

Cut down their DPS in brick-tank setups, keep their good DPS in HAC-like configs, etc

T3s should be able to refit in space :

If possible, T3s should be able to refit off themselves with conditions : Not having been shot at for 5 minutes, Takes 1-2 minutes to change subs. No cap-consumption for onlining/fitting modules.

With those changes, this is what you get :

T3s are no longer BS-sized tanks with Command-ship-sized DPS. In brick-tank versions, they have low DPS. In HAC-tank version, they are fast like HACs and hit like HAC+.

You can have a fleet of T3s. A true fleet of T3s. This is what I want to see :

10 Legions, 2 Lokis, 4 Proteus.

"Guys, we're encountering Ishtars !"

"Legions, I want 4 of you to switch from brick-tank setup to logistic setup, Lokis, switch to recon-setup with long-range webs. Proteus, switch from heavy DPS to long-range tackle. I also want 2 Legions to switch to long-range neuting setup !"

"Guys, they're switching to short-range Megas !"

"Legions, I want 6 logis, we can tank their DPS. Lokis, fit for full DPS, load Fusion ammo. 2 Proteus for full DPS, 2 Proteus for full damp !"

"Guys, capitals ! Legions, 5 of you switch to neuting setup. Lokis, switch to armor logi, Proteus, full DPS !"

That's what I want to see. Adaptability should be the name of the game. Effectiveness should more or less match their equivalent T2 cruiser in their area of expertise. Price should remain the same but should shift from subs to hull.

If you remove one thing from that list, well, it breaks the whole thing.

Refit from station/carrier ? Well, might as well dock and undock another ship.

Subs keep their current price ? You'll carry a couple subs but that's it, no wider adaptability. If T3s keep their bricktank-niceDPS+recon scheme, everyone will just keep that cookie-cutter setup and just add T3 logistics to it, which shouldn't happen.

T3s should be able to reach every end of the cruiser-meta spectrum. Slow-fat-solid-lowDPS, Fast-agile-lowtank-highDPS, Fast-agile-goodRecon-lowDPS, Slow-fat-solid-LogisticCapabilities etc.

This is, imo, the most interesting and effective way to change T3s to match CCP's will to rebalance and change things until they're interesting and flyable.